maple_leafs182 Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 ML, you're living in the last century. The 20th century, if anything, proved that various grand social planners or schemes for the perfect society lead to horrible results. No one in the 21st century will follow anyone with a "grand scheme". That time is past. I never offered a grand social plan or scheme. Quote │ _______ [███STOP███]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ :::::::--------------Conservatives beleive ▄▅█FUNDING THIS█▅▄▃▂- - - - - --- -- -- -- -------- Liberals lie I██████████████████] ...◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙'(='.'=)' ⊙
eyeball Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 A few years ago I met a man from Barbados..he had some thoughts on poverty. He said poverty was much stranger in Canada, where there are relatively few poor people, than in Barbadoes, where there are many. He said, in Canada, the poor could go hungry if they don't have money, in Barbados, if the poor are hungry, they: fish, pick fruit/vegetables, sell shells to sea side sightseers... If the poor just helped themselves to the natural resources in Canada the way you've implied they can in Barbados the owners of our privatized resources would have the state's officials arresting and throwing them in jail for theft. $10 bucks you'd be cheering for the cops and corporate share-holders you usually reserve your pity and adoration for. He said in Barbados, the poor cannot afford electricity...in Canada, the poor cannot afford premium cable services.He said the poor in Canada are lazy....the poor in Barbados are not but have little opportunity....which is why you do not see very many poor bajans in Canada... No kidding, it sounds like the poor on Barbados have it made. Living on the beach off the fat of the land and sea, especially without some fucking state official breathing down your neck at the behest of some fucking rich slob sounds pretty good to me. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 If the poor just helped themselves to the natural resources in Canada the way you've implied they can in Barbados the owners of our privatized resources would have the state's officials arresting and throwing them in jail for theft. Yeah...and I'm sure if the dregs of vancouver upped and started fishing in your patch, you would be helping the authorities haul them in....for their own protection of course... ...and of course, no one ever goes blueberry picking off the side of the highway in canada... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 ja mon, i an i is poor, but I help meself to the natural uranium that hangs low on the vine to get what a mon needs..... :lol: Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
WWWTT Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 ...yet their GDP per capita ranks at about #100 in the world. One would expect more after 5000 years! I'm not sure if that number is correct due to the cost of living there?But you are right in implying that it is lower than here(actually come to think of it when you factor cost of living and the cost of manufactured goods in China,you are a ways off) However it is climbing at a very fast rate and it has become obvious that this ratio will match ous,and with their higher efficiency and hard work ethics they will surpass us. Currently their population is double to triple that of the combined G7 so ya I'm right! Another point is that the industrial revolution started less than 200 hundreds yrs ago and currently most countries in the world have greater than 40% of their economies based in agriculture.So to imply that China have had the opportunity to be a modern industrialized nation for the last 5000yrs is false! In fact it was China that invented the use/exploitation of fossil fuels and paper currency,these two inventions are massive pillars and/or cornerstones of the industrial revolution and capitalism!Without them the industrial revolution would have never happened at all! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
eyeball Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) Yeah...and I'm sure if the dregs of vancouver upped and started fishing in your patch, you would be helping the authorities haul them in....for their own protection of course... They'd perish long before they got anywhere near my spots. ...and of course, no one ever goes blueberry picking off the side of the highway in canada... Try selling them and see what happens. You'd have the state's Nannies all over you like shit on brown. What was that about free trade again? Edited July 21, 2011 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 I'm not sure if that number is correct due to the cost of living there? cost of living has no bearing on GDP Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 They'd perish long before they got anywhere near my spots. So your analogy was spurious. Try selling them and see what happens. You'd have the state's Nannies all over you like shit on brown. The Bajans don't sell the fruit, they eat it...do you have a rational point to make or is ity you just feel like being a broken tool? What was that about free trade again? I guess you don't have a point... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 ja mon, i an i is poor, but I help meself to the natural uranium that hangs low on the vine to get what a mon needs..... :lol: Yeah but how funny do you think it would be if people sustained themselves by something more realistic like cutting down a tree and selling it or planting a garden in a park? You're saying people shouldn't have the right to sustain themselves with the resources that surround them? I'm pretty sure you'll find that's a universal human right. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
