Warren Jeffs and FLDS

[pinko]

It's very animmalistic to have the rich bull monkeys run the young male monkeys off...so they can have all the prime breeding females. You would assume that those with money and power would want to behave more like evolved human beings than alpha apes?

The alpha apes also control the finances and with this the lives of those under their thumbs.

[Oleg Bach]

The alpha apes also control the finances and with this the lives of those under their thumbs.

Yah I know of such apes - and what pisses these power mongers off is in the fact that I know one thing - they have all the money and the power and they are apes - and I am a human being. All the money the world does not bring about real respect - just fear.

[WIP]

Ahh...I found something that I agree with.

If society accepts same-sex marriage....why not polygamy, if all involved are consenting adults?

Well, actually that is not my point! Polygamy and same-sex marriage should be evaluated based on their social values or possible negative impacts, not outlawed because of the New Testament. I'm a consequentialist or a utilitarian, not a subscriber to divine command ethics.

When it comes to same-sex marriage, from my pov there seems to be a lot more potential value than any negative aspects. The anti-gay crusaders have railed for years about the immorality of gay men; so why not allow those who are inclined to want a stable relationship the opportunity for marriage, and the benefits that accompany marriage? Here in Canada, same-sex marriage has been legalized, and conventional marriages haven't been destroyed....or if they have, it has nothing to do with gays getting married! I have a cousin in Ottawa who has been living with the same partner for over 18 years, and took the opportunity of making it legal a few years ago. I'm surprised all of the family values campaigners aren't supporting gay marriage. You would think that they would be in favour of anything that encouraged or allowed gays to live in long term, stable relationships!

Btw, I remember debating eons ago in this forum that legitimizing sodomy and homosexuality based on "sexual orientation" is opening a can of worms. Just recently in the news, someone was interviewed (I don't know who he is) and he's saying that Pedophilia should be accepted as a sexual orientation.

That would be an idiot! It is an orientation, but since a pedophiles desires for underage boys or girls cannot be legally consensual, it has to be forbidden and the pedophile has to seek diversions or some forms of treatment. Psychologists say it's very difficult to change the desires of pedophiles, but the best evidence regarding causes indicates that many pedophiles are usually themselves subjected to sexual abuse at a young age, which would make it a deviation that can be spread to future generations.

As for social harms, I've also discussed NAMBLA ages ago, and that homosexual activity can include pedophilia since there seems to be the attraction and desire to initiate young lads.

Furthermore, the investigative report on sexual abuse within the Catholic church had unearthed a "cabal" among homosexual pedophiles.

I think the problems with priests start with the crazy demand for celibacy and Catholic fear of sexual desires. In the old days, like during my mother's time, most priests were likely heterosexual men, and stories would be rampant about priests' girlfriends, secret children and families, and priests using opportunities such as confirmation to have a 'private moment' with some young teenage girls. In the old days, nothing was ever done about these scandals which never rose above the rumour and gossip level.

When the Church started cracking down on clergy who had women on the side, they also turned a blind eye to growing numbers of gay men entering the seminaries, because no one else was applying for the job! But most of the secretly gay priests in the Catholic Church are not, or were not pedophiles! The scandal is regarding how the Church hierarchy dealt with these abusers and the children and families involved. They were only concerned with the appearance of scandal and just wanted everything hushed up and kept away from the public.

[Oleg Bach]

Russian Christian Orthodox priests are allowed to marry - just once though and just one wife - It works for them and they live balanced lives of spiritual service...Our old priest Father Matthew...was a family associate - very proper man - long white beard - blue satin robes - cool wife - and was a saint that had sex - as God intended....His son was my dads best friend..Where does it say in scripture Thou shall not take a wife? The only place that this is mentioned is in something that is said by Paul--- and he said that it was a choice. Where those dumb Catholics insist that it was not - this is one of the reasons I resent Paulism - The Church was to be built on Jesus - not Peter Paul or Mary!

[betsy]

But none against polygamy....which leads back to the other posters question....did god change its mind?....or does it have something to do with the hellenization that took place in the region and had been taking place sine the time of Alex the really awesome?

Anyway, why are we splitting hairs if polygamy is in the Bible or not?

[betsy]

Umm...no you didn't. And a zero for effort vis a vis slavery.

And why over slavery too?

[betsy]

Wow....I mean ...just wow...

