Why Do Poland & Russia Not Have to Give Back Territory...

[DogOnPorch]

So you do know that using your own arbitrary start point in history is a mug's game.

Good, just checking.

I can go back as far as it is recorded if you like. The planet's first recorded battle: Battle of Megiddo...guess where....

[Bob]

So what does Sir Bandelot's position boil down to?

He's equating this:

German invasion of Poland.

With this:

Zionist pioneers fleeing the Holocaust.

After all, the early Jewish immigration that precipitated the reestablishment of Israel was somehow akin to a military invasion, such as when Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Bob

[DogOnPorch]

So what does Sir Bandelot's position boil down to?

He's equating this:

German invasion of Poland.

With this:

Zionist pioneers fleeing the Holocaust.

After all, the early Jewish immigration that precipitated the reestablishment of Israel was somehow akin to a military invasion, such as when Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

What is never mentioned is that the Mufti had his own version of Zionism going on during the mandate days in efforts to bolster the Arab population in the area. But that just confuses the issue...eh? Arafat, the Mufti's nephew, afterall wasn't born in Cairo...welllllll...let's pretend he wasn't.

[Bob]

What is never mentioned is that the Mufti had his own version of Zionism going on during the mandate days in efforts to bolster the Arab population in the area. But that just confuses the issue...eh? Arafat, the Mufti's nephew, afterall wasn't born in Cairo...welllllll...let's pretend he wasn't.

It's funny how Zionism is decried and labelled as some sort of unnatural foreign invasion, yet Arabism is the natural state of affairs. Arabs belong here, we don't. Apparently we're all from Germany and Poland, and should go back to living under their rule. The anti-Zionists want to condemn us to eternal statelessness and the inevitable victimization that goes along with it.

"Don't worry Jews, we'll be nice to you this time. Trust us. Cross our hearts and hope to die!"

Edited July 4, 2011 by Bob

[Sir Bandelot]

So what does Sir Bandelot's position boil down to?

He's equating this:

German invasion of Poland.

With this:

Zionist pioneers fleeing the Holocaust.

After all, the early Jewish immigration that precipitated the reestablishment of Israel was somehow akin to a military invasion, such as when Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

No I am not. Although, I can't open your second link.

But if I gather what you're saying, I DO NOT equate them. In fact that is the point I made when I stepped into this thread (with rubber boots on, I assure you...) Others are trying to say that they are equivalent. In fact the OP implies this. I said they are not, and I refuted it. I said the blame lies entirely with the west. Proved it even.

Also showed how the attitude that one does not own eternal rights to their ancestral land, as someone else indicated should be fail and square for Poles, Russians, Germans, or Palestinians must then also be right for the Jews. Try that one on your Matzo.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Sir Bandelot

[Bob]

The West hasn't been entirely helpful towards this conflict, especially with America playing both sides of the fence. But it's a mixed bag and a long story I don't really want to into right now. But to suggest that the responsibility for this conflict and its perpetuation isn't primarily on the shoulders of the Arabs and Muslims, as you are blaming the West exclusively for these problems, is absurd. To blame the West for these problems conduct is ridiculous, as if the Arabs and Muslims are non-players and not responsible for their own actions.

It's just hollow anti-Western rhetoric. Not unexpected from you, though.

[Sir Bandelot]

The West hasn't been entirely helpful towards this conflict, especially with America playing both sides of the fence. But it's a mixed bag and a long story I don't really want to into right now. But to suggest that the responsibility for this conflict and its perpetuation isn't primarily on the shoulders of the Arabs and Muslims, as you are blaming the West exclusively for these problems, is absurd. To blame the West for these problems conduct is ridiculous, as if the Arabs and Muslims are non-players and not responsible for their own actions.

It's just hollow anti-Western rhetoric. Not unexpected from you, though.

No, it is not ridiculous. It is a view that can be defended. I know it is a long complex story, one that can entangle us in arguments for years. But you see, there's only a few basic differences in how we see things. I refuse to get into the muck that tries to fix blame on either Jews or Palestinians, as the reason a priori. Palestinians are reactionary. They responded to a perceived invasion of what they considered their territory. Most likely that any nation would respond in a similar manner, under similar circumstances. Can anyone disagree with that? Is there another country that would make room or willing annex part of their land for millions of refugees to take permanent residence? Let alone, the Jews... Jews had no where to go so it is not even a question in my mind. They were refused even in lands where they had lived for generations, for centuries. Places like Romania, Bulgaria, even in Belgium and the Netherlands. After much deliberation in parliament Canada accepted one child refugee, I understand. Just one! And we all know what happened on the S.S. St Louis.

