Occupy Wall Street Sept 17 2011

[GostHacked]

I don't like this post. Now if you'll excuse me, me and the rest of the "99%" are going to blockade the street in front of your house and chant slogans at you. What do you mean I can't blockade OUR streets? The government and the system must hate free speech!!

And you should not like it, because that is the sad state of affairs these days. And yes they hate free speech. You can protest all you want, as long as you do it in that compound and out of sight from the people attending whatever it is you are protesting.

This is not about protecting you or your freedom.

[bush_cheney2004]

And the movement, much to the right wing's handwringing chagrin, continues to grow with more and more people finally fed up with the rich stealing from their hard work by keeping workers wages down and treating them as slave labour..

Even the business community's starting to pay attention...

Hmmmm....NY...Boston...Dallas...Washington D.C. So where is Toronto on this map?

Forbes.com = America.com

[CPCFTW]

And you should not like it, because that is the sad state of affairs these days. And yes they hate free speech. You can protest all you want, as long as you do it in that compound and out of sight from the people attending whatever it is you are protesting.

This is not about protecting you or your freedom.

It is entirely about protecting the freedom of millions of people to get to and from work and their families without being severely delayed by 200 hippies per city who claim to speak for everyone.

Freedom of speech has never guaranteed the speaker the right to blockade streets to give their message. You have the freedom to say Harper and the government sucks without persecution. But when you start blockading streets causing millions in economic damage to do it, you better belive the police are going to remove you from those streets.

The irony is that the same people who are complaining about their freedom of speech being compromised, are using that speech to argue that the government should seize the wealth and profits from free enterprisers.

Edited September 30, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Oleg Bach]

Hmmmm....NY...Boston...Dallas...Washington D.C. So where is Toronto on this map?

Forbes.com = America.com

Enough of this us and them.

[GostHacked]

It is entirely about protecting the freedom of millions of people to get to and from work and their families without being severely delayed by 200 hippies per city who claim to speak for everyone.

Yes, I am sure 200 people are going to affect millions from getting to and from work. When the gov officials roam through the streets, in their cavalcades, it has the same effect as those 200 hippies.

But it's nice to see you just focus on the hippies instead of the real crooks who are causing people to protest in the first place.

Freedom of speech has never guaranteed the speaker the right to blockade streets to give their message. You have the freedom to say Harper and the government sucks without persecution. But when you start blockading streets causing millions in economic damage to do it, you better belive the police are going to remove you from those streets.

So who do the police serve? I should be able to tell that to Harper's face that he sucks.

The irony is that the same people who are complaining about their freedom of speech being compromised, are using that speech to argue that the government should seize the wealth and profits from free enterprisers.

The real irony is that many don't see how Wall Street with the Gov and corporations are robbing people blind.

[Oleg Bach]

Yes, I am sure 200 people are going to affect millions from getting to and from work. When the gov officials roam through the streets, in their cavalcades, it has the same effect as those 200 hippies.

But it's nice to see you just focus on the hippies instead of the real crooks who are causing people to protest in the first place.

So who do the police serve? I should be able to tell that to Harper's face that he sucks.

The real irony is that many don't see how Wall Street with the Gov and corporations are robbing people blind.

[Oleg Bach]

As we saw with the G20 mess - the police serve the banks...as we all do.

[Guest American Woman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19457-2004Jul27.html

Yes indeed barbed wire.

So the Occupy Wall Street protest is taking place behind barbed wire? No, it is not. Freedom of speech is only allowed behind barbed wire? No, it is not. Protests have to take place behind barbed wire? No, they do not.

"Barbed wire," indeed. a thousand times over.

[GostHacked]

So the Occupy Wall Street protest is taking place behind barbed wire? No, it is not. Freedom of speech is only allowed behind barbed wire? No, it is not. Protests have to take place behind barbed wire? No, they do not.

"Barbed wire," indeed. a thousand times over.

