Occupy Wall Street Sept 17 2011

[Guest Derek L]

Technically, their entitlement gains would be larger as a percentage of very low or nonexistent income over many years. Since you are obsessed with the "US perspective" instead of Canada's, here is a peek at the growth of non-discretionary spending on entitlement programs:

http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/entitlements-historical-tax-levels

It is a lie to say all of the gains have gone to the uber rich or 1%....wait...no...it's just stupid to say that. Thank you.

And to think, they want

[GostHacked]

When people get tired of this and want to occupy the senates, congresses and parliments around the world, give me a call. That should be the focus.

[bush_cheney2004]

And to think, they want

Indeed...they want even more, and are outraged that the Golden Goose will no longer be able to provide them with even more.

[capricorn]

When people get tired of this and want to occupy the senates, congresses and parliments around the world, give me a call. That should be the focus.

Hopefully the protestors who are "tired of this" will at minimum exercise their right to vote. Hopefully some will go further and run for political office; that's the ultimate in occupying the halls of power.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hopefully the protestors who are "tired of this" will at minimum exercise their right to vote. Hopefully some will go further and run for political office; that's the ultimate in occupying the halls of power.

One would hope so, but that requires much more initiative than just flash mobbing with FaceBook.

[GostHacked]

Hopefully the protestors who are "tired of this" will at minimum exercise their right to vote. Hopefully some will go further and run for political office; that's the ultimate in occupying the halls of power.

That's if we believe elections are fair and honest and open.

[Guest American Woman]

That's if we believe elections are fair and honest and open.

Most of us do. Elections in our democratic nations are about as open and fair as one is going to get. What's your alternative?

[GostHacked]

Most of us do. Elections in our democratic nations are about as open and fair as one is going to get. What's your alternative?

I guess we will soon find out. Maybe I am just completely jaded towards most politicians, and see them all as crooks, there are a few good ones out there, but not enough of them get the proper support. The system is almost designed to work against open and honest people in government. Most of them promise one thing and more often than not the opposite happens. Many can't seem to answer a simple yes or no question, to me that means they are just fence sitting pussies feeding on the teet of the taxpayer.

Many can be bought with money. With that, integrety goes out the door of that politician. These are also the people that get away with quite a bit while telling us to live by rules that they don't even follow themselves.

Sure there are good people out there that work in government, but we need less government and more smart people running the countries.

This year is not over, and has to be one of the craziest years I have witnessed. I've never seen so much go on at the same time, or maybe I am just not distracted by entertainment as I used to be.

Hopefully everything will stay peaceful for these protests, and I hope many do understand what they are protesting against. Saying simply 'capitolism' is not helping then define their argument.

[Guest Derek L]

Found this little gem:

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/11/occupy-l-a-speaker-violence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/

Occupy L.A. Speaker: “One of the speakers said the solution is nonviolent movement. No, my friend. I’ll give you two examples: French Revolution, and Indian so-called Revolution.

Gandhi, Gandhi today is, with respect to all of you, Gandhi today is a tumor that the ruling class is using constantly to mislead us. French Revolution made fundamental transformation. But it was bloody.

India, the result of Gandhi, is 600 million people living in maximum poverty.

So, ultimately, the bourgeoisie won’t go without violent means. Revolution! Yes, revolution that is led by the working class.

Long live revolution! Long live socialism!”

Why hasn’t this been on the headlines of the major media? As was commented on the link, if it was a Tea Partier, it would be up & down the print/radio/TV coverage……..So my question, what percentage of the “99%ers” are openly calling for a violent overthrow of our government and society in general?

I wonder what the real 99% would think of this?

[Guest American Woman]

50% of university students have wealthy parents who pay their way, partying and 'spring break' holidays down south and all. For the other 50% it's an entirely different world of poor nutrition, low wage jobs to pay their way and spiralling debt.

Oddly enough, my daughters don't fit into either one of those categories. Nor do their friends. They are all holding down jobs, paying off their student loan debt, and living good lives.

But it's interesting how we've gone from 1% holding all the wealth while the rest of the world is so unfairly poor in comparison to 50% of university students having "wealthy parents" who not only pay their entire way through university, but also fork out the cash for partying and spring breaks. So are these people out there whining about the 1% too?

At any rate, it isn't all or nothing - either wealthy or living on Skid Row; and has been pointed out, those living in poverty qualify for government aid.

The ones who will survive are those who are angry enough to overcome the malaise that is poverty, inform themselves and put their energy toward change.

The ones who will survive are the ones who take responsibility and put their energy towards making the best of their university education - while being thankful they live in a country where it's so easy to get a student loan that virtually anyone who sets their mind to it can get a university degree. I would wager that the people out there engaged in "occupation" are not living in "the malaise that is poverty." I would say most of the protesters have good lives - or could have, if they'd apply themselves more, but they want more - they want it all, with as little effort as possible. Not being wealthy doesn't mean one is poverty stricken.