WWWTT Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 cost of living has no bearing on GDP Oh ok then so if housing,food and transportation is less there then here would I still need to earn as much there as we do here(for similar service or job) to enjoy the same standard of living? WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 Yeah but how funny do you think it would be if people sustained themselves by something more realistic like cutting down a tree and selling it or planting a garden in a park? I think it would be very funny. You're saying people shouldn't have the right to sustain themselves with the resources that surround them? You are listening to the random echoes in your head again. To help you divide reality from your normal state, find where I said that. I'm pretty sure you'll find that's a universal human right. Here, knock yourself out and find it yourself http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 I guess you don't have a point... So what was the point of your pointing out why we don't see any poor Bajans in Canada? Do they or don't they have it better there than our poor do here? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 So what was the point of your pointing out why we don't see any poor Bajans in Canada? Do they or don't they have it better there than our poor do here? He said the poor in Canada are lazy....the poor in Barbados are not but have little opportunity....which is why you do not see very many poor bajans in Canada... reading comprehension, try it someday.... Ummmm....are you one of those who see nobility in poverty...they don't...that's why they leave...so they won't be poor. They come here, work their asses off, send their kids to university so they won't be poor either. You should consider that strategy. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 So what was the point of your pointing out why we don't see any poor Bajans in Canada? Do they or don't they have it better there than our poor do here? Our poor are far better off....ours have electricity... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Moonlight Graham Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 He said the poor in Canada are lazy....the poor in Barbados are not but have little opportunity....which is why you do not see very many poor bajans in Canada... `The poor are lazy` is a garbage stereotype. Yes there are some lazy poor people (as there are in Barbados too). There are also poor people in Canada who are physically or mentally disabled, many of them elderly. Or poor people who were sexually or physically abused as kids, ran away from home, dropped out of school, lived on the streets for a while or went through foster homes without much of a hope in hell...and certainly wouldn`t in a country without those evil social programs. If anyone here thinks the majority of people who are on social assistance (aka welfare) are lazy, go to your local food bank and listen to the stories of those people and it will have you eating crow real quick. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Jack Weber Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) The problem is the poor of the world are learning how to be as productive as people in rich countries which means there is no longer any reason to keep jobs in rich countries. This means that rich country wages must go down. It is inevitable. You can whine and complain but nothing is going to change that reality. This is not about ideology but about the cold hard facts of economics. Beautiful... You hit one of the Free Marketeer Magic Word(s)... "Productive"... For example,when I was in shipbuilding,we could construct a forebody (bow to accommodation) in less time,with less man hours,and,with light years better quality than anything coming from China... Yet we still lost contracts... Wanna know why??? Hint (it has very little to do with productivity) The rest of your stuff up there is simply a tacit admission that free market economics is simply a race to the bottom for most people.The egalitarian angle out of it,I suppose,is that most of this world will be equally poorer because of it... Edited July 21, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
TimG Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) For example,when I was in shipbuilding,we could construct a forebody (bow to accommodation) in less time,with less man hours,and,with light years better quality than anything coming from China...You don't understand productivity. You have to multiply the hours by the wage rate. So people working more hours at a lower wage can be more productive than you.It used to be that we could pay more and be more productive but the chinese have closed that gap in productivity even though their workers are paid less. Edited July 21, 2011 by TimG Quote
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 Yes there are some lazy poor people (as there are in Barbados too). There are also poor people in Canada who are physically or mentally disabled, many of them elderly. Saying the poor are disabled or mentally ill is also a stereotype. I think if you could quantify the numbers, the disabled, the mentally ill would be a minoirity. Or poor people who were sexually or physically abused as kids, ran away from home, dropped out of school, lived on the streets for a while or went through foster homes without much of a hope in hell...and certainly wouldn`t in a country without those evil social programs. That happens to all kind of people...it in itself is not a reason for poverty, it is an excuse. Should the person who decides to ....ummm.....get and education and work despite the traumas, get extra credit? If anyone here thinks the majority of people who are on social assistance (aka welfare) are lazy, go to your local food bank and listen to the stories of those people and it will have you eating crow real quick. I bet you have never been to a food bank...watching the able bodies stroll in and tote the loot out...what's more, I bet you haven't been to the bingo hall the day the welfare cheques come in....if you want to really talk to the poor..you would hear the stories, the dodges, the scams and how they can make middle class dogooders feel so bad they would eat crow....gimme a schmoke eh, and I will tell you sumptink Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
