Why Do Poland & Russia Not Have to Give Back Territory...

[Sir Bandelot]

Interesting given that there are more Jews in USA than in Israel.

America did not accept Jewish refugees neither.

In the years before and during World War II the United States Congress, the Roosevelt Administration, and public opinion expressed concern about the fate of Jews in Europe but consistently refused to permit large-scale immigration of Jewish refugees.

In a report issued by the State Department, Undersecretary of State Stuart Eizenstat noted that the United States accepted only 21,000 refugees from Europe and did not significantly raise or even fill its restrictive quotas, accepting far fewer Jews per capita than many of the neutral European countries and fewer in absolute terms than Switzerland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_United_States#Refugees_from_Nazi_Germany

If you don't like that link I'm sure I can find many others to back up the assertion.

Funny also that the non jewish americans aren't planting bombs in Forest Hills falafel shops like the palestinians, who, apparently react the way the rest of the world does...

Speaking of 'irrelevant'...

[M.Dancer]

Speaking of 'irrelevant'...

indeed

[Saipan]

No one in the world wanted the Jews. Absolutely no one.

Since when do you speak for no one?

People (not politicians) risked their very lives to save Jews during WW II.

[Saipan]

In a report issued by the State Department, Undersecretary of State Stuart Eizenstat noted that the United States accepted only 21,000 refugees from Europe and did not significantly raise or even fill its restrictive quotas, accepting far fewer Jews per capita than many of the neutral European countries and fewer in absolute terms than Switzerland.

So how is it that there are so many Jews in USA, and the Left & Arabs are moaning about "Jew running the US government"?

[bush_cheney2004]

So how is it that there are so many Jews in USA....

Long before 20th century restrictions, Jews by the hundreds of thousands had emigrated to the US from the UK, Germany, Russia, and other eastern European nations. By WW2 there were millions of American Jews, many of whom served (and died) in the war effort.

In other words, "Jews" are American as apple pie!

[bloodyminded]

So how is it that there are so many Jews in USA, and the Left & Arabs are moaning about "Jew running the US government"?

Actually, the political Right beats out the Left any day for its paranoia about the Jews.

Hell, the very notion of the "leftwing media" is directly descended from the "Jews control the media" theory of years back.

So when you hear about the "left wing bias" in the media, Saipan...now you know from whence it came.

Edited July 6, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

Actually, the political Right beats out the Left any day for its paranoia about the Jews.

Not anymore. The left has been proudly carrying the torch of anti-Semitism for decades, now. While at the extreme ends of both there seems to be a convergence on the issue of anti-Semitism, in a general sense, the left absolutely leads the charge of anti-Semitism (more often than not masquerading as anti-Zionism).

Hell, the very notion of the "leftwing media" is directly descended from the "Jews control the media" theory of years back.

So when you hear about the "left wing bias" in the media, Saipan...now you know from whence it came.

Not really. The media is left-wing, generally speaking. It's funny that you regularly challenge this reality. No amount of evidence would be able to convince you of this, however, so perhaps I shouldn't go into detail about personal stories from prominent media personalities who describe this in detail, or political support from media figures, or our own extensive experience with it.

The "Jews control the media" gambit is not some false assertion upon which the description of the media as being generally left-leaning is built. It is pure garbage to suggest that the description of the media as generally left-leaning is the product of anti-Semitic rhetoric about Jewish control of the media.

[bloodyminded]

Not anymore. The left has been proudly carrying the torch of anti-Semitism for decades, now.

I really don't think that's the case. While I don't doubt for an instant that there are leftwing antisemites--why should the Left magically be free of such a traditional and pervasive bigotry as anti-semitism?--I remain unconvinced that it's a lot of them.

The problem facing those concerned about leftist antisemitism is comprehensible to me: with few exceptions, a Lefty is not going to feel too comfortable promoting, outright, hatred for Jews. It goes against the anti-bigotry that has been a cherished part of leftwing thought at least since the early 60's and the Civil rights movement. It doesn't fly too well among some of the comrades.

