Are Corporations Evil ?

[Bonam]

In my view a corporation is a piece of paper that reflects the good and evil of its stakeholders; shareholders, creditors and employees. If corporations did not exist economic growth would not occur since people could not limit their exposure to risk.

Not completely true. We did have economic growth prior to corporations. I think it's safe to say that entrepreneurs would take lower risks if they had to operate their companies as proprietorships/partnerships, which would certainly slow growth and innovation, but it wouldn't cause it to "not occur".

[jbg]

Not completely true. We did have economic growth prior to corporations. I think it's safe to say that entrepreneurs would take lower risks if they had to operate their companies as proprietorships/partnerships, which would certainly slow growth and innovation, but it wouldn't cause it to "not occur".

Agreed. I overstated a bit.

[Bonam]

While perhaps no longer applicable to China, in many underdeveloped nations, a 20c/hour job can mean the difference between starving to death in the streets and being able to afford food and shelter.

I see a problem with that justification though... it could be used for just about anything. You could even make the same argument about slavery because at least africans sold into slavery were mostly given food and shelter, which is more than many other Africans had.

No, the same argument does not apply to slavery. When someone takes the 20c/hour job voluntarily, they have a choice. They have exercised their free will to make the choice that they believe is optimal out of the options that they see as available to them. In the case of slavery, it is someone else that forces the slave to do something, and takes away their ability to act in their own self-interest.

We buy stuff from communist countries and autocratic regimes because its cheaper to make stuff in places where workers have no rights, shitty lives, and no political representation. Well no DUH its cheaper! I bet ya we could have bought cheap stuff from Soviet gulags during the cold war too! Todays generation probably WOULD have.

Yeah and workers in autocratic regimes are only too happy to take jobs that have been shipped overseas by North American companies, causing unemployment rates here to soar and wages to stagnate. How could they be so cruel? They should think about all the people they are putting out of work before agreeing to take the 20c/hour jobs.

This line of thinking is fruitless. People act in their own self-interest. It is their nature to act in their own interest, and it is folly to expect them to act otherwise.

[TimG]

Not completely true. We did have economic growth prior to corporations. I think it's safe to say that entrepreneurs would take lower risks if they had to operate their companies as proprietorships/partnerships, which would certainly slow growth and innovation, but it wouldn't cause it to "not occur".

Corporations allow businesses to grow by providing access to a greater pool of capital - capital that would not be available if the investors had to assume liability for the actions of the corporation. Partnerships can only rely on the capital of the partners. The net result is most business requiring a lot of upfront capital and uncertain prospects would never be created. Edited September 2, 2011 by TimG

[dre]

No, the same argument does not apply to slavery. When someone takes the 20c/hour job voluntarily, they have a choice. They have exercised their free will to make the choice that they believe is optimal out of the options that they see as available to them. In the case of slavery, it is someone else that forces the slave to do something, and takes away their ability to act in their own self-interest.

Yeah and workers in autocratic regimes are only too happy to take jobs that have been shipped overseas by North American companies, causing unemployment rates here to soar and wages to stagnate. How could they be so cruel? They should think about all the people they are putting out of work before agreeing to take the 20c/hour jobs.

This line of thinking is fruitless. People act in their own self-interest. It is their nature to act in their own interest, and it is folly to expect them to act otherwise.

No, the same argument does not apply to slavery. When someone takes the 20c/hour job voluntarily, they have a choice. They have exercised their free will to make the choice that they believe is optimal out of the options that they see as available to them. In the case of slavery, it is someone else that forces the slave to do something, and takes away their ability to act in their own self-interest.

The justification you made was that workers being treated like human cattle and living in abject squallor might have been even worse off. You could say the same thing about slaves. I never said those two things were the same, I said that justfication could be applied.

It sets the bar pretty low. I might try to find a way to set it just a bit higher.

Yeah and workers in autocratic regimes are only too happy to take jobs that have been shipped overseas by North American companies, causing unemployment rates here to soar and wages to stagnate. How could they be so cruel? They should think about all the people they are putting out of work before agreeing to take the 20c/hour jobs.

Dunno what youre on about here. thats definately not a response to anything that I said.

This line of thinking is fruitless. People act in their own self-interest. It is their nature to act in their own interest, and it is folly to expect them to act otherwise.

Sure, but you invented it out of thin air. I never said I expected them to act otherwise.

[Bonam]

Dunno what youre on about here. thats definately not a response to anything that I said.

Your implication was that there's something wrong with buying stuff from places where workers "have no rights, shitty lives, and no political representation". Why is this morally wrong in your opinion? Because we thereby benefit from the suffering of these workers? I was making the point that people in developing nations are also benefiting from our "suffering", they are only too happy to take the jobs that people here have lost. We act in our interest by buying cheap stuff, they act in their interest by taking these jobs. There's no moral wrong being perpetrated.

[CitizenX]

Your implication was that there's something wrong with buying stuff from places where workers "have no rights, shitty lives, and no political representation". Why is this morally wrong in your opinion? Because we thereby benefit from the suffering of these workers? I was making the point that people in developing nations are also benefiting from our "suffering", they are only too happy to take the jobs that people here have lost. We act in our interest by buying cheap stuff, they act in their interest by taking these jobs. There's no moral wrong being perpetrated.

A typical conservative response. Blame the poor people being taken advantage of. I have a new question, are Conservatives Evil?

[bloodyminded]

A typical conservative response. Blame the poor people being taken advantage of. I have a new question, are Conservatives Evil?