WWWTT Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 cost of living has no bearing on GDP Actually when I think about this statement that you have written it is obvious you have no concept or sence of gravity of what this thread is about. Things are getting worse in Canada/US. I personally do not buy the talk about cheaper imported goods being responsible for the demise of our standard of living. Imports only account for a percentage and do not include essential services and agricultural,mineral,fosil fuel,etc,etc resources. Some others here also blame government spending but somehow it is implied or assumed that this only involves unionized employees or postal workers and never military/police/courts/upper and lower house salaries-pensions-staff operating expences(parliament in general)/corporate welfare. Lots of propoganda and red herrings to look past to see the real culprits. WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) I'm not sure if that number is correct due to the cost of living there?But you are right in implying that it is lower than here(actually come to think of it when you factor cost of living and the cost of manufactured goods in China,you are a ways off) Rural China is still poor....by anyone's standards. Have you ever been to China? However it is climbing at a very fast rate and it has become obvious that this ratio will match ous,and with their higher efficiency and hard work ethics they will surpass us. OK...let us know when this happens. So far, they are copying the current leader at every turn. Currently their population is double to triple that of the combined G7 so ya I'm right! Sorry, but this kind of math only hurts your argument. Another point is that the industrial revolution started less than 200 hundreds yrs ago and currently most countries in the world have greater than 40% of their economies based in agriculture.So to imply that China have had the opportunity to be a modern industrialized nation for the last 5000yrs is false! Many enabling technologies actually came from China....yet it was unable to capitalize on them. China continued to hold itself back with political ideology well into the last century, then they (Deng) wised up. In fact it was China that invented the use/exploitation of fossil fuels and paper currency,these two inventions are massive pillars and/or cornerstones of the industrial revolution and capitalism!Without them the industrial revolution would have never happened at all! Ahem....I think you just agreed with my point above. So why did China miss out for so long? Edited July 21, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Jack Weber Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 You don't understand productivity. You have to multiply the hours by the wage rate. So people working more hours at a lower wage can be more productive than you. It used to be that we could pay more and be more productive but the chinese have closed that gap in productivity even though their workers are paid less. Oh,I understand productivity very well... There's two ways Western industry gets more productive... 1) Automation of former tasks done in a more labour intensive fashion 2)Multicrafting The problem with the Chinese shipbuilding model (and this is just one example),is that they are'nt more productive at all!!!ShangHai has shipyard were there are 5000 men on the job and they get paid peanuts.They do garbage work in some of the most unsafe conditions on the planet(next to...I don't know...A Chinese coal mine,for example). It's simply cheaper to do jobs where life is considered cheap and the labour is treated as such... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
M.Dancer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 Actually when I think about this statement that you have written it is obvious you have no concept or sence of gravity of what this thread is about. Har! Things are getting worse in Canada/US. No to my eyes I personally do not buy the talk about cheaper imported goods being responsible for the demise of our standard of living. Niether do I. Cheap goods are part of the reason why our standard of living is higher that say, china's... Imports only account for a percentage and do not include essential services and agricultural,mineral,fosil fuel,etc,etc resources. aprospos to what? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Jack Weber Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 Niether do I. Cheap goods are part of the reason why our standard of living is higher that say, china's... Do you think our burgeoning service sector "McJob" economy will support our standard of living long term? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
TimG Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 Oh,I understand productivity very well...You answers make it clear that you don't have a clue what productivity is from the perspective of a company. What you are talking about is 'labour productivity' which is useful when optimizing a process but does not allow one to compare different processes. If an operation with 5000 people that produces the same ship for half the price of an operation with 100 people then the economic output per unit of economic input (i.e. productivity) of the first operation is higher. You complaints about quality are immaterial if the people buying the ships do not put much economic value on higher quality. Quote
WWWTT Posted July 21, 2011 Report Posted July 21, 2011 Rural China is still poor....by anyone's standards. Have you ever been to China? OK...let us know when this happens. So far, they are copying the current leader at every turn. Sorry, but this kind of math only hurts your argument. Many enabling technologies actually came from China....yet it was unable to capitalize on them. China continued to hold itself back with political ideology well into the last century, then they (Deng) wised up. Ahem....I think you just agreed with my point above. So why did China miss out for so long? Ok I can spare a few minutes to argue with you here. I have bein to China four times,Hunan,Guangxi,Guangdong provinces,Hong Kong and Macau.These places are all in the south and yes I have visited rural aswell as urban. Have you ever bein to some of the poorer areas in Canada? So please explain how they are copying current leaders?And I guess they are only copying how to be successful.When I last checked we are just barely getting out of a recession.Are they copying how to get into recessions aswell or were they sick that day when this was being taught in economics 101?(This is actually one of the most lamest points I have ever heard someone use for an argument) As far as why China has not bein able to catch up to the west until the last 30-40 yrs is very simple.Ever hear about Japanese occupation,civil war,impearalism,attempted colonialization or WW2? WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
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