Therefore, the lefties aren't like the Nazi skinheads; they aren't going to openly promote antisemitism.

So, if it's going to be discovered, it has to be sussed out in other ways.

I get all that.

However, a serious poroblem arises: call it "a shotgun blast in the dark." You may (or may not) hit your target; but you're going to spray surrounding non-targets as well.

You're going to hit them whether you hit your target or not. And there are more not guilty than guilty among those hit. Waaaay more.

I think people who are not at all antisemites are routinely painted as such. (Hell, Rue is doing it to me as we speak, on another thread: continually, relentlessly. Therefore, there's no way to take him seriously.) I believe the number of poeple falsely accused profoundly outweighs the number who are accused.

I'm not making any Victim claim here, just to clarify. But it's not only really unfair, and extremely unpleasant, believe me, to be termed an anti-semite; I also can't see how it wouldn't distract from the actual problem of actual antisemitism.

Besides, who really wants to be calling people Jew-haters...if the people aren't Jew-haters? I wouldn't think folks would enjoy using slurs on those who don't deserve them. (Hell, even on those who might not deserve them.)

Not really. The media is left-wing, generally speaking. It's funny that you regularly challenge this reality. No amount of evidence would be able to convince you of this, however, so perhaps I shouldn't go into detail about personal stories from prominent media personalities who describe this in detail, or political support from media figures, or our own extensive experience with it.

No, it isn't left wing generally speaking. Certainly not. And the way you buttress your thesis here helps explain the misconception:

You can't determine "general" "leftwing bias" through the opinions of a few prominent media personalities. They tend to have a profoundly skewed vision of their own profession as it is. (Often, these sycophants consider themselves "too combative" to powerful interests. Which is hilarious.) And in fact, that so many "prominent media personalities" would disagree with you, based on what you perceive as their leftwing bias, should be giving you pause anyway, about such an improvised, necessarily scattershot method of selectively discovering bias.

The way to determine media bias, and in which direction(s) it moves, is to undertake an institutional analysis. That's the only way, because we're talking about complex, but interrelated institutional structures.

I don't conside the media biased to the Right wing, either, in case you're wondering. Right and left, aside from some marginal issues and instances, are beside the point. The bias is towards Power...institutional, Establishment power, which is an admixture of "liberal" and "conservatove" which are not profoundly different anyway.

Of course the corporations called "news media," and the larger conglomerates to which they belong, are going to be Establishment organs that support and defend the interests of political and business power on an idelogical level. How could they behave otherwise?

Their primary revenue stream is in selling consumers to Businesses, mostly through advertising, but also through Stealth Marketing.

Their primary sources--by a long shot--are Government and Business spokespeople (or other news sources, whose sourcing is just that). To be more clear: their primary sources are expert PR agents who tell the government line and the big business line, whicn is then "reported." Then, they "report" what the competing politician or Business spokesperson says...even though they're all aprt of the precise same Establishment, who support the same economic paradigm (again, with marginal differences), and the same foreign wars, and so on.

Well, that's stenography, actually, a few bits of mild disseet at the margins notwithstanding.

Where is a "leftwing bias" going to grab a foothold here?

For that matter, I think we'd have to determine what constitutes a "leftwing bias"...not everyone would agree on that point alone.

But it's ultimately moot, Ii believe, for the reasons I've already stated. (And others; I'm barely warmed up! )

The "Jews control the media" gambit is not some false assertion upon which the description of the media as being generally left-leaning is built. It is pure garbage to suggest that the description of the media as generally left-leaning is the product of anti-Semitic rhetoric about Jewish control of the media.

It does seem a stretch, now you mention it. I think it would work nicely as a comparative allegory in a political novel; it seems like something Mordecai Richler might have done.

But in a political debate? Nnot so much.