Are you for free speech or not AW? Are you condemning the protesters, or supporting them?

[Guest American Woman]

Are you for free speech or not AW? Are you condemning the protesters, or supporting them?

The protesters HAVE free speech. THAT'S what I'm saying. Since I said "free speech is awesome," do you think I'm for free speech or not? Do you really not know the answer to that question? And FYI, that doesn't mean I have to support whoever is exercising their right to free speech. Just because I support their right to express their opinion doesn't mean I have to support them.

[GostHacked]

The protesters HAVE free speech. THAT'S what I'm saying. Since I said "free speech is awesome," do you think I'm for free speech or not? Do you really not know the answer to that question? And FYI, that doesn't mean I have to support whoever is exercising their right to free speech. Just because I support their right to express their opinion doesn't mean I have to support them.

I guess you can't just do it during elections.

[Guest American Woman]

I guess you can't just do it during elections.

Proof, please.

[jacee]

After police attacking people randomly in the "free speech zone" in Toronto at the G20, ripping off a man's prosthetic leg and telling him to "hop" ... and beating up a guy because his name was Adam Nobody ...

Free speech zones are never going to work here again.

In NY, since the protesters are camped out, a suitable place had to be found for that. I believe Zucotti park is privately owned and they have permission of the owner. However, they march on Wall Street twice a day at opening and closing bells, and that's when the police go snaky.

I haven't seen people interviewed who complain about the congestion. Those interviewed support the messages of the protesters. If the people of NY are not complaining, WHO ARE THE POLICE PROTECTING?????

Are they ordered to protect Wall Street from protest? Seems to me Wall Street can hire its own security for that. The salaries of NYPD are paid by THE PEOPLE.

Edited September 30, 2011 by jacee

[GostHacked]

Proof, please.

Well, they can protest, as long as they are in the free speech zone .. you want to run around this block again?

[jacee]

Well, they can protest, as long as they are in the free speech zone .. you want to run around this block again?

Gee ... Is the United States of America not a free speech zone?

[Guest American Woman]

Well, they can protest, as long as they are in the free speech zone .. you want to run around this block again?

Go around in circles with you again? No, thank you. How about you tell me again about how free speech only exists within barbed wire? And then when you're done with that, go protest in your neighbor's yard, and come back and tell me about "free speech zones" in Canada.....

Edited September 30, 2011 by American Woman

[jacee]

:lol:

You think that, do you? Not surprising considering some of the other things you've thought. You were wrong then too, by your own admission.

Have your fun with this, jacee. If this really means something to you, enjoy. Seriously.

It isn't really about "fun" of course, but there is some pure joy at the sense of new and better possibilities evolving because of the efforts of these very intelligent, organized, committed and competent protesters. While there are some older protesters, it is clear that the organizing efforts belong to the youth and I am very impressed by their commitment to peace and their solidarity in maintaining that commitment to progress by peaceful means.

I applaud your effort to do the same, AW, as real progress can only occur through peaceful dialogue that respects all points of view and retains the democratic rights of all.

[Guest American Woman]

Getting excited, feeling hope, being free to speak our minds - that's what democracies like ours are all about, right? We're all very fortunate to live where we live, and I hope the youth involved in this protest never lose sight of that very real fact.

Edited September 30, 2011 by American Woman

[jacee]

This is real. It is growing and it IS the beginnings of a new, young, social movement that has real potential (and those of you who know my typical cynicism will be surprised by this) to steer our country towards the necessary General Strike of working people, unemployed people, owning class people, students, and everyone else.

From new thread here

Since many of us are following this, can we try to keep it in this thread please?

Edited October 1, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

While the protest has been made up mostly of young people, it also has recently attracted the support of a loose coalition of labor and community organizations.

Marty Goodman, a unionized subway worker, said, "Last year we had 900 of our members laid off... These are our issues too: Wall Street, the banks, layoffs, the struggle that these young people ar spearheading is our struggle too." Among those pledging solidarity were the United Federation of Teachers and the Transport Worker Union Local 100, which has 38,000 members. The unions could provide important organizational and financial support for the largely leaderless movement.

