How Much Money Will You Pay For Green Energy?

[thepatrickblack]

This is a serious question. Right now, citizens in the UK are rebelling against an (over?)aggressive green policy because of high energy bills. Article here: http://abetterenergyplan.ca/#/news/green_backlash

So, think about it. Everyone supports a greener Earth but what is your price?

[TimG]

Everyone supports a greener Earth but what is your price?

CO2 is plant food - if you want a greener earth emit more CO2!

[Scotty]

This is a serious question. Right now, citizens in the UK are rebelling against an (over?)aggressive green policy because of high energy bills. Article here: http://abetterenergyplan.ca/#/news/green_backlash

So, think about it. Everyone supports a greener Earth but what is your price?

I think you'll find out on October 7 that the price Ontarions have been paying is way too high for their tolerance.

[Wild Bill]

This is a serious question. Right now, citizens in the UK are rebelling against an (over?)aggressive green policy because of high energy bills. Article here: http://abetterenergyplan.ca/#/news/green_backlash

So, think about it. Everyone supports a greener Earth but what is your price?

I'm a techie! I really don't understand where this idea came from that we have to pay EXTRA to be green! There are a lot of things we can do that would SAVE us money!

All these mega-project ideas, like provincial electricity companies building giant wind farms and such, all seem to deliver energy to us little folks FAR more expensively than what we have now!

This only makes sense, I guess. Why on earth would anyone expect that a government scheme would cost us LESS money? It never, ever has before!

If we think about individual generating and conserving schemes, just enough for our own needs, we open up a lot more opportunities. The big problem is a sufficiently large battery bank. Car batteries are a very poor choice, as they tend to go bad if you drain them too deeply. Tow motor and electric golf cart batteries work well!

The batteries used and being developed for electric and hybrid cars are an excellent choice! Right now they are very expensive brand new but surely they will start to show up in autowreckers and the like!

You do have to have some knowledge and talent to safely "roll your own" but it can be well worth it. If manufacturers offered more products for this market people could start to save some real money for themselves. Canadian Tire has started to offer home windmills and solar panels but they are still more expensive than buying from the regular power grid. It only makes sense for cottages up north, perhaps on islands where there is no conventional electricity available. Again, the "system" wants us to pay a premium.

Still, things are starting to change. Even 5 years from now might show a very different picture.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Wild Bill

[TimG]

The batteries used and being developed for electric and hybrid cars are an excellent choice!

These batteries are 1000/kWh. The price might come down to 200-300/KWh in 5-10 years. You need 30-50KWh for one day of power for a typical home so we are looking at an appliance that is at least $10,000. There is no business case that can justify such an investment. Edited August 5, 2011 by TimG

[CitizenX]

How Much Money Will You Pay For Green Energy?

I think this depends on how much you believe in climate change, and the cause.

Two questions were key: Have mean global temperatures risen compared to pre-1800s levels, and has human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures?

About 90 percent of the scientists agreed with the first question and 82 percent the second.

The strongest consensus on the causes of global warming came from climatologists who are active in climate research, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role.

Petroleum geologists and meteorologists were among the biggest doubters, with only 47 percent and 64 percent, respectively, believing in human involvement.

I'm going with the people that are smarter than me.

Everyone supports a greener Earth but what is your price?

There is no Canadian economy if there is no Canada, or world worth living in. What if our generation were the first to think of the next generation.

[TimG]

Two questions were key: Have mean global temperatures risen compared to pre-1800s levels, and has human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures?

Those are the wrong questions.

The real questions are:

1) How much warming are we likely to experience in the future?

2) What are the consequences of that warming?

The strongest consensus on the causes of global warming came from climatologists who are active in climate research, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role.

Again, you are asking the wrong questions.

The questions we need to ask are:

1) Is it even technically feasible to reduce CO2 emissions given the technology we have today?

2) Is the cost of reducing CO2 likely to be less the cost of doing nothing?

Those questions are ECONOMIC and ENGINEERING questions. The opinion of climatologists is irrelevant since they are not qualified to comment on economic and engineering problems (at least no more qualified than the average BB poster).

If you really want to defer to experts then you need to get better at choosing the experts you defer to. Your approach to decision making on CO2 mitigation is like going to a lawyer for medical advice.

