Are Corporations Evil ?

[TimG]

You always seem to take what I say and twist it around.

No I explain to you what the words you use are actually interpreted to mean (which can be quite different from what the dictionary might say). Whatever your excuse you seem intent on proving my point. Edited September 8, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

This topic has started going off the rails. The question was, do you believe corporations are evil.

1) What is your definition of evil?

2) What kind of entity is a corporation? It is legally a person.

3) Can you affix the word evil to the concept Corporation?

Some articles

Are Corporations Evil?

Why Good People Do Bad Things

Political Hotwire Forum Are Corporations Evil?

Edited September 9, 2011 by CitizenX

[Bonam]

Honestly, this only adds to my confusion. I took it for granted that my situation was totally un-unique. Consider:

I took that for granted as well. The people I know represent a wide range of views, from liberals to libertarians, from atheists to the deeply religious.

[CitizenX]

Furthermore, while corporations are recognized as legal persons for the purpose of some laws, that does not mean that corporations are humans and can be ascribed the same psychological or moral characteristics.

Can a group of people be evil? examples KKK, Nazi's, Khmer Rouge, ect.. Individually the people in the group might be good but because they are part of a group and can defer responsibility or they are afraid of their own safety they commit evil acts.

Evil is a well-defined term in the Unified Theory of Ethics, a recently-introduced new paradigm for an old field of study. In this new (yet old) discipline, the concept evil is defined as: the dis-valuation of an individual.

This dis-valuing can be done by a person, a thing, or a system, but if the dignity of the individual is violated evil is present. Ethics directs us to treat individuals with respect and to refrain from harming them.

Edited September 9, 2011 by CitizenX

[CitizenX]

Exactly....the "good vs. evil" debate is just another subjective argument with no definitive resolution.

Are Laws against things like murder or rape subjective? Is murder or rape against the law because it's a universal immoral or evil act? Or is murder against the law because it infringes upon your rights?

Edited September 9, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

This dis-valuing can be done by a person, a thing, or a system, but if the dignity of the individual is violated evil is present. Ethics directs us to treat individuals with respect and to refrain from harming them.

Gee. By that definition unions are evil because the violate the dignity of the individual by compelling them to join strike actions. Environmental groups are evil because they wish to deny people access to cheap and reliable power. Edited September 9, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

Gee. By that definition unions are evil because the violate the dignity of the individual by compelling them to join strike actions. Environmental groups are evil because they wish to deny people access to cheap and reliable power.

Tim you don't seem capable of contributing to this subject maturely. Why do you take an attack on corporations so personally? The enemy (Environmental groups,and unions) of your friend (Corporations) is your enemy?

This topic has started going off the rails. The question was, do you believe corporations are evil.

1) What is your definition of evil?

2) What kind of entity is a corporation? It is legally a person.

3) Can you affix the word evil to the concept Corporation?

Edited September 9, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

Tim you don't seem capable of contributing to this subject maturely.

No - you don't see to understand how ridiculous your ravings are. I am simply pointing out the contradictions.

So please answer my question: why aren't unions and environmental groups evil based on the definition you provided?

I am sure you will not answer (because you can't) or will change your definition of 'evil' to only include those actions which you personally disapprove of (not a very good position)

If you have any ability to self-reflect.

1) What is your definition of evil?

I don't generally don't use the word. If I do it applies to people who deliberately kill or inflict physical harm on other people. Accidental or unintended harm does not qualify.

That said, everyone (and every organization) is fundamentally selfish. Even if they do things that are superficially altruistic you will usually find a selfish motive (e.g. status seeking, ego gratification). This means people and organizations are amoral and the terms good and evil do not apply.

That said, you can have acts which are 'moral' or 'immoral'. Companies driven by the profit motive often do things which are 'moral' because it is in their self interest. They can also do things which are 'immoral'. Neither makes a company intrinsically 'moral' or 'immoral'.

Edited September 9, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

No - you don't see to understand how ridiculous your ravings are. I am simply pointing out the contradictions.

What ravings, and what contradictions? It was a philosophical question, and I put forth my views. Because you disagree it's ravings?

So please answer my question: why aren't unions and environmental groups evil based on the definition you provided?