They are the occupiers ... everywhere.

They are right.

They are getting screwed by the wealthy.

Yeah. Poor babies. Some people have more money than they do. I can't understand why those "wealthy parents" didn't pay for my daughters' educations too. Life is so unfair! Boo. hoo.

Edited October 16, 2011 by American Woman

[cybercoma]

Hopefully the protestors who are "tired of this" will at minimum exercise their right to vote. Hopefully some will go further and run for political office; that's the ultimate in occupying the halls of power.

The system is broken. In Canada you have <60% of the eligible voters casting ballots with a party that gets <40% of their votes having a majority of the seats in Parliament. In the United States, you have option A or option B for the president, regardless of the other people that run, and it's the lesser of two evils. Political office is nothing more than a tool of the elite to protect their wealth.

[capricorn]

Political office is nothing more than a tool of the elite to protect their wealth.

And it will remain so until the 40% get off their butt and vote.

[jacee]

Complete and utter nonsense.

Those are the facts.

Some wealth amoungst the middle class has disappeared because of the current recession. Brought upon by idiotic government poilicy that lowered mortgage standards as to push home ownership for the same middle and lower income people that you're speaking of. In other words, it's people like you that have directly and negitively impacted the same people you claim to care about. After the mess your type has cause, it's best you get out of the way, and let others fix the massive problems you've created.

That didn't happen in Canada, Shady.

Are you a US'n poseur too?

'People like me'? Meaning what?

Edited October 16, 2011 by jacee

[jacee]

And to think, they want

More wages yes, jobs above poverty lelel, yes.

The data is pretty clear who's making the gains: The rich not those working for low incomes.

They do have more humanity though.

[Rick]

Found this little gem:

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/11/occupy-l-a-speaker-violence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/

Why hasn’t this been on the headlines of the major media? As was commented on the link, if it was a Tea Partier, it would be up & down the print/radio/TV coverage……..So my question, what percentage of the “99%ers” are openly calling for a violent overthrow of our government and society in general?

I wonder what the real 99% would think of this?

If that's what's needed to rid this country of the corporate greed backing, right wing, so be it.

I'd be at the front of the line to sign up.

[jacee]

When people get tired of this and want to occupy the senates, congresses and parliments around the world, give me a call. That should be the focus.

The real issue is that politicians are controlled by the financiers and corporations and are powerless to make any real economic change. The only way is to expose this corruption and try to empower politicians to stand up against the money power. However, the targets have to be the corruptors, not the corruptees.

Edited October 16, 2011 by jacee

[blueblood]

More wages yes, jobs above poverty lelel, yes.

The data is pretty clear who's making the gains: The rich not those working for low incomes.

They do have more humanity though.

Like these:

Jobs!!!

I don't get it more people are becoming millionaires every year, and that's a problem???

Posters like this are why commerce, economics, and business should be mandatory for high school graduation.

[blueblood]

The real issue is that politicians are controlled by the financiers and corporations and are powerless to make any real economic change. The only way is to expose this corruption and try to empower politicians to stand up against the money power. However, the targets have to be the corruptors, not the corruptees.

No they aren't, the tea party movement in the US is a testament to that. As a result, the deficit, national debt, and gov't spending are under the microscope.

[jacee]

And it will remain so until the 40% get off their butt and vote.

That will change nothing. One politician corrupted by the wealthy and powerful or another one. No difference.

No, the system has to be changed to strengthen governments against the wealthy and powerful.

The problem lies in finance, not politics.

[jacee]

I actually agree. I'm assuming you're against the car industry bailouts too right?

Anyways, Canada's energy industry provides billions of dollars in tax revenue that make our healthcare system and education funding possible. You'd better start thanking them.

very much opposed to the bailouts, yes.

It seems corporations that run themselves into the ground with dinosaur products no one wants are opposed to government assistance for the poor because they want it for themselves. How the hell can an economy work that way?

I'm well aware of Canada's economic reliance on extraction industries. However, that's reliance on dinosaur industries too, very unhealthy economy and no more sustainable than the dinosaur cars they were making.

The 'old' economy won't pull us through this time because environmental destruction is too pervasive to ignore and too costly to repair. It's like building an addition on your house by ripping out and using the existing studs on the addition: A self-limiting strategy.

However, I sincerely doubt your premise that corporate taxes pays for health care and education, since corporate subsidies and tax breaks reduce taxes paid to welfare rates. Individual taxes (from employment, it's true) pay for services.

Edited October 17, 2011 by jacee

[GostHacked]

The real issue is that politicians are controlled by the financiers and corporations and are powerless to make any real economic change. The only way is to expose this corruption and try to empower politicians to stand up against the money power. However, the targets have to be the corruptors, not the corruptees.