Edited August 5, 2011 by TimG

[William Ashley]

This is a serious question. Right now, citizens in the UK are rebelling against an (over?)aggressive green policy because of high energy bills. Article here: http://abetterenergyplan.ca/#/news/green_backlash

So, think about it. Everyone supports a greener Earth but what is your price?

Just some comments,the cost from wallet does not represent the "Real Cost" normal people think what they pay for something is the real price. That is a mistake.

Here is the TRUTH... environmental damage has hidden costs. You can take extreme cases such as the expansion of the Sahara, the Arabian Peninsula, but you can look to localized effects such as in the North with melting permafrost, retreating ice and water alterations.

You can look at how pollution from Russia has effected marine life that once fed inuit communities by poisining the blubber of marine life up there.

You can look at how trains have chased away the animal life from reservations in rural areas of Canada.

Cars have caused photochemical smog, factories have made computers that dumped waste into water to make it toxic.

Once upon a time people could pay nothing for all they need, now people are faced with a requirement to treat their water.. at cost.

The fact is that if implemented properly environmental programs help save money.

Half of London could be flooded if water levels rise.

You got to understand that there are the costs you pay and the costs the public will be forced to pay anyway. You can pay to prevent something or you can pay to fix something, or you can not pay and have the people who get hit by your damaging activities pay.

Fact is the people that should pay are the people who are causing the damage, and those costs should go to repair the damage, or to offset the damage through programs that protect people from the fallouts.

It can't be simpler.

It is really unfortunate the average joe is an idiot who doesn't understand the pricetag isn't the real cost, because the public purse and thus lost revenue which can lead to tax expenditures has to pay anyway.

It'd be nice if people studied both macro and microeconomics before opening their mouth about the cost of something.

Here is one response:

http://www.ecn.ac.uk/iccuk/indicators/10.htm

http://www.skepticalscience.com/getting_down_to_cases_london_and_the_river_thames.html

Going off grid costs about 3-5 years worth of basic monthly rate costs (just for having a line hooked up)

Of course batteries arn't exactly ginger and spice for the environment, but hopefully the evehicles thing will provide more easily refurbished and safe battery technologies for "hybrid" uses like home energy,and vehicle energy since basic home setups use the same batteries, you just need the new roofing tiles .. which are about the same cost as the regular shingles you have to buy anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_shingles

how convienient reshingle your roof, get free energy, and get an evehcile.. and use the same batteries to power your car and house.

Not only are the shingles "lifetime warrenty" meaning they are better than regular shingles... BUT, you will have to reshingle your roof eventually anyway...so it provides a natural turnover point to convert.

Do your regular shingles remove your electric bill?

Edited August 5, 2011 by William Ashley

[Oleg Bach]

The question makes no sense - to make more money you must destroy the envirionment and inflict harm on nature....so the more money you spend on gree energy the less green we are...green is not about money...it is about the protection of nature - and no one talks about that - they just parrot things about environment.

[Wild Bill]

These batteries are 1000/kWh. The price might come down to 200-300/KWh in 5-10 years. You need 30-50KWh for one day of power for a typical home so we are looking at an appliance that is at least $10,000. There is no business case that can justify such an investment.

But Tim, I was suggesting buying them from an auto wrecker. What would be the price of a used battery from a car totalled in an accident?

Or what are the properties of an old battery? Lead acid batteries are well known to lose their cold weather capacity but can still be serviceable in indoor applications. Would a 6-7 year old battery from a Prius give usable service tucked into the corner of a basement, particularly since by your figures a homeowner would be asking for less than 25% of its original capacity?

No do-it-yourselfer worth his salt just goes out and buys a lot of brand new stuff! Any fumble-fingered idiot can do that!

[TimG]

Lead acid batteries are well known to lose their cold weather capacity but can still be serviceable in indoor applications.

A car battery will store 0.4-0.5 kWh. You would need at least 60 of them to have a useful backup for your household. Could your auto wrecker supply you with that many? What would happen if 10 people had the same idea?

Car batteries also wear out. I have to replace mine every 8-10 years.

No do-it-yourselfer worth his salt just goes out and buys a lot of brand new stuff! Any fumble-fingered idiot can do that!

DYI is great but it is not a scalable solution since a DYI depends on someone else buying and disposing useful items. DYI is an irrelevant option on this thread because we need to talk about options that everyone can use. Edited August 5, 2011 by TimG

[Oleg Bach]

A car battery will store 0.4-0.5 kWh. You would need at least 60 of them to have a useful backup for your household. Could your auto wrecker supply you with that many? What would happen if 10 people had the same idea?