Simon Weisenthal org still has a lot of work to do Bob, why are you wasting time bothering us here? The real criminals are the ones who are vetted by the establishment.

It is not an anti-establishment rant, it is based on historical fact. Shame on you for implying it were not the case! If you don't know about history, why do you come here?

[Peter F]

Treaty between the Federal Republic of Germany and the Republic of Poland on the confirmation of the frontier between them, 14 November 1990

Thats why.

[DogOnPorch]

That's it?

[jbg]

Treaty between the Federal Republic of Germany and the Republic of Poland on the confirmation of the frontier between them, 14 November 1990

Thats why.

So prior to that Germans exiled from Poland were being kept in refugee camps, periodically sent to quixotic wars to reclaim East Prussia, and sent out to suicide bomb Polish and Russian interests. Oh I get it now.

[GostHacked]

The West hasn't been entirely helpful towards this conflict, especially with America playing both sides of the fence. But it's a mixed bag and a long story I don't really want to into right now. But to suggest that the responsibility for this conflict and its perpetuation isn't primarily on the shoulders of the Arabs and Muslims, as you are blaming the West exclusively for these problems, is absurd. To blame the West for these problems conduct is ridiculous, as if the Arabs and Muslims are non-players and not responsible for their own actions.

It's just hollow anti-Western rhetoric. Not unexpected from you, though.

Don't blame the west, but blame the west because they play both sides in the conflict. Ok.

[Oleg Bach]

Yeah...the first pogroms occured in 1920...right after Husseini was made Grand Mufti. If your history starts in 1948, the Mufti's men were the first into the fight even before their Arab allies showed-up from all sides.

Educated....good.

[eyeball]

The West hasn't been entirely helpful towards this conflict, especially with America playing both sides of the fence.

Wow. Who would have thought you were such an anti-American terrorist-loving scumbag?

[M.Dancer]

There are some fundamental differences. Palestinians did not invade Israel, or start a major war. In fact it would be more fair to say that the Palestinians are more comparable to the Poles. They were generally minding their own business and next thing you know, their land was taken away from them.

Some palestinians did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_War_Army

[M.Dancer]

Yup...now what's the point of this History 101 statement?

That his history is eurocentric...forgetting the assyrians, persians et al....

[Oleg Bach]

Wow. Who would have thought you were such an anti-American terrorist-loving scumbag?

Millons of dollars from AMERICA and Bob is looking for a way not to be beholding or honouring the debt. With out America Israel would not exist in it's present semi-secure state..talk about not being thankful for mercy. It reminds me of the time my brother and I were in litigation with a Jewish agencey that hyjacked his Orthodox - Catholic infants....It really pissed me off when their legal team describe my family as "nominal Christians" as if they were expert in that area...point being that my father during the German occupation of Paris - destroyed a group of high ranking German officers at their command head quarters...and in doing so saved lives - Jews included - YET the grand children of jewish "survivors" took it upon themselves to disrespect us....They say never forget - apparently they have forgotten who their friend are.

[Saipan]

With out America Israel would not exist in it's present semi-secure state..

Neither would MANY countries.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Saipan

[DogOnPorch]

Some palestinians did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_War_Army

Another of the Mufti's many nephews. Sir B is living in La-La Land where the Mufti and crew simply didn't exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Qadir_al-Husayni

Edited July 4, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Sir Bandelot]

Sir B is living in La-La Land where the Mufti and crew simply didn't exist.

No problem Dog. I've got my boots on.

[DogOnPorch]

No problem Dog. I've got my boots on.

Hey, you're the BS revisionist attempting to re-write history.

Sir BS: There are some fundamental differences. Palestinians did not invade Israel, or start a major war. In fact it would be more fair to say that the Palestinians are more comparable to the Poles. They were generally minding their own business and next thing you know, their land was taken away from them.

Link

That's you claiming the Arabs did no wrong....minding their own business.

[WIP]

So Germans moved on with their lives and within a few decades were prospering again, like rational people should. Meanwhile, the Palestinians refused to do so, behaving like immature idiots, and as a result continue to live in poor conditions to this day. And for this they should be rewarded?

Let's stop and consider that the Germans who remained in Germany did not "move on." They allowed ramped up nationalism, notions of racial and cultural superiority, and desire for empire to give rise to Hitler and WWII.

In all of your posts about Muslims, Palestinians or other Arabs, I don't see any consideration for basic human dignity -- you consider these people ignorant, violent, stupid and generally subhuman, and that's the first step to justifying any and all violence against them. It's okay to kill them and destroy their health through a continued blockade of a million and a half Gazans; while any attempts to break through what is fundamentally an illegal blockade are met with violence, more threats of violence, death, and excuses for causing death! If you don't consider them human, they just deserve it anyway, is the rationale here.