I am sure you will not answer (because you can't) or will change your definition of 'evil' to only include those actions which you personally disapprove of (not a very good position)

First it's not my definition. As usual you have taken what have said and twisted it to your benefit. It was the definition put forth by the Unified Theory of Ethics. I simply put it in as an example of someone else's definition. I stated my definition earlier (Page 1, entry 1)

"Evil is the absence of Empathy and Compassion"

.

But using this definition I'll give it a go.

Unions don't violate the dignity of the individual. They were created to defend the dignity of it's member's, through proper working hours, benefits, and wages.

Environmental groups don't violate the dignity of the individual by wishing to deny people access to cheap and reliable power (this doesn't even make sense). They are concerned with the welfare of humanity, and wildlife. It is the job of the corporations to cut corners enviromentally to create more profits, and it's the job of Environmentalists to call attention to this.

I don't generally don't use the word. If I do it applies to people who deliberately kill or inflict physical harm on other people. Accidental or unintended harm does not qualify.

So any military action is evil? White collar crime that steals the retirement savings of old people isn't? I'm not poking fun at you, I just don't think that you have put much thought to the subject.

That said, everyone (and every organization) is fundamentally selfish. Even if they do things that are superficially altruistic you will usually find a selfish motive (e.g. status seeking, ego gratification). This means people and organizations are amoral and the terms good and evil do not apply.

You might be correct in saying that people are fundamentally selfish. But it doesn't mean "people and organizations are amoral and the terms good and evil do not apply". You don't think that groups of people like the KKK, Nazi's, Khmer Rouge, ect are evil. They "deliberately killed and inflict physical harm on other people."

That said, you can have acts which are 'moral' or 'immoral'. Companies driven by the profit motive often do things which are 'moral' because it is in their self interest.

I would say the only reason Companies do moral things is profit motivated. It's all about their image.

Edited September 9, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

Unions don't violate the dignity of the individual. They were created to defend the dignity of it's member's, through proper working hours, benefits, and wages.

Yet they violate the dignity of the individual if that individual does wish to join a strike action. Some unions even resort to physical violence and vandalism when people cross the picket line.

Environmental groups don't violate the dignity of the individual by wishing to deny people access to cheap and reliable power (this doesn't even make sense). They are concerned with the welfare of humanity, and wildlife.

An in the question to protect "humanity they push governments to adopt policies that will leave people without heat in the winter because they can't afford it. That is what is happening in the UK.

Remember, the definition you referenced did not indicate that motivation was a justification for denying people dignity. It only said that "if the dignity of the individual is violated evil is present". In the case of unions and environmental groups you attempted to justify the violation of human dignity because of the motivations for doing so.

So please clarify: do the motivations make and act evil or the act it itself?

If the former then you are contradicting your own source.

I would say the only reason Companies do moral things is profit motivated. It's all about their image.

Image is the only reason individuals do moral things too. What is your point? Edited September 9, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

Yet the violate the dignaty of the individual if that individual does wish to join a strike action. Some unions even restort to physical violance and vandalism when people cross the picket line.

I don't understand what you are trying to say in the first sentence. Yes I suppose that some unions resort to violence in protecting it's members jobs. I'm not in a union so I can't speak to this. Anyone or group is capable of committing immoral or evil acts but this is not the main purpose of the union.

An in the question to protect "humanity they push governments to adopt policies that will leave people without heat in the winter because they can't afford it. That is what is happening in the UK.

Remember, the definition you referenced did not indicate that motivation was a justification for denying people dignaty. It only said that "if the dignity of the individual is violated evil is present". In the case of unions and environmental groups you attempted to justify the violation of human dignity because of the motivations for doing so.

I think you are really stretching here. If environmentalists push for policies changes that is because they are needed for the good of society. People used to burn coal in the UK to the detriment of the health of everyone else. Does this mean that they should be permitted.

So please clarify: do the motivations make and act evil or the act it itself?

If the former then you are contradicting your own source.

Image is the only reason individuals do moral things too. What is your point?

Yes I believe that motivations make and act evil.

No Image is not why most individuals do moral things. Most people I know do moral things because they want to live in a better world. You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi

[TimG]

Yes I suppose that some unions resort to violence in protecting it's members jobs.

All unions impose penalities on workers who do no comply with their edicts. All unions deny workers the basic right to choose whether they wish to participate in the union. It is inherent in the structure of the union.

If environmentalists push for policies changes that is because they are needed for the good of society.

Environmentalists push for policies that, according to their belief system, are good for society. That does not mean they are actually good for society. Look at the Catholic Church which has long opposed birth control and abortion "for the good of society". Environmental groups are just another type of organized religion.