Car batteries also wear out. I have to replace mine every 8-10 years.

DYI is great but it is not a scalable solution since a DYI depends on someone else buying and disposing useful items. DYI is an irrelevant option on this thread because we need to talk about options that everyone can use.

The only stored energy is the sun. All storeage of energy other than the sun has to deal with mechanics-and with the containment of energy within a mechanical or chemical device - energy is lost and or disipates..there is such thing as truely stored green energy- we have to harvest the sun directly...as we always have.

[William Ashley]

The only stored energy is the sun. All storeage of energy other than the sun has to deal with mechanics-and with the containment of energy within a mechanical or chemical device - energy is lost and or disipates..there is such thing as truely stored green energy- we have to harvest the sun directly...as we always have.

This is such a false statement,

There are many types of energy Oleg.

Kinetic Energy is the most abundant here on earth.

Humans are energy.

Wind is energy

tides are energy.

the earth is constantly vibrating.. and that is energy

Geothermal energy from the sunlike core of the earth is energy

radiation and magnetic waves coming out of everything is energy

everything is a constant pool of vibration, the atoms, the electrons,... and all of that is energy.

See since everything in time moves along a curvature of spacelime, any relative movements between relational entities is an exchange of --- forces.. and those forces are a representation of flow of energy.

It is all energy.

Wind and Tidal and kinetic forces only need to have pieziometric conversion... such as through a dynamo.

Of course windmills/watermills etc.. don't need to produce electricity to create "work" since they can convert force... all you need is gears etc... or a sail.. it is all energy.

The sun is just an easily understandable form of nuclear fusion.. but everything scientifically speaking, is abounding with energy, electrons are radiating from most things regularily. There is tons of free flowing energy in the air around you.. static charges (I saw an awsome bolt of lightening yesterday.. lightening bolts (static energy - are very very powerful sources of electricity) etc.., much like people can breath underwater by using the freeflowing gases in the water with the right filter.

Understanding everything comes from hydrogen but it is just in a different state right now, but with sufficient heat the structures will break back down into deutronium, and eventually that may break down into quasi quarkal forms and uber forms of energy/force subparticles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen#Role_in_quantum_theory

Stars are making matter, not energy. The energy outflow is a side effect of the generation of cooling of superheated gases.

The timeframe for us is beyond peakoil that is why it is seen as a renewable resource.

Gravity is far more renewable and abundant as a form of energy.

Stars arn't the only things that direct radiation.

The benefit of non Electromagnetic energy is that it doesn't generate heat, except by friction of the work done, and will be more localized than energy loss along say an electric line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_electricity

All these wires are a giant HARP system. emiting energy into the atmosphere.

Edited August 5, 2011 by William Ashley

[charter.rights]

CO2 is plant food - if you want a greener earth emit more CO2!

The problem is, there are too many around here creating methane.

[TimG]

The problem is, there are too many around here creating methane.

Methane concentrations are stable. No sign of a human related increase:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Methane-global-average-2006.jpg

[Newfoundlander]

Thanks to Muskrat Falls power rates in Newfoundland and Labrador will stabilize after going up 37% between now and 2016. Something like 99% of province will be powered by green energy.

Electricity rates will increase in the next few years as a result of the rising cost of oil that

Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro burns at its Holyrood Thermal Generating Station.

Between 2010 and 2016, electricity rates are forecast to rise by approximately 37%. These

increases are due to rising oil prices and the increasing demand for electricity, which will result

in more electricity generated at the Holyrood plant. For example, if you’re paying $291 per

month now to heat your home with electricity, our forecasts estimate that you will be paying

around $400 in 2017.

These increases are not related to the development of Muskrat Falls or the Labrador-Island

Transmission Link. The cost of that project will not be included in electricity rates until power

from Muskrat Falls is brought to the island in 2017. At that time, electricity prices will stabilize.