I say go after the corruptees, to get info on the corruptors. Once that happens, they will turn on each other, like rabid dogs. Snitching and selling each other out. That might be nice!

[capricorn]

That will change nothing.

For one who is overjoyed by the participation of our youth in protests, I'd think you would be encouraging them to vote. I suppose not since you don't have faith in our electoral system. I guess protesting is all that's left.

The problem lies in finance, not politics.

Except that you want government (politicians) to have more control over the wealthy and powerful (finance). Interesting logic.

[jacee]

Found this little gem:

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/11/occupy-l-a-speaker-violence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/

Congralulations Derek!

You finally found a nutbar to hold up as an example of "protester".

Why hasn’t this been on the headlines of the major media? As was commented on the link, if it was a Tea Partier, it would be up & down the print/radio/TV coverage……..So my question, what percentage of the “99%ers” are openly calling for a violent overthrow of our government and society in general?

I wonder what the real 99% would think of this?

Um ... he's a nutbar?

What nutbar is saying is his opinion.

It is not the consensus of the protesters, not discussed or agreed upon by the General Assembly. Violence is specifically NOT a tactic of the protesters.

When marching, the protesters themselves surround and isolate such nutbars, who might provoke conflict. (These are experienced organizers.)

OR ... he might just be a police provocateur trying to stir violence so they can shut the protest down. That's their usual strategy.

[Guest Derek L]

Congralulations Derek!

You finally found a nutbar to hold up as an example of "protester".

Um ... he's a nutbar?

What nutbar is saying is his opinion.

It is not the consensus of the protesters, not discussed or agreed upon by the General Assembly. Violence is specifically NOT a tactic of the protesters.

When marching, the protesters themselves surround and isolate such nutbars, who might provoke conflict. (These are experienced organizers.)

OR ... he might just be a police provocateur trying to stir violence so they can shut the protest down. That's their usual strategy.

Ahh, the Pigs are to blame……..I see now……..If you watch the video, he seems to be getting a warm response from the crowd…..

Occupy Vancouver

Check out the Vancouver website.........another gem of a member:

To reiterate and strengthen a point I made earlier here. First, neither the "non-violent" OR " more confrontational" aspects of "the movement" has a monopolu right claim to the coming struggle. Both WILL be present. Accept it. It's just a fact of life.

That said, both aspects of the movement need to respect each other, and NOT make life more difficult for each other. Especially at this early stage of building the non-violent movement, which, at this stage at least, is most likely to attract the greater support. Those of us "relatively less" committed to this approach need to understand this, and assist the building of the overall movement, by first creating some distance between ourselves, so that both aspects can maintain good relations, and allow each to attract those whom they will.

What is needed is a total and mass movement, building to critical mass, to create change. And there will not be "just" a " more confrontational" movement OR "just" a "non-violent" movement. There will be both. Both sides need to face the fact.

And we will be more effective at building this thing, IF both sides respects each other, and allows each the physical and intellectual space needed to grow, and add critical mass impact. Especially however, the responsibility lies with the "more confrontational" side of the movement. It will help BOTH to separate out the police and security services "provocateurs"... who will be there, have no bloody doubt, trying to turn "the movement" to fighting amongst itself, between the two different tendencies.

UNITY IS STRENGTH. DISUNITY IS WEAKNESS. CO-OPERATION BETWEEN ALL MOVEMENT ASPECTS IS THE KEY TO UNITY AND OVERALL STRENGTH.

FINKS SOW DISUNITY.

Be pre-emptive. Make agreements and create understangs beween the various aspects of the movement... BEFORE the shit goes down.

A very important issue... relationship with the police. It is not a matter of trusting or not trusting the police, simply a matter of prudence, as in to be seen making every effort to maintain a peaceful protest, the least harmful to the participants and public. Matters with the police "may" certainly evolve out of the movements control, but let it be the police be seen to have taken it there. (At the same time, I do not think it is the broader movement's responsibility to inform the police re those planning violence. An attempt must be made to unite ALL... BUT, those who choose other than peaceful tactics need to be encouraged to separate themselves from those who have chosen the non-violent path, and as part of an effort to maintain the broader protection of the public from police violence. It is going to be dicey and complex, but attempts must be made to limit police hostility towards demonstrators.... even perhaps eliciting some "sympathy" over time. For the police doubtess have their own "issues" with Conservative politics and the economics of the time.

That talk sounds like a communist insurrection...........Black Panthers 2.0?

[jacee]

I say go after the corruptees, to get info on the corruptors. Once that happens, they will turn on each other, like rabid dogs. Snitching and selling each other out. That might be nice!

Either or both.

I think right now they are wondering ... and we want to continue and intensify their uncertainty.

Edited October 17, 2011 by jacee