Edited July 6, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Bonam]

Their primary sources--by a long shot--are Government and Business spokespeople (or other news sources, whose sourcing is just that). To be more clear: their primary sources are expert PR agents who tell the government line and the big business line, whicn is then "reported." Then, they "report" what the competing politician or Business spokesperson says...even though they're all aprt of the precise same Establishment, who support the same economic paradigm (again, with marginal differences), and the same foreign wars, and so on.

There's plenty of ways to quote some politician's words and still inject your own ideological opinion/bias. News media certainly use politicians and business spokespeople as a big chunk of their primary sources, as you say, but what they do with that differs a fair bit. Your description applies equally well to Fox and CBC, for example, and yet I don't think anyone would deny that the two outlets provide a very different overall context and ideological bias.

[Bob]

I really don't think that's the case. While I don't doubt for an instant that there are leftwing antisemites--why should the Left magically be free of such a traditional and pervasive bigotry as anti-semitism?--I remain unconvinced that it's a lot of them.

What I'm saying is that contemporarily, the left is the loudest voice of anti-Semitism. I'd go so far to say this phenomenon is at least a century old. I already stated that as we go further to the left or right on the spectrum, both sides converge on this issue. Are a lot of leftists anti-Semites? I didn't say that. Is the left today's loudest group of anti-Semites? Without question. Do you really want to go into detail? I realize that many obvious truths are not as self-evident to people such as yourself.

The problem facing those concerned about leftist antisemitism is comprehensible to me: with few exceptions, a Lefty is not going to feel too comfortable promoting, outright, hatred for Jews. It goes against the anti-bigotry that has been a cherished part of leftwing thought at least since the early 60's and the Civil rights movement. It doesn't fly too well among some of the comrades.

Whatever. I never really believed that anti-Semites who associate themselves with the left were really grounded in principle, rather, they masquerade as being proponents of this value or that value in order to obfuscate their prejudice. Look, I think we're spending too much time on this. I've arrived at my assessment of the left being the contemporary champions of anti-Semitism, particularly with respect to Israel and the "Palestinian plight" after plenty of time and consideration of the matter.

Therefore, the lefties aren't like the Nazi skinheads; they aren't going to openly promote antisemitism.

I think people who are not at all antisemites are routinely painted as such. (Hell, Rue is doing it to me as we speak, on another thread: continually, relentlessly. Therefore, there's no way to take him seriously.) I believe the number of poeple falsely accused profoundly outweighs the number who are accused.

I'm not making any Victim claim here, just to clarify. But it's not only really unfair, and extremely unpleasant, believe me, to be termed an anti-semite; I also can't see how it wouldn't distract from the actual problem of actual antisemitism.

Besides, who really wants to be calling people Jew-haters...if the people aren't Jew-haters? I wouldn't think folks would enjoy using slurs on those who don't deserve them. (Hell, even on those who might not deserve them.)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - particular criticisms of Israel are often ignorantly anti-Semitic. You're guilty of this, for example, through your rejection of the legitimacy of the blockade on Gaza. You don't even realize what you're doing, which is attacking a legitimate means of self-defense which has arisen from experience. The Kassams and Katyushas are not imaginary, neither are the RPGs, AK-47s, or explosives/IEDs. The terrorists that have murdered and injured (not to mentioned thwarted plots) who came from Gaza are not figments of our imagination. The murdered victims buried in our cemeteries are an eternal reminder of the threat we face from these people and their ideology. Israel has a legitimate need to place restrictions on the passage of goods and people into and out of Gaza across its shared border as well as the coastal border, to reduce the REAL risk posed to us. Yet all of this is regularly ignored by people like you who use empty rhetoric invoking "international law" or "collective punishment" or "siege" or "human rights" or any other hollow buzzword. Does that mean you're anti-Semitic? No, but your position on this issue as well as others are perfect examples of ignorant anti-Semitism - as if Jews don't have a right to engage in necessary actions to protect ourselves. Even worse, when people like you actually do acknowledge the threat from Gaza (which is rare), you invariably blame us for causing it. As if we're responsible for compelling Gazans to walk into discotheques to mass murder teenagers.

No, it isn't left wing generally speaking. Certainly not. And the way you buttress your thesis here helps explain the misconception:

You can't determine "general" "leftwing bias" through the opinions of a few prominent media personalities. They tend to have a profoundly skewed vision of their own profession as it is. (Often, these sycophants consider themselves "too combative" to powerful interests. Which is hilarious.) And in fact, that so many "prominent media personalities" would disagree with you, based on what you perceive as their leftwing bias, should be giving you pause anyway, about such an improvised, necessarily scattershot method of selectively discovering bias.

The way to determine media bias, and in which direction(s) it moves, is to undertake an institutional analysis. That's the only way, because we're talking about complex, but interrelated institutional structures.

I don't conside the media biased to the Right wing, either, in case you're wondering. Right and left, aside from some marginal issues and instances, are beside the point. The bias is towards Power...institutional, Establishment power, which is an admixture of "liberal" and "conservatove" which are not profoundly different anyway.

Of course the corporations called "news media," and the larger conglomerates to which they belong, are going to be Establishment organs that support and defend the interests of political and business power on an idelogical level. How could they behave otherwise?

Their primary revenue stream is in selling consumers to Businesses, mostly through advertising, but also through Stealth Marketing.

Their primary sources--by a long shot--are Government and Business spokespeople (or other news sources, whose sourcing is just that). To be more clear: their primary sources are expert PR agents who tell the government line and the big business line, whicn is then "reported." Then, they "report" what the competing politician or Business spokesperson says...even though they're all aprt of the precise same Establishment, who support the same economic paradigm (again, with marginal differences), and the same foreign wars, and so on.

Well, that's stenography, actually, a few bits of mild disseet at the margins notwithstanding.

Where is a "leftwing bias" going to grab a foothold here?

For that matter, I think we'd have to determine what constitutes a "leftwing bias"...not everyone would agree on that point alone.

But it's ultimately moot, Ii believe, for the reasons I've already stated. (And others; I'm barely warmed up! )

I can buy that, the media is biased towards "power", at least in certain instances. And you're right about this being a mixture of both left (expanding government power) and right (covering for business abuses under the guise of free-market). In other words, support for power can transcend left/right categorizations. Still, I find the media biased to the left. Whether it's the CBC, CNN, the BBC or Channel 1 in Israel, it's all leaning to the left. I'm not sure exactly why, but it's a phenomenon I see every day, day in and day out.

As far as your assertion that corporate media is beholden to big business advertising interests and is unwilling or unable to report on them in an objective manner, your point is minuscule. It's a two-way street. BP can't just bail out on spending money on PR. I would argue that the corporate media has as much influence over the large companies and vice versa. Although of course there is a conflict of interest when they are actually owned by the same entity, like GE's ownership of media. Anyways, it's complicated - but your assertion is simplistic, and moreover, it cannot be reconciled with the leftist bias many of us see every day in most of the media.

[Saipan]

Actually, the political Right beats out the Left any day for its paranoia about the Jews.

Must be why Jews are escaping left wing paradise countries.

And why Jews are not at all enthusiastic about Obama or racists like Jimmy Carter.

[Bob]

Must be why Jews are escaping left wing paradise countries.

Great point. That reminds me, I saw this interesting series of videos by Milton Friedman on YouTube on how free countries (economically and socially) were the greatest blessing to benefit Jews in modern times, while lamenting the seeming paradox of so many of the left's prominent intellectual figurehead having a Jewish connection. Which leads me into my next point...

And why Jews are not at all enthusiastic about Obama or racists like Jimmy Carter.

...you say that, but Obama got about 75% of the Jewish vote in 2008. It is absurd, I know, but that's how it is. I hope and anticipate that this will drop in 2012, but Jews tend to reflexively vote for leftist political parties in Western democracies. Somehow we're dumb enough to believe in the lies from the left that they are advancing our interests, and that they protect equality for minorities.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Bob

[Oleg Bach]

Obama is a simplton and a rat. Nice to see you BOB - one of the more interesting people on the board...Israel has one common problem while Obama is in office - betrayal - Between that hag Hillary Clinton and Obama who both now embrace the Muslim Brotherhood as if they are to be respected...is something of serious concern - The world has gone mad...keep a cool head Bob ...and do not let emotion rule you - That is what they want - all these lawyers are highly dependent on the manipulation of human feelings - don't let them move you - Good luck!