The combined cost of developing Muskrat Falls and building the Labrador-Island Transmission

Link, plus the cost of financing (interest on the debt), will result in electricity rates that are about

the same as 2016 rates. In 2017, when Muskrat Falls comes online, rates are projected to

stabilize with increases less than 1% per year long into the future due to the stable nature of

hydropower. And from 2017 onwards, we will no longer be impacted by the instability of oil

prices and its impact on electricity rates.

http://www.nalcorenergy.com/assets/pdf/faq%20-%20electricity%20rates_july%2019%202011%20final.pdf

[Wild Bill]

A car battery will store 0.4-0.5 kWh. You would need at least 60 of them to have a useful backup for your household. Could your auto wrecker supply you with that many? What would happen if 10 people had the same idea?

Car batteries also wear out. I have to replace mine every 8-10 years.

DYI is great but it is not a scalable solution since a DYI depends on someone else buying and disposing useful items. DYI is an irrelevant option on this thread because we need to talk about options that everyone can use.

Tim, you keep missing my point! I'm NOT talking about using car batteries! Here's the flow chart: Prius gets totaled in an accident. Car ends up in wrecking yard. How much for the battery from this source? Or how about when someone scraps a 10 year old hybrid? Could the batter still be useful in a home power application?

Can I be any plainer?

[TimG]

How much for the battery from this source? Or how about when someone scraps a 10 year old hybrid? Could the batter still be useful in a home power application?

And I am saying what a few DIY people might be able to do is irrelevent when it comes to the big picture. We need solutions that everyone can use - not just the 0.0001% that can find some old batteries from a scrap dealer.

[Wild Bill]

And I am saying what a few DIY people might be able to do is irrelevent when it comes to the big picture. We need solutions that everyone can use - not just the 0.0001% that can find some old batteries from a scrap dealer.

Then sadly Tim, "green" will ALWAYS cost more! Why? Because people will have no choice but to accept the "solutions" that are offered to them and those solutions will ALWAYS cost a premium!

It's simple marketing. First you condition people to expect to pay a premium to "save the planet". Then you price your "solution" as much above what people are paying now as you think you can gouge.

As a sidebar, isn't it interesting that at the same time as we are slowly developing electric cars that will cost us less than gasoline to operate we are seeing trends like McGuinty's expensive MicroFit program, where wind and solar power get paid up to ten times the rate for regular power, driving up the cost of utility power to compensate.

Eventually, we can be sure that we will not only pay as much for electricity as we are paying now for gasoline but we will actually pay MORE!

I'm reminded of when lead was banned in gasoline and we all paid MORE for unleaded gas at the pump, when lead was an additive!

[TimG]

Eventually, we can be sure that we will not only pay as much for electricity as we are paying now for gasoline but we will actually pay MORE!

Yep. That is why I say it is nonsense to think eliminating our dependency on oil a justification for CO2 reductions. Not a chance - CO2 reductions and oil dependency are two different problems requiring different solution. In the latter case we need lots of cheap electricity to make EVs viables. Of course, the greenies know they are simply BSing when they talk about eliminating our dependency on oil - it is justa rhetorical trick to get people to by into their plan to deindustrialize society. Edited August 6, 2011 by TimG

[Moonlight Graham]

How Much Money Will You Pay For Green Energy?

I think this depends on how much you believe in climate change, and the cause.

Even if anthropogenic global warming were not occurring, green energy would still be very desirable because it keeps the garbage that burning coal/oil/gas spews into our air, giving us smoggy cities, asthma attacks, and other delicious yummies!

[Jack Weber]

Even if anthropogenic global warming were not occurring, green energy would still be very desirable because it keeps the garbage that burning coal/oil/gas spews into our air, giving us smoggy cities, asthma attacks, and other delicious yummies!

I take it you're not a fan of lung cheese?

[Bonam]

How Much Money Will You Pay For Green Energy?

However much the utility charges.

Not like most people who live in cities have a choice. If you live in suburbia or in the country and want to play with installing your own wind turbines, solar panels, batteries, and backup generators and going "off grid" that's all fine and dandy, but not an option for people who live in densely populated areas.

[Sandy MacNab]

If I had a choice, not 1 red cent. Even if global warming is a fact, the evidence that mankind is a major cause has been invented. In fact, the evidence of fraud and manipulation is overwhelming.

[Michael Hardner]

If I had a choice, not 1 red cent. Even if global warming is a fact, the evidence that mankind is a major cause has been invented. In fact, the evidence of fraud and manipulation is overwhelming.

If that is true, then what happened ? Why was no one charged? In truth it was a momentary side show for right wing radio.