I don't think that's even a serious question.

Don't you personally know any people with conservative leanings?

[CitizenX]

I don't think that's even a serious question.

Don't you personally know any people with conservative leanings?

1/4 serious, and no not really.

[Bonam]

...and no not really.

That would explain a few things. It's easy to dehumanize a class of people you've never met or talked to. And living in an insulated bubble of non-conservatives would certainly make you unaware of their viewpoints and rationales for those viewpoints.

[Michael Hardner]

This conversation explains why we have two solitudes of politics today.

We come together, rarely, in life - except on MLW of course.

Politics in the past was more one-on-one, more fractious in a certain way, and more driven towards compromises. It had to be, because your opponents lived next door to you and attended town meetings with you. They weren't "web handles" halfway across the country.

[jacee]

I don't think that's even a serious question.

Don't you personally know any people with conservative leanings?

I do. I wouldn't say 'evil' but misguided. Its my observation that they are driven by greed for money and power (the winners, the rich and superrich) or fear of the greedy and powerful (the losers, the money-shovellers, the non-unionized workers).

It's all Type A anxiety based neurosis.

[CitizenX]

That would explain a few things. It's easy to dehumanize a class of people you've never met or talked to. And living in an insulated bubble of non-conservatives would certainly make you unaware of their viewpoints and rationales for those viewpoints.

Actions speak louder than words. jacee stated "I wouldn't say 'evil' but misguided", This might be a better characterization. I would use the word Ignorant in the Buddhist sense.

[jacee]

Actions speak louder than words. jacee stated "I wouldn't say 'evil' but misguided", This might be a better characterization. I would use the word Ignorant in the Buddhist sense.

I do believe anxiety/fear is significant, and played upon, and I forgot to mention the elderly who disproportionately vote Conservative. It remains to be seen whether that will hold true for aging boomers. I suspect not.

[TimG]

I do believe anxiety/fear is significant, and played upon, and I forgot to mention the elderly who disproportionately vote Conservative.

Anxiety/fear are not unique to the elderly. Al Gore has built a career playing on the anxiety/fears with his doomsday cult. Most of the people that buy into his cult are young people. Edited September 8, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

Anxiety/fear are not unique to the elderly. Al Gore has built a career playing on the anxiety/fears with his doomsday cult. Most of the people that buy into his cult are young people.

Here comes the climate change denier. Another poor misguided and ignorant Conservative. You want to talk about a cult, take a look at the one your in Tim. The cult of Money, Consumption, and Egoism.

Edited September 8, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

Another poor misguided and ignorant Conservative

Gee. Childish name calling. How mature. Am I supposed to be impressed?

[CitizenX]

Gee. Childish name calling. How mature. Am I supposed to be impressed?

No, you should take a long look at your beliefs and be Depressed.

[TimG]

No, you should take a long look at your beliefs and be Depressed.

I only get sad when I see the idiot rantings of a zealot who thinks that anyone who does not agree with him is either stupid or evil.

[bloodyminded]

This conversation explains why we have two solitudes of politics today.

We come together, rarely, in life - except on MLW of course.

Politics in the past was more one-on-one, more fractious in a certain way, and more driven towards compromises. It had to be, because your opponents lived next door to you and attended town meetings with you. They weren't "web handles" halfway across the country.

Good points, but I nonetheless find this all a bit odd, even difficult to believe.

It's not that I hop about discussing politics all the time--rarely, in fact. But I have always been surrounded by people of different political persuasions; not through effort, either, but simply because that's the way it is...which is really my point. So uiltimately, I don't see any important distictions, on a personal level, between lefties and righties. My own lived experience informs me that such divisions scarcely exist.

[Michael Hardner]

But I have always been surrounded by people of different political persuasions; not through effort, either, but simply because that's the way it is...

I don't meet many people like you. How is it that you meet people that are so diverse in their views ?

[bloodyminded]

I don't meet many people like you. How is it that you meet people that are so diverse in their views ?

Honestly, this only adds to my confusion. I took it for granted that my situation was totally un-unique. Consider:

Yes, most of my friends have leaned leftwards politically, give or take; but not all of them. (And some...i couldn't even say, really). One of best friends was a big supporter of the Iraq War, lamented Canada's error, and really admired the "neocons" as great "idealists." ()

Me and my sisters are both idiot lefties, but my parents are both conservative...not far right, no, but certainly conservative (small and large "C"). The rare times where political issues have been discussed in various workplaces, the views have seemed very politically diverse indeed.

I took it for granted that this was normal life for everybody...at least, outside of peculiarly one-note voting regions, like Alberta.

Edited September 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Michael Hardner]

I took it for granted that this was normal life for everybody...at least, outside of peculiarly one-note voting regions, like Alberta.

And I took it for granted that most people lived in enclaves of likeminded folks. Who is right ? Who knows ?

Time for a new poll !

[CitizenX]

I only get sad when I see the idiot rantings of a zealot who thinks that anyone who does not agree with him is either stupid or evil.

I never said you were stupid or evil Tim. You might have trouble with your reading comprehension. You always seem to take what I say and twist it around. I said you were a "poor misguided and ignorant Conservative". I used the word ignorant in the buddhist sense. The Ego is the root of all evil. ( This is a universal truth )

Edited September 8, 2011 by CitizenX

[CitizenX]

And I took it for granted that most people lived in enclaves of likeminded folks. Who is right ? Who knows ?

Time for a new poll !

I posted this video earlier on this site. I think people could learn a great deal from it.

Jonathan Haidt on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives