What's wrong with Support our Troops stickers on government vehicl

[CitizenX]

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Couldn't that be any job? I've known a few that worked on the rigs and fishing boats prior, they opinion was basic was a cakewalk......

Bullshit.

Wouldn't this Counteract point number two?

1) Do you require evidence or is it just common sense. How many well educated people that come from well-off families do you think join the forces? I'm sure I could find evidence of this somewhere.

2) I'm sure that you can ask anyone that is recruited into the forces and they will tell you the first thing done is that you are broken down then built up again in a way that you follow orders without question.I was a commercial fisherman at one point in my life and that's not something I've experienced.

3) Bullshit???? What are you talking about, I'm pretty sure the majority of soldiers either live on base or where ever they are based.

4) How?

[Guest Derek L]

1) Do you require evidence or is it just common sense. How many well educated people that come from well-off families do you think join the forces? I'm sure I could find evidence of this somewhere.

Do you know the academic requirements to get into RMC?

2) I'm sure that you can ask anyone that is recruited into the forces and they will tell you the first thing done is that you are broken down then built up again in a way that you follow orders without question.I was a commercial fisherman at one point in my life and that's not something I've experienced.

There is a difference between meeting set standards, both physically and mentally, that will allow a person to perform a job successfully, a job in which there is a possibility one could get killed doing and that of brainwashing.

3) Bullshit???? What are you talking about, I'm pretty sure the majority of soldiers either live on base or where ever they are based.

Some live in PMQs (I did for four years) and some live off base…..so what? How does that relate to “limiting interactions with people outside this culture”?

4) How?

Your second point says the members are brainwashed, but in your fourth, these brainwashed members are able to get away with atrocities by simply throwing their superiors under the bus…..

[M.Dancer]

1) Do you require evidence or is it just common sense. How many well educated people that come from well-off families do you think join the forces? I'm sure I could find evidence of this somewhere.

It is your opinion unsupported by fact. The canadians and us forces are some of the best educated in history.

3) Bullshit???? What are you talking about, I'm pretty sure the majority of soldiers either live on base or where ever they are based.

Well, as long as your pretty sure....after all, when you have the night off of course you would spend it on base instead of taking a short drive to Quebec city...afterall, how can Quebec city compare to CFB Valcartier....or why would you have a beer in Edmonton when you can have a beer at the canteen at CFB Edmonton...you get my drift?

Sure, some prefer to live on base...some don't. Your opinion though is without merit.

4) How?

Orders come from above...responsibility stays above.

2) I'm sure that you can ask anyone that is recruited into the forces and they will tell you the first thing done is that you are broken down then built up again in a way that you follow orders without question.

Again, as long as you are sure....actual experience may differ vastly

http://www.army.dnd.ca/land-terre/life-vie/thinking-attendre/training-entrainement-eng.asp

[Wilber]

Maybe we should ask what Wilber what he meant when he responded to the question How can Americans against the Iraq war support their troops when they are involved in an illegal war and responsible for torture.

I don't know how to make it any clearer. Perhaps because they are grown up enough to know the government they elected sent them there so they bear some of the responsibility and unlike you, they don't blame all for the actions of a few.

The government is who gave them the job not the people. If you want to honestly and truly say they did, hold a referendum.

The military doesn't determine the government, the people do. In other words, you.

[CitizenX]

Do you know the academic requirements to get into RMC?

There is a difference between meeting set standards, both physically and mentally, that will allow a person to perform a job successfully, a job in which there is a possibility one could get killed doing and that of brainwashing.

Some live in PMQs (I did for four years) and some live off base…..so what? How does that relate to “limiting interactions with people outside this culture”?

Your second point says the members are brainwashed, but in your fourth, these brainwashed members are able to get away with atrocities by simply throwing their superiors under the bus…..

1)What does the academic requirements to get into RMC have to do with who joins the forces and their social economic background .Is everyone in the forces required to enter this college or is it more likely something they enter later? Isn't this one of the incentives of joining up?

Only facts I can find My link

Education of CF Members. CF members are better educated now than they were in the past. In 1996, 13.4% of service members possessed a university degree, and 10.7% had completed post-secondary education. This is up from 1987 when 10.5% of CF personnel had graduated from a university and 7.2% from a post-secondary institution.

2)"meeting set standards, both physically and mentally" but the main reason for the break you down build you up is to perform a classic brainwashing technique.

How Brainwashing Works

3) Be honest now...when you were in the forces whether living on the base or not are the vast majority of people that you associate also members.Limiting interactions with people outside the culture is just another technique of brainwashing. You always separate the subject to be brainwashed from outside forces.Isolation: the meeting or training takes place in a place where participants are cut off from the outside world. This often involves making a public commitment to stay during the training. When training takes place in isolation like this, there is usually a quick follow-up session to ensure that the technique has really taken hold.

Edited August 3, 2011 by CitizenX

[M.Dancer]

Only facts I can find

Meanwhile in clueless and loving it land....had you actually looked for facts...

Postsecondary degree/diploma 52.6% *

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2008107/pdf/10657-eng.pdf

Edited August 3, 2011 by M.Dancer

[capricorn]

putting the bumper stickers on public transport would be reasonable.

The Supreme Court has already decided this question and from my reading of it, agrees with you.

British Columbia transit officials were on the wrong side of the Charter when they refused to carry messages on the sides of their buses aimed at provincial voters, the country's top court said today.

The Supreme Court of Canada struck down transit policies banning all political ads, saying they violate rights to free speech.

"Like a city street, a city bus is a public place where individuals can openly interact with each other and their surroundings," wrote Justice Marie Deschamps in the 8-0 ruling.

All nine judges heard the case in March 2008 but Justice Michel Bastarache has since retired.

"I do not see any aspect of the location that suggests that expression within it would undermine the values underlying free expression," Deschamps wrote. "On the contrary, the space allows for expression by a broad range of speakers to a large public audience.

"I therefore conclude that the side of a bus is a location where expressive activity is protected by ... the Charter."

The judgment was being watched by cities across Canada that have so far rejected atheist bus banners declaring: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

The ruling protecting political ads will be viewed as a boon to those hoping to buy bus space for their atheist message.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/663948

Seems to me the Supreme Court would make the same finding with regard to federal vehicles.

I'm not saying I agree with the ruling. I oppose using taxpayer funded federal, provincial and municipal property, whatever form it takes, being used to push any political, religious and the like ideological messages, and that necessarily includes support our troops stickers.

I have support the troops stickers and pins which I purchased through the Royal Canadian Legion. The fact that all profits from such sales go to our military and their families is something I wholly agree with. I'm sure the government loves this idea and hopes it flourishes since to a certain extent, it reduces expenditures they would have to make up for if such a community operated effort did not exist.

[CitizenX]

Meanwhile in clueless and loving it land....

Nice argument...I assume you are one of the brainwashed cult members.The truth will set you free

[M.Dancer]

Nice argument...I assume you are one of the brainwashed cult members.The truth will set you free

Not so brainwashed that I would assert opinions of things I am clueless about. I mean really, you have been talking out your arse the entire thread...

Edited August 3, 2011 by M.Dancer

[CitizenX]

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2008107/pdf/10657-eng.pdf

Yaa is this stat off people pre-entrance or after years of training while in the forces. This means nothing.

[CitizenX]

Not so brainwashed that I would assert opinions of things I am clueless about. I mean really, you have been talking out your arse the entire thread...

My point..Brainwashed people don't have opinions of their own.

[M.Dancer]

My point..Brainwashed people don't have opinions of their own.

So you think you are brainwashed and parrot the opinions of the idiotic?

Good for you.

[Wilber]

Yaa is this stat off people pre-entrance or after years of training while in the forces. This means nothing.

Whereas what you pull out of your ass means everything.

[M.Dancer]

Yaa is this stat off people pre-entrance or after years of training while in the forces. This means nothing.

What it means is your assertion:

1) You recruit from communities that are undereducated and have few career options

....has been proven to be ignorant of the reality of today's armed forces.

...much like the rest of the kool-aid you have served. Once you finish high school, try joining a reserve unit to actually see what you are ignorant of.

[CitizenX]

This whole thing has gotten off topic and there too many intellectually challenged people, I'm out

[M.Dancer]

...that's one less intellectually challenged...

[Wilber]

This whole thing has gotten off topic and there too many intellectually challenged people, I'm out

Good, one less.

[bush_cheney2004]

This whole thing has gotten off topic and there too many intellectually challenged people, I'm out

Great...that didn't take long. ARRIVEDERCI!!

[Guest Derek L]

1)What does the academic requirements to get into RMC have to do with who joins the forces and their social economic background .Is everyone in the forces required to enter this college or is it more likely something they enter later? Isn't this one of the incentives of joining up?

Only facts I can find My link

Education of CF Members. CF members are better educated now than they were in the past. In 1996, 13.4% of service members possessed a university degree, and 10.7% had completed post-secondary education. This is up from 1987 when 10.5% of CF personnel had graduated from a university and 7.2% from a post-secondary institution.

RMC is one of the entry plans for officers, most though do go through civilian universities…….A degree is a eventual requirement for all officers…….Non commissioned members (the vast majority) obtain trades/technical training through military programs and to a lesser extent civilian courses……As for incentive, I’m sure for some.

Whats the percentage of Canadians in general with degrees?

2)"meeting set standards, both physically and mentally" but the main reason for the break you down build you up is to perform a classic brainwashing technique.

I’m interested in your incite, please explain how this is done to (uneducated) 19 year olds by (uneducated) 32 year olds.....

3) Be honest now...when you were in the forces whether living on the base or not are the vast majority of people that you associate also members.Limiting interactions with people outside the culture is just another technique of brainwashing. You always separate the subject to be brainwashed from outside forces.Isolation: the meeting or training takes place in a place where participants are cut off from the outside world. This often involves making a public commitment to stay during the training. When training takes place in isolation like this, there is usually a quick follow-up session to ensure that the technique has really taken hold.

You could be describing any work place……….Did you garner your incite first hand? You could easily replace military with McDonalds, Canada Post or a Ford plant……..Do you interact with only people from work and/or school?

[dre]

You could easily replace military with McDonalds

I just dont think wed be as effective on the battlefield. Way to the think outside the box though!

[Guest Derek L]

I just dont think wed be as effective on the battlefield. Way to the think outside the box though!

I’ve never personally worked there, but I’m certain a new employee is taught procedure for making the food properly, handling cash, cleaning your work area, keeping yourself clean and interaction with the public....If you screw up, what happens? If you excel, then what happens?

Edited August 3, 2011 by Derek L

[Army Guy]

Your sterotype is a urban legend, one that dates back as far back as the 50's....when the military was well over 120,000 strong and was used as an employment tool....todays military is only 68,000 strong, and the compition to get in is much greater, so the quality of recruit is going to be much higher.

1) Do you require evidence or is it just common sense. How many well educated people that come from well-off families do you think join the forces? I'm sure I could find evidence of this somewhere.

Here are some facts, every officer must earn a degree before grading RMC, and must continue his education through out his early years Via OPME military courses (not sure how many i thought 12, may be higher,and they msut be completed before a certain piont in their carear) these courses are very intensive, and are acreadited University courses...

As for coming from a well off family alot of officers do come from very well off families, perhaps a quick look at our histroy will change your mind. From captains of industry like the Molson beer empire, to ex NHL hockey players, and it also works in reverse many ex military members have made their mark on our countries history as well...

As for the regular soldier, i have a plt of 30 Infanteers under my command, All have at a minimum completed High school, 11 have atleast i univerisity degree and 3 have multi degrees...These numbers are for an infanteer, and yet the Military has a wide varity of jobs from carpenter,medic,space comms tech,,to doctor, nurse , surgeon, just assuming they all need people with some form of education.....As for they're back ground, they all differ, as the military is made up from every corner of our great country....and while yes a few have joined because options were limited, they hardly make the majority...