Yes I believe that motivations make and act evil.

Then we can dispense with the source you provided earlier which left motivations out of the picture.

No Image is not why most individuals do moral things. Most people I know do moral things because they want to live in a better world.

A better world? What does that mean? In most real life cases it means stomping on others and denying their right to dignity. In most cases, a 'better world' means something is better for the person asking while making it worse for others. Very few people's vision of a 'better world' involves them making greater sacrifices than others. Edited September 9, 2011 by TimG

[jbg]

Are Laws against things like murder or rape subjective? Is murder or rape against the law because it's a universal immoral or evil act? Or is murder against the law because it infringes upon your rights?

He makes up in eloquence what he lacks in coherence.

[Shady]

Gee. By that definition unions are evil because the violate the dignity of the individual by compelling them to join strike actions. Environmental groups are evil because they wish to deny people access to cheap and reliable power.

Don't forget about Muslims. I think a better question might be, are Muslims evil?

[CitizenX]

All unions impose penalities on workers who do no comply with their edicts. All unions deny workers the basic right to choose whether they wish to participate in the union. It is inherent in the structure of the union.

Like I said earlier I'm not involved in Unions. As far as I know Unions are democratic, Plus no one forces a person to be apart of a union. If your dignity is violated it's done to you voluntarily with your consent.

Environmentalists push for policies that, according to their belief system, are good for society. That does not mean they are actually good for society. Look at the Catholic Church which has long opposed birth control and abortion "for the good of society". Environmental groups are just another type of organized religion.

Belief system?? Yaa I suppose so, they see, and experience the damage done to the environment they tend to believe in what they are doing. As far as the Catholic Church opposing birth control "for the good of society", that's ridiculous. I'm not a Catholic but as far as I know It is a sin to spill your seed or waste it in some manner. It has nothing to do with what is good for society, it's about wasting gods gift.

Very few people's vision of a 'better world' involves them making greater sacrifices than others.

This might be the world you live in. That is why I called you ignorant in the buddhist sense earlier. You might be a very intelligent man in many ways, but your ego drives you, it controls you. The root of all Evil is the Ego.

Edited September 10, 2011 by CitizenX

[CitizenX]

Don't forget about Muslims. I think a better question might be, are Muslims evil?

No more than Christians. There are good Christians and evil Christians (George Bush). Just like Muslims.

Edited September 10, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

As far as I know Unions are democratic

Democracy is a tyranny of the majority. Many, many injustices are justified because the majority willed it. Are you really trying to argue that any outcome of a democratic process is not evil? If not you cannot justify the abuses of unions by claiming they are democratic.

This might be the world you live in.

It is world you live in. I can tell from the arguments that you use that your own motivations for 'creating a better world' are largely driven by what benefits you personally (or at least causes no harm to you while it harms others). Of course, you come up with rationalizations to convince yourself what benefits you is also 'for the greater good' but that is what everyone does. Whether they are justifying an invasion into iraq or a ban on oil sands production.

You will never understand people until you understand their fundementally selfish nature and their amazing ability to convince themselves that what they want is something that everyone else should want too.

Edited September 10, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

Democracy is a tyranny of the majority. Many, many injustices are justified because the majority willed it. Are you really trying to argue that any outcome of a democratic process is not evil? If not you cannot justify the abuses of unions by claiming they are democratic.

Democratic process is Evil? Democracy is a tyranny of the majority? Unions are abusive? I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more. It is only a tyranny if it tramples on your rights. There is a system in place that is in place to disallow this.

It is world you live in. I can tell from the arguments that you use that your own motivations for 'creating a better world' are largely driven by what benefits you personally (or at least causes no harm to you while it harms others). Of course, you come up with rationalizations to convince yourself what benefits you is also 'for the greater good' but that is what everyone does. Whether they are justifying an invasion into iraq or a ban on oil sands production.

Not every environmentalist (me included) is asking for a ban on oil sand production. They are demanding that it is done in a ecologically responsible manner. Why do I want this? Because I believe that the Canadian people can have it both ways. They can have the Jobs, and money created, and do it in a responsible manner.

You will never understand people until you understand their fundementally selfish nature and their amazing ability to convince themselves that what they want is something that everyone else should want too.

I am well aware that people are fundamentally selfish. Me included. I want to live in a more just world. I want to live a world that has clean air and water. I want to live in a world that takes care of it's poor, elderly and less privileged, because I realize that in doing so that I will live in a better society. It is selfish I guess because I benefit from this and it makes me feel good. Why don't you want this?

I can tell from the arguments that you use that your own motivations for 'creating a better world' are largely driven by what benefits you personally (or at least causes no harm to you while it harms others)

This includes everything that anyone does?

I think you are really stuck on this one definition of evil. If you don't agree with it, I can't argue it's points any more because it's not mine.It was simply an example of definition I provided because no one else was providing one. I also don't think you have a soap box to stand on until you provide your own definition. Take some time and think....What is it to be evil?....Can a person be evil or is evil an act?....Can you place the title evil on an a non human entity?

Edited September 11, 2011 by CitizenX

[TimG]

It is only a tyranny if it tramples on your rights. There is a system in place that is in place to disallow this.

People's rights are violated all of the time in the name of 'democracy'. The Charter of Rights has an explicit provision that says all rights are subject to 'reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.' Where 'demonstrably justified' is basically what the majority think is reasonable. And that does not even get into issues where rights conflict and someone has to make a decision about whose rights to violate because it is impossible to accommodate everyone.

I am not saying these things are avoidable. In a mass society people will find that their rights are crushed all of the time by the arbitrary whims of the majority. But is silly to pretend that the system is fair and just to all simply because it is a "democratic system". Democracy's main virtue is it is a self-correcting form of tyranny. It is still a tyranny.

Not every environmentalist (me included) is asking for a ban on oil sand production. They are demanding that it is done in a ecologically responsible manner.

Of course such a position allows you to talk about both sides of your mouth since there is a limit what can be done. There is also considerable debate about what 'ecologically responsible' means. What happens if they can't meet your criteria? Shut them down or live with the damage becasue we need the jobs and oil?

Me included. I want to live in a more just world. I want to live a world that has clean air and water.

Translation: You want to live in the world were all of the 'dirty jobs' are done by poor people in China and elsewhere so the water you drink and air you breathe is clean.

I want to live in a world that takes care of it's poor, elderly and less privileged

Translation: you want steal someone else's money and give it to people that you decide deserve it.

It is selfish I guess because I benefit from this and it makes me feel good.

Bingo. The problem is when to apply value judgments like 'evil' to people who do not share your views. Look at your tag line one every post where you state quite explicitly all liberals are 'smart' and conservatives are 'stupid'. That tag line shows that you are incapable of accepting that different people have different priorities and a different outlook.

Personally, I think doing something for a profit is a perfectly noble motivation. Entrepreneurs that start businesses and make money are the greatest agents for positive change in our society.

Of course, It is possible to do bad things while pursuing a profit but people do bad things while attempting to do things for ideology. That does make the pursuit of a profit evil.

Edited September 11, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

People's rights are violated all of the time in the name of 'democracy'. The Charter of Rights has an explicit provision that says all rights are subject to 'reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.' Where 'demonstrably justified' is basically what the majority think is reasonable. And that does not even get into issues where rights conflict and someone has to make a decision about whose rights to violate because it is impossible to accommodate everyone.

I am not saying these things are avoidable. In a mass society people will find that their rights are crushed all of the time by the arbitrary whims of the majority. But is silly to pretend that the system is fair and just to all simply because it is a "democratic system". Democracy's main virtue is it is a self-correcting form of tyranny. It is still a tyranny.

Look I'm not a fan of our version of democracy, if you can even call it a democracy. I would much rather have a version of Switzerland's Direct Democracy. And yes you are correct that the Canadian government has shown on numerous occasions that when it really comes down to it we don't really have any rights. The system in place to prevent this has failed multiple times, but this has nothing to due with real democratic principles. It's not what the majority of the Canadian people decided upon it. it's what the Conservative Government, and the RCMP that decided was appropriate, and it was the Canadian apathy that let them get away with it. It was in my opinion not "demonstrably justified".

Of course such a position allows you to talk about both sides of your mouth since there is a limit what can be done. There is also considerable debate about what 'ecologically responsible' means. What happens if they can't meet your criteria? Shut them down or live with the damage becasue we need the jobs and oil?

I believe it very possible to meet a more respectable level of ecologically responsibility what ever that means to environmental scientists that are reasonably unbiased, and at least don't work for the industry as is the case now for the most part. Yes this will no doubt cost more to the consumer in the long run under Canada's current system, again not the system I'm in favour of. No jobs have to be lost in fact more jobs might be created.

Translation: You want to live in the world were all of the 'dirty jobs' are done by poor people in China and elsewhere so the water you drink and air you breathe is clean.

Translation: you want steal someone else's money and give it to people that you decide deserve it.

No and yes to some degree I do believe in income redistribution. But this is Off Topic.

Bingo. The problem is when to apply value judgments like 'evil' to people who do not share your views. Look at your tag line one every post where you state quite explicitly all liberals are 'smart' and conservatives are 'stupid'. That tag line shows that you are incapable of accepting that different people have different priorities and a different outlook.

I shared my definition of a word... Evil = the absence of Empathy and Compassion

Just because you don't share my view of this doesn't make you evil. I don't really understand what you are trying to say? As far as my signature about Conservatives I will not only apologize for it but I will remove it. It obviously upsets you and I am all for hearing different views in a non judgmental way. I will watch my self from now on.

Personally, I think doing something for a profit is a perfectly noble motivation. Entrepreneurs that start businesses and make money are the greatest agents for positive change in our society.

Of course, It is possible to do bad things while pursuing a profit but people do bad things while attempting to do things for ideology. That does make the pursuit of a profit evil.

I agree with you completely. I am just anti-Corporation, and this is where we disagree.

[BC_chick]

I know I'm getting here late in the game, but I just wanted to say that almost all types of businesses are 'evil' in the sense that the bottom line trumps any kind of empathy.

Once I was laid off by a big corporation which cut 1/3 of its staff. Distraught I found a position in a sole-proprietorship by a man who prided his business as a 'family'. When the economic recession of 2008 hit and he wasn't making sales he laid off a half his 'family'. One guy he let go had been with him since the beginning and his wife was on mat-leave since they had just had a baby.

By your definition, OP, sure it's fair to use the term 'evil' when referring to corporations. But all businesses do it, not just corporations.

In fact, same goes for payroll workers. I don't know anyone who would take a significant paycut just to keep a co-worker from getting fired.

It's human nature.

[Shady]

No more than Christians. There are good Christians and evil Christians (George Bush). Just like Muslims.

Yep, same with corporations. I still don't understand why some people can't grasp that concept.

[CitizenX]

Yep, same with corporations. I still don't understand why some people can't grasp that concept.

So you believe that the term Evil can be attached to a non-living entity? No need for the eye roll, it's not as simplistic as you make it out to be.

Edited September 12, 2011 by CitizenX

[CitizenX]

I know I'm getting here late in the game, but I just wanted to say that almost all types of businesses are 'evil' in the sense that the bottom line trumps any kind of empathy.

By your definition, OP, sure it's fair to use the term 'evil' when referring to corporations. But all businesses do it, not just corporations.

It's human nature.

I don't think that it is that easy. If I (alone) own a business and commit an evil act (ie. knowingly pollute some drinking water that in turn kills someone), then it is not the business that is evil it is the owner (me), or person/persons that committed the act that earns that title.

Corporations differ in that they are made up of a group of people that are not legally responsible for the actions of the corporation. The Corporation is it self a legal entity, a legal fiction, A PERSON under the law, and is accountable (or suppose to be) for it's actions.

Because the owners (Share owner's, maybe YOU?) of the Corporation is not legally responsible for the actions of the corporation it becomes a breeding ground for psychopathic personalities. People that will do anything to increase profits for the company so they can rise in the hierarchical structure and receive their bonuses. This encourages people to do anything for the all mighty buck as long as they don't damage the company image or accrue fines that diminish profits. cost benefit analysis. If it is cheaper to pay the fines than to enact environmental safety measures that might save wildlife and do the morally correct thing, the Corporation will pay the fines and risk the damage.

Some books you may find of interest on the subject. ( Please buy local and from small businesses)

Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work

"Snakes in Suits" examines psychopaths in the corporate workplace: how to spot them and how to deal with them. But its lessons are applicable to a bigger picture. The moral relativism inherent in our Capitalist system is the perfect opening for opportunistic psychopaths to rise to the top.

Psychopath Test

The Sociopath Next Door

Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us

Edited September 12, 2011 by CitizenX

[Oleg Bach]

We are but cattle to be milked by the corporations - they will even kill us in an undeclared war all in the hope of profits in the security and weapons buisness.