[Oleg Bach]

Obama is a simplton and a rat. Nice to see you BOB - one of the more interesting people on the board...Israel has one common problem while Obama is in office - betrayal - Between that hag Hillary Clinton and Obama who both now embrace the Muslim Brotherhood as if they are to be respected...is something of serious concern - The world has gone mad...keep a cool head Bob ...and do not let emotion rule you - That is what they want - all these lawyers are highly dependent on the manipulation of human feelings - don't let them move you - Good luck!

[eyeball]

So Bob, is it fair to say the bottom line reads, whoever isn't always with Israel 100% no matter what is an anti-semite?

That sounds like the pure gist of what you're saying.

[Oleg Bach]

So Bob, is it fair to say the bottom line reads, whoever isn't always with Israel 100% no matter what is an anti-semite?

That sounds like the pure gist of what you're saying.

Every one has a streak of evil intent on occasion - including you and I and that saintly state of Israel. Put it this way - are all Jewish lawyers good people? No they are not - there are some good ones - and some are bastards just like all others - To say Israel or any other place is without sin or crime is utter foolishness and an attemnpt to create a super crimminal without a crimminal record - those are hard to arrest let alone convict.

[Saipan]

Care to elaborate?

Yes, palestinian Arabs* started every terrorist attack.

(* Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians)

[jbg]

Jews were peaceful for centuries - and paid for it dearly. Nearly exterminated. FINALLY they learned their lesson.

THOSE WHO BEAT THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES PLOW FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T.

I think western democratic states should be held to a higher standard of behaviour than tinpot dictatorships and oppressive theocracies.

Saipan says it all, as far as Black Dog's post on another thread. Western democracies' higher standards are not a suicide pact.

[Oleg Bach]

Long before 20th century restrictions, Jews by the hundreds of thousands had emigrated to the US from the UK, Germany, Russia, and other eastern European nations. By WW2 there were millions of American Jews, many of whom served (and died) in the war effort.

In other words, "Jews" are American as apple pie!

They make for good comedy also - I still say we should practice anti-Italianism and sting them all up for killing Jesus. Why is it that the story of the execution and so-called trail of Christ is not looked up with a good set of legalist eyes....who gave the order to do away with the guy - It was Ponitius Pilate who said - "The guy is not guilty but lets kill him any way to maintain the power of ROME over you idiots - Last thing we need is a king of the Jews or a threat to Roman authority..in the form of un-appeased creeps - The Italians killed Christ and turned him into a religion.

[Saipan]

Italians did kill Jesus but it sounds so much better when we say "Jews did it"

[bud]

bob and the rest of the zionist propagandists will continue to play the victim card with the bs cries (want to push us into the sea, leftwing/anti-semite media, etc. etc.) while in reality, all they want to do is for people to accept one of the worst and longest human rights violations since world war 2.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... while in reality, all they want to do is for people to accept one of the worst and longest human rights violations since world war 2.

Nah....residential schools in the US and Canada were far "worst and longer".

[DogOnPorch]

bob and the rest of the zionist propagandists will continue to play the victim card with the bs cries (want to push us into the sea, leftwing/anti-semite media, etc. etc.) while in reality, all they want to do is for people to accept one of the worst and longest human rights violations since world war 2.

Whenever I hear the word 'Zionist' used by someone like you it screams Jew-baiter.

[Jack Weber]

Whenever I hear the word 'Zionist' used by someone like you it screams Jew-baiter.

Or cryptically an Islamofascist aparatchik...

[DogOnPorch]

Or cryptically an Islamofascist aparatchik...

They often go hand in hand with the Julius Streicher's of the planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_St%C3%BCrmer