2) I'm sure that you can ask anyone that is recruited into the forces and they will tell you the first thing done is that you are broken down then built up again in a way that you follow orders without question.I was a commercial fisherman at one point in my life and that's not something I've experienced.

It is true you are broken down both phyiscally and mentally, is it a from of brain washing or is it a form of selcetion, or as we call it weeding out those unfit to continue training....Not many recruits show up to the recruiting center already in peak phyiscal condition capable of doing 10 km run in under 50 mins.....so to wipe them into this type of condition there are serveral programs PT is done atleast twice a day, and is incorpated in to alot of other training as well, running, circut training, marching all form this intensive PT periods....and while standards are not as high in Basic as they are in the actual units any soldier is required to be physically fit....

for obvious reasons Cambat is a extreme physical event, and if your not fit you will not survive, and will put the lives of your comrads in danger...

They also test you mentally,for good reason this person may be in charge of a multi million dollar wpn system capable of taking out a small city....you want this person to be mentally stable don't you.... stress is every where in basic training, and for some teenager use to sitting on mom's couch then being introduced to some screaming Mcpl at basic your frigging right it's stressfull it's meant to be for a lots of reasons....remember when everyone is running away from gun fire we are running to it, you want a physically and mentally fit person doing that, our lifes depend on each other and i don't need the extra stress wondering if they have my back or not...

3) Bullshit???? What are you talking about, I'm pretty sure the majority of soldiers either live on base or where ever they are based.

This use to be a fact, our government use to provide housing well below the local rent, or mortage rates....not so now, it's been that way for years now, the military housing orginally built in the 50's must meet local rent minimums for the same compareable space...it's now cheaper to have your own mortage, or rent your own modern apartment with all the modern toys inside.....Today the majority of soldiers live on the local econemy, mixed in with other canadian citizens....a quick walk through any PMQ area on base will quickly tell you a good chunck of them are empty...in fact DND has taken on serveral projects on many bases to reduce these PMQS as they are becomeing to difficult to maintain and heat...

4) You create a hierarchy that enables individuals to off-load the blame of immoral acts to an

authority over them.

Not so every individual soldier is responsiable for his own actions, what i think your getting confused with is the chain of command is also held responsiable for his soldiers actions and shortfalls, for instance a soldier fails to meet his timings because his supervisor failed to inform him both will be punished to some degree.....

If a soldier murders someone on the battle field and it is concluded through investagation he acted on his own the soldier will face punishment alone.

So yes there are times when the chain of command are also held accountable for their actions...if it is through the supervisor neglect the action took place....however other than that the soldier is always held accountable for his actions....

As for following orders blindly, not so each soldier is taught what is right and wrong from the beginning, their introduced to military law, genva conventions, and inter national law, and the law of conflict, and each soldier will continue this training through out his carear, and before deployment....There is no excuse for not knowing what is a lawful command and what is unlawful...everyone is held accountable from private to Gen.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Army Guy

[Oleg Bach]

For good and just reasons or deployment of troops with evil intent and corrupt motives - It does not matter. If you are going to use troops...You are duty bound and morally committed to care for the injured - the families of casualties..etc..No veteran should have to worry about money for the rest of his or her life - If a citizen is willing to put down their life for a cause - good or bad - the nation is perminently beholding to them to the bitter end.

[M.Dancer]

You could be describing any work place……….Did you garner your incite first hand? You could easily replace military with McDonalds, Canada Post or a Ford plant……..Do you interact with only people from work and/or school?

You are absolutely right. I know journalists who hardly ever interact outside their own families with non journalists....and university students....at that tender, impressionable young age are with other students 24/7

[eyeball]

I don't know how to make it any clearer. Perhaps because they are grown up enough to know the government they elected sent them there so they bear some of the responsibility and unlike you, they don't blame all for the actions of a few.

The military doesn't determine the government, the people do. In other words, you.

I guess we're all getting what we want and deserve then.