Jesus, when refering to the law, would not have confined the law to the 10....like any Jew today, or 2000 years ago...knew the law to mean the entire mosaic law. I mean really, how hard is it to keep the 10?....Now try and keep the 613 commandments that make up...the LAW.

This is the Mosaic Law:

The Law of Moses Given to Israel

The Mosaic Law is what we are most concerned about in relation to the New Testament believer. This consisted of 365 negative commands and 248 positive for a total of 613 commands. These may also be divided into three parts or sections (see below)—the moral, the social, and the ceremonial. As such, it covered every possible area of the life of Israel. It should be stressed that the moral principles embodied in the Mosaic Law given at Sinai were merely the codified expression of the eternal moral law of God as it was given to Israel to govern her life as a nation in order to experience God’s blessing under the Abrahamic covenant.

The Nature and Content of the Mosaic Law

It is common to divide the Mosaic Law into three parts as illustrated below, but though this is helpful for analysis and the study of the Mosaic Law and the way it functions, such a division is never stated as such in Scripture. Rather it is seen as a unit. Arguments for this will be given below.

•Part 1: The Moral Law or the Ten Commandments. This part of the Law governed the moral life giving guidance to Israel in principles of right and wrong in relation to God and man (Exodus 20:1-17).

•Part 2: The Judgments, or the Social Law. This part of the Law governed Israel in her secular, social, political, and economic life (Exodus 21:1–23:13).

•Part 3: The Ordinances or the Ceremonial Law. This was the religious portion of Law which guided and provided for Israel in her worship and spiritual relationship and fellowship with God. It included the priesthood, tabernacle and sacrifices (Exodus 25:-31: Leviticus).

The Recipients of the Mosaic Law

The Mosaic Law was a bilateral covenant made specifically for Israel alone to govern her life in the promised land.

From the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen.12) we see Israel was a chosen nation, an instrument of God to become a channel of blessing to all nations. Yahweh was her Theocratic King who was to rule and guide the nation in her destiny that she might not become polluted or contaminated by other nations and could thus fulfill her purpose. For this the Mosaic Law was instituted to direct Israel as a nation in all spheres of her life—morally, socially, politically, economically and religiously.

By its very nature, the Mosaic Law was not to be, and could not be, obeyed to the letter by any other people in any other place as a rule of life. However, in the spirit of the Law it did set forth moral principles which were applicable and would bring blessing to all people anywhere and at any time when applied and used as a standard of right and wrong.

http://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament

Not the ENTIRE Mosaic law. I mentioned the 10 Commandments because it mentioned adultery specifically.

Several laws in the Mosaic Law (OT)were given specifically to the Jews, because they were supposed to be a "nation of priests." That's why there were specific instructions how to do specific things - building their temple, offerings and sacrifices, food they're not allowed to eat.

So yes MDancer, I'm like saying....wow! I mean... just wow!

I ask you, how many Christian Jews today still follow the law of killing a lamb as an offering?

Did you ever wonder why Christians are eating pork???

Excerpt from The Mosaic Law: Its Function and Purpose in the New Testament

Study By: J. Hampton Keathley, III

One of the profound emphases of the New Testament, especially the epistles of Paul, is that Christians are no longer under the rule of the Mosaic law. This truth is stated in no uncertain terms and in various ways (see Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21; 5:1, 13; 2 Cor. 3:7-18), but in spite of this, there have always been those who insist that the Mosaic Law, at least the Ten Commandments, are still in force for the Christian.

It seems exceedingly strange that Bible-believing Christians should advocate such a view, when the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the believer in Christ is not any longer under the Mosaic law in its entirety…

http://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament

I mentioned the 10 Commandments because Jesus Christ also mentioned these Commandments. And as I've said, He expanded too, on the meaning of adultery. Therefore I believe that the laws of the 10 Commandments still stands.

MDancer, it's deja vu all over again!

So now you know...that what you think you know....you actually didn't really know.

See? That's why it's so important to read and try to understand the Bible.

Edited August 9, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

The scandal is regarding how the Church hierarchy dealt with these abusers and the children and families involved. They were only concerned with the appearance of scandal and just wanted everything hushed up and kept away from the public.

I agree. And they - the Church heirarchy - of all people, should be the first ones to know that what they do - protecting and transferring predators to other places - is a grievous mistake, since I assume they've read the Book of God!

Their priority should be to protect the innocents.

What's wrong about de-frocking a predator and telling him to go get help?