Manifest destiny was itself also a secular construct.

I'll pull this from the snapshot definition in wikipedia by historian William E. Weeks

three key themes were usually touched upon by advocates of Manifest Destiny:

the virtue of the American people and their institutions;

the mission to spread these institutions, thereby redeeming and remaking the world in the image of the U.S.; and

the destiny under God to do this work.[15]

Sounds like little more than a mix of religion and racism to start with, and it's at the heart of the Afrikaanders founding myth, and the story of the Conquest of Canaan in the Old Testament....we're better than they are, and God told us to kill them and take the land etc.

Anyway, Israel seems content to retain the territory it presently controls, and even give away some of it in a future deal with the Palestinians when they gain some credibility, hence the analogy fails.

What are they going to do about all of the private roads and settlements dotting the West Bank? If those settlements which keep getting expanded, stay there, there is no serious effort allowing self-government on the West Bank. What's there today is a bunch of isolated little Palestinian Bantustans.

Unoccupied territory eh? Where? On Mars? Or perhaps in Antarctica?

Well, it wasn't exactly unoccupied, but awhile back there were stories of Zionist leaders being offered territory in Uganda by the British. Perhaps the British thought it would be better to displace that population since Lord Balfour screwed up Palestine by promising it to both the Arabs and the Jews.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Well, it wasn't exactly unoccupied, but awhile back there were stories of Zionist leaders being offered territory in Uganda by the British. Perhaps the British thought it would be better to displace that population since Lord Balfour screwed up Palestine by promising it to both the Arabs and the Jews.

..or "aboriginals" and Canadians. The British Empire is the gift that keeps on giving!

[Sir Bandelot]

Hey, you're the BS revisionist attempting to re-write history.

That's you claiming the Arabs did no wrong....minding their own business.

Sorry but you can't read, and I don't talk to clowns.

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry but you can't read, and I don't talk to clowns.

How do you handle mirrors?

So, you didn't write what you wrote...interesting.

Sir BS: There are some fundamental differences. Palestinians did not invade Israel, or start a major war. In fact it would be more fair to say that the Palestinians are more comparable to the Poles. They were generally minding their own business and next thing you know, their land was taken away from them.

Edited July 5, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Bonam]

Let's stop and consider that the Germans who remained in Germany did not "move on." They allowed ramped up nationalism, notions of racial and cultural superiority, and desire for empire to give rise to Hitler and WWII.

In case you missed it, the reference was to after WWII, not the intrawar period.

In all of your posts about Muslims, Palestinians or other Arabs, I don't see any consideration for basic human dignity -- you consider these people ignorant, violent, stupid and generally subhuman, and that's the first step to justifying any and all violence against them.

You have me confused with someone else. Nowhere have I portrayed them, or any other group, as "subhuman". Certainly, many of the actions that the Palestinians have collectively taken have been stupid and violent, but that does not make them "subhuman".

It's okay to kill them and destroy their health through a continued blockade of a million and a half Gazans; while any attempts to break through what is fundamentally an illegal blockade are met with violence, more threats of violence, death, and excuses for causing death!

Err, it's perfectly reasonable to blockade a territory into which people are constantly smuggling in weapons and launching them against you. No nation should be expected to sit idly by while rockets are amassed and fired at its people.

I'll pull this from the snapshot definition in wikipedia by historian William E. Weeks

three key themes were usually touched upon by advocates of Manifest Destiny:

the virtue of the American people and their institutions;

the mission to spread these institutions, thereby redeeming and remaking the world in the image of the U.S.; and

the destiny under God to do this work.[15]

All not much unlike today's US conviction to "spread democracy". That too is a secular construct.

What are they going to do about all of the private roads and settlements dotting the West Bank? If those settlements which keep getting expanded, stay there, there is no serious effort allowing self-government on the West Bank. What's there today is a bunch of isolated little Palestinian Bantustans.

So long as the territory remains unclaimed by any other sovereign state (a sovereign state of Palestine does not yet exist and Jordan has relinquished its claims to the West Bank), what else would you expect?

Well, it wasn't exactly unoccupied, but awhile back there were stories of Zionist leaders being offered territory in Uganda by the British. Perhaps the British thought it would be better to displace that population since Lord Balfour screwed up Palestine by promising it to both the Arabs and the Jews.

Yeah, evil Jews displacing and oppressing poor black Africans. That would have flown so much better than evil Jews displacing and oppressing poor Palestinian Arabs. Not. There is no unclaimed hospitable land left on Earth. I mean, I'd be fine with colonizing Antarctica, but somehow I don't think too many Jews would have been drawn to immigrate to a New Jerusalem built on the south pole.