Similar but smaller protests have also sprouted in other cities in recent days, including Boston Chicago and San Francisco.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/01/us-wallstreet-protests-idUSTRE7900BL20111001

It's interesting how the media keep referring to the protest as "leaderless", like they can't comprehend a democratic model that doesn't select leader/decision-makers. However, the participant democracy practiced by the protesters does not give decision-making powers away to anyone: All issues are raised by anyone at the assemblies, and decisions are voted on by everyone. While they may at some point select some spokespeople, these people would only do communications from and to the General Assembly. They would not have the power to make decisions.

Participant, or participatory democracy is the oldest form of North American democracy, practiced by the Haudenosaunee Six Nations (Iroquois) Confederacy for nearly a thousand years, and detailed in their 'Great Law'.

Some links:

http://greenparty.ca/party/values/participatory-democracy

http://www.hfienberg.com/poltheory/participate.html

http://www.watsoninstitute.org/project_detail.cfm?id=113

Six Nations

http://www.ratical.com/many_worlds/6Nations/#DtIC

Edited October 1, 2011 by jacee

[Rocky Road]

Well raising awareness is good,

and if anything non-violent protest does just that.

Maybe the corrupt traders are laughing at the movement,

but youtube censoring videos sounds like to me that the establishment

is worried about this spreading in a fragile world.

[jacee]

Well raising awareness is good,

and if anything non-violent protest does just that.

Maybe the corrupt traders are laughing at the movement,

but youtube censoring videos sounds like to me that the establishment

is worried about this spreading in a fragile world.

What is even more significant is that the mainstream media are not reporting on the protest. The uber-rich have shut them down, presumeably because they are scared of possible effects on the stock markets and banding together to try to prevent the movement from growing ... but it is growing and spreading anyway.

[Oleg Bach]

Gee ... Is the United States of America not a free speech zone?

Yes it is as long as your are vile mouthed - parrot evil things - maintain the party line - and agree with a potential president that has the crowd cheer him on how many poor black people he executed - that sounds real free to me - just hate to be the poor black prisoner...who's poverty and ignorance generated a murderous out burst.

[jacee]

I's becoming increasingly obvious that the real priority of those running the world for the last few decades has not been creating a viable form of capitalism, but rather, convincing us all that the current form of capitalism is the only conceivable economic system, so its flaws are irrelevant. As a result, we're all sitting around dumbfounded as the whole apparatus falls apart.

What we've learned now is that the economic crisis of the 1970s never really went away. It was fobbed off by cheap credit at home and massive plunder abroad – the latter, in the name of the "third world debt crisis". But the globa south fought back. The "alter-globalisation movement", was n the end, successful: the IMF has been driven out of East Asia and Latin America, just as it is now being driven from the Middle East.

As a result, the debt crisis has come home to Europe and North America, replete with the exact same approach: declare a financial crisis, appoint supposedly neutral technocrats to manage it, and then engage in an orgy of plunder in the name of "austerity".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/25/occupy-wall-street-protest

[cybercoma]

Given the rise in the income gap and the current occupation of Wall Street, I thought of a passage from Marx and Engel's Manifesto of the Communist Party:

The modern labourer, on the contrary, instead of rising with the progress of industry, sinks deeper and deeper below the conditions of existence of his own class. He becomes a pauper, and pauperism develops more rapidly than population or wealth. And here it becomes evident, that the bourgeoisie is unfit any longer to be the ruling class in society, and to impose its conditions of existence upon society as an over-riding law. It is unfit to rule because it is incompetent to assure an existence to its slave within his slavery, because it cannot help letting him sink into such a state, that it has to feed him, instead of being fed by him. Society can no longer live under this bourgeoisie, in other words, its existence is no longer compatible with society.