Edited August 9, 2011 by betsy

[kimmy]

See? That's why it's so important to read and try to understand the Bible.

To try and figure out why a bunch of people decided they're allowed to eat pork?

-k

[cybercoma]

All this talk about rich old guys buying up all the "prime girls" is sexist nonsense. You're all predicating that notion on the idea that women's sexuality is a commodity to be bought and sold. While our society is still patriarchal, shouldn't we be moving away from this knuckle-dragging ignorance into a more enlightened state of equality between the sexes? Women are not whores using sex to procure fiscal security and I find it offensive that the comments in this thread are suggesting that this would be the case on such a wide-scale basis that there would barely be any women left for anyone outside the fiscal upper-class.

[pinko]

All this talk about rich old guys buying up all the "prime girls" is sexist nonsense. You're all predicating that notion on the idea that women's sexuality is a commodity to be bought and sold. While our society is still patriarchal, shouldn't we be moving away from this knuckle-dragging ignorance into a more enlightened state of equality between the sexes? Women are not whores using sex to procure fiscal security and I find it offensive that the comments in this thread are suggesting that this would be the case on such a wide-scale basis that there would barely be any women left for anyone outside the fiscal upper-class.

Hardly sexist nonsense in a cult setting such as that of the FLDS. I am wondering if you have done any reading about the FLDS value system. You have also conventiently overlooked the so called "Lost Boys" in your effort to misrepresent the opposition to the indoctrination utilized by the old white guys within the cult hirearchy in controlling those within the cult.

Edited August 9, 2011 by pinko

[betsy]

To try and figure out why a bunch of people decided they're allowed to eat pork?

-k

Or to get your argument straight if you're going to criticise or use it to make a point. After all, it's only sensible to know or understand the "enemy" before engaging it! Or to criticise it. Or to use it for your argument. Or rebutt.

And most especially if one is going to be mocking about it.

Surely Kimmy, only a fool wouldn't know the importance of that.

Edited August 9, 2011 by betsy

[g_bambino]

Anyway, why are we splitting hairs if polygamy is in the Bible or not? :angry:

Because you said it was important to read the Bible so as not to fall prey to polygamists, when, in fact, the Bible says nothing against polygamy and, in fact, puts it forward as acceptable, at least for some (Abraham, Gideon, Solomon, Jacob, Saul).

[sp]

Edited August 9, 2011 by g_bambino

[Oleg Bach]

To try and figure out why a bunch of people decided they're allowed to eat pork?

-k

People who do not eat pork are those that find the animals that are pork look like pigs. That flat noise and that snorting sound is so unattractive.

[M.Dancer]

FYI: ADULTERY covers all bases! Bigamy is a big no-no too!

Now it is. It was not even a concept in 1st century Judea

[M.Dancer]

See? That's why it's so important to read and try to understand the Bible.

All very fine and good...

So what was Jesus talking about in all your quotes??? The LAW.

What's the law? The Commandments!

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY is one of them!

Furthermore, Jesus really expanded on adultery. He explained what is adultery under the law.

Except when Jesus mentions the law, he means the law....the entire law including the parts that christians ignore

[Oleg Bach]

Now it is. It was not even a concept in 1st century Judea

Humm - boys can marry boys _ I want five hot woman as wives....it is my right...is it not?

[cybercoma]

Hardly sexist nonsense in a cult setting such as that of the FLDS. I am wondering if you have done any reading about the FLDS value system. You have also conventiently overlooked the so called "Lost Boys" in your effort to misrepresent the opposition to the indoctrination utilized by the old white guys within the cult hirearchy in controlling those within the cult.

You're trying to tell me it's not sexist because that's the way things happen in a sexist society. I'm not sure that's the argument you really want to be making.

[pinko]

You're trying to tell me it's not sexist because that's the way things happen in a sexist society. I'm not sure that's the argument you really want to be making.

I am telling you no such thing. I am suggesting you have created a strawman argument on a false premise.

[WIP]

All this talk about rich old guys buying up all the "prime girls" is sexist nonsense. You're all predicating that notion on the idea that women's sexuality is a commodity to be bought and sold.

It is following the trail of evidence of what's happened with every polygamous community studied so far. As long as males and females are born in equal numbers, setting up family structures where some men have more than one woman is going to mean some guy has to go without....it's not rocket science, it's simple arithmetic!

Take a look at the growing concerns that policy makers are having in China, India and a few other countries that favour male babies, where there is growing concern over a surplus of boys, and worries about instability and unrest resulting, and tell me why any society would allow or encourage social structures that mess with maintaining an equal balance?

While our society is still patriarchal, shouldn't we be moving away from this knuckle-dragging ignorance into a more enlightened state of equality between the sexes? Women are not whores using sex to procure fiscal security and I find it offensive that the comments in this thread are suggesting that this would be the case on such a wide-scale basis that there would barely be any women left for anyone outside the fiscal upper-class.

A polygamous society is patriarchal by its very definition! Most patriarchal societies are unofficially polygamous when we consider how the rich men have mistresses and girlfriends for a diversion. Polygamy is only the legal sanctification of such arrangements, so if a billionaire decided to make his mistresses 2nd and 3rd wives etc., there would be nothing his first wife could do about it. Allowing polygamy...which is small and irrelevant at the present time...would turn into a destabilizing force as soon as enough of the rich and powerful were able to legally take as many young women as they like. Such arrangements would increase the social stratification, and end any semblance of democratic society.

And, as noted previously, we could expect a lot more social unrest from young men from low class families, unless the leaders could find more foreign wars to send them off to die for.

[pinko]

With a life sentence now in place for Jeffs I wonder if this will deter the use of underage girls within the confines of this cult. I include in that the FLDS location in Bountiful.

[Michael Hardner]

Allowing polygamy...which is small and irrelevant at the present time...would turn into a destabilizing force as soon as enough of the rich and powerful were able to legally take as many young women as they like. Such arrangements would increase the social stratification, and end any semblance of democratic society.

Pure conjecture. There's no reason why people couldn't engage in responsible polygamy if you take out the cultural co-factors.

[wyly]

With a life sentence now in place for Jeffs I wonder if this will deter the use of underage girls within the confines of this cult. I include in that the FLDS location in Bountiful.

nope...they'll just stop recording the rapes and leave them laying about as souvenirs of the occasion...

[wyly]

A polygamous society is patriarchal by its very definition! Most patriarchal societies are unofficially polygamous when we consider how the rich men have mistresses and girlfriends for a diversion. Polygamy is only the legal sanctification of such arrangements, so if a billionaire decided to make his mistresses 2nd and 3rd wives etc., there would be nothing his first wife could do about it. Allowing polygamy...which is small and irrelevant at the present time...would turn into a destabilizing force as soon as enough of the rich and powerful were able to legally take as many young women as they like. Such arrangements would increase the social stratification, and end any semblance of democratic society.

the first wife could ask for a divorce if she objected to her hubby having a 2nd wife...which is what wives do now when hubby has girlfriend...the rich and the powerful have always had more than thier share of multiple women that isn't anything new and it hasn't destablized our society...

And, as noted previously, we could expect a lot more social unrest from young men from low class families, unless the leaders could find more foreign wars to send them off to die for.

vastly exaggerated, women wouldn't accept it...

[betsy]

Because you said it was important to read the Bible so as not to fall prey to polygamists, when, in fact, the Bible says nothing against polygamy and, in fact, puts it forward as acceptable, at least for some (Abraham, Gideon, Solomon, Jacob, Saul).

[sp]

Pardon me? Either you have trouble reading, or you have a problem understanding.

Here, let me show what you quoted:

Betsy:

Another charismatic opportunistic pedophile who decided to build his own church in Jesus' name and rely on ignorance and weaknesses.

He should be tried and treated as a pedophile, be given a tough sentence if found guilty, and made an example to others. There's so many pedophiles coming out of the woodworks that it's getting to be ridiculous. Something has to be done.

Anyway, that's why it's so important to read the Bible so we do not get misled...or become easy prey to the devil's associates.

Especially if you are a Christian, or someone who seeks God, you have to know for yourself what it is really all about and what is required. It is imperative to read and and try to understand the Bible. You need to be able to discern.

Do you see the word, polygamist, anywhere there?

Why don't you follow the trail.

And not only are you putting words in my mouth...but you're also putting the wrong smiley.

My smiley was an eye-roller, it is appropriate since that's how it felt. The angry smiley you pinned is not....because I am not angry. IF you haven't noticed, it's not anger at all that I feel in most, if not all, of the topics we've been arguing about!

FYI, deliberately mis-quoting someone is dis-honest. There is no rational discussion with someone bent on being dishonest, for how can you reason with a liar?

Edited August 10, 2011 by betsy