Bonam Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Thats the thing. Congestion is actually a good problem to have. All those people zooming around on the roads are on their way to purchase some things, or perform a service, and many of them are moving goods from one place to another to facilitate transactions between entities and individuals. This is why we have an economy. The government collects taxes from all this economic activity so really good infrasctructre development not only pays for itself but should increase revenue over time. That doesnt mean all infrasture projects make sense of course. Building a bridge to nowhere doesnt do anything for anyone. Well, it's a good problem to have as opposed to the alternative: abandoned empty streets, certainly. But it's still a problem and taking measures to ameliorate it should be a priority. Congestion implies that roads are stuffed beyond capacity, that means things are moving less quickly than they could be. People sitting in traffic for hours are people not engaging in meaningful economic activity. Not to mention the environmental impact. Reducing congestion by building more roads allows people to "zoom" faster, contributing more to the economy. I agree with you that infrastructure spending should be one of the top priorities of government. Edited July 4, 2011 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 The typical design of the western super highway system always lacked vision. Most of our roads are obsolete only after a few years of their building. As I witness grid lock and think of the billions of litres of wasted fuel it irks me to no end that no one is taking this problem seriously. The waste of energy brings about a stronger and more powerful form of addiction..with that more international conflict - that is based on bad vision. For instance our insurance industry seems to have created a morbid fear in the population that are involved in a fender bender - There seems to be some sacred rule that nothing is supposed to be moved or altered at what is treated like a major crime scene...one vehicle with some smashed plastic bumper should not cause the waste of ten thousand litres of fuel by backing up traffic- our laws in these regards are stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Well, it's a good problem to have as opposed to the alternative: abandoned empty streets, certainly. But it's still a problem and taking measures to ameliorate it should be a priority. Congestion implies that roads are stuffed beyond capacity, that means things are moving less quickly than they could be. People sitting in traffic for hours are people not engaging in meaningful economic activity. For the oil companies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 I guess it is a positive sign that on a Saturday after gas prices hit $1.35 or more a litre you can still go out to a mall or a hardware store or Wal-mart and still see the place packed with cars. It's evidence that our economy isn't totally in the shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 You know the perfect solution for you people? A GPS on everyone's car that tolled people no matter where they went. The insurance industry is way ahead on this already, but they are having some backlash getting it out to consumers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) No Shit Edited July 5, 2011 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 You do pay: for the car itself, for insurance and registration, for parking, for fuel, for maintenance. When I see this argument am I reminded of the Simpsons episode when the people of Springfield demand the city do something about bears encroaching on the town. When the city responds by forming an elaborate and expensive "Bear Patrol" the people balk at the costs. Homer: Woo-hoo! A perfect day. Zero bears and one big fat hairy paycheck. [opens it up] Hey! How come my pay is so low? ... Bear patrol tax! This is an outrage! It's the biggest tax increase in history! Lisa: Actually, Dad, it's the smallest tax increase in history. Homer: Let the bears pay the bear tax. I pay the Homer tax. Lisa: That's home-owner tax. Homer: Well, anyway, I'm still outraged. The majority of the costs associated with car ownership have nowt to do with maintaining the infrastructure upon which car use depends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 When I see this argument am I reminded of the Simpsons episode when the people of Springfield demand the city do something about bears encroaching on the town. When the city responds by forming an elaborate and expensive "Bear Patrol" the people balk at the costs. The majority of the costs associated with car ownership have nowt to do with maintaining the infrastructure upon which car use depends. Sure buddy. BTW I heard on the radio this morning that TTC fares may go up. Sadly I'm sure the increase won't go to helping reduce congestion. It'll just go to the TTC's bloated workforce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Sure buddy. BTW I heard on the radio this morning that TTC fares may go up. Sadly I'm sure the increase won't go to helping reduce congestion. It'll just go to the TTC's bloated workforce. Why would TTC fares be used to combat congestion anyway? Transit fares should be used for the upkeep of the system. Which incidentally is the same principle behind road pricing/tolls. You whine and bitch about subsidizing transit when you don't even pay for your own roads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Why would TTC fares be used to combat congestion anyway? Transit fares should be used for the upkeep of the system. Which incidentally is the same principle behind road pricing/tolls. You whine and bitch about subsidizing transit when you don't even pay for your own roads. Buses and street cars don't use the same roads as cars? BTW in Halton I've noticed some great improvements in vital arteries. Those were paid for by the property owners. Now I hear peeble in Toronto bitch and moan that much of the congestion caused in Toronto are by commuters. And how they don't contribute to tax base. Which is totally ridiculous. What would happen to Toronto of those businesses that employed those workers that drive in daily if those businesses left because people didn't want to pay a road toll to get into the city? If you look at the growth of commercial business in Mississauga you'd see that Toronto isn't all that and employers have options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Buses and street cars don't use the same roads as cars? Relevance? BTW in Halton I've noticed some great improvements in vital arteries. Those were paid for by the property owners. Again: we're not talking about Halton. Now I hear peeble in Toronto bitch and moan that much of the congestion caused in Toronto are by commuters. And how they don't contribute to tax base. Which is totally ridiculous. What would happen to Toronto of those businesses that employed those workers that drive in daily if those businesses left because people didn't want to pay a road toll to get into the city? If you look at the growth of commercial business in Mississauga you'd see that Toronto isn't all that and employers have options. Because it makes perfect sense for a business to move in order to spare its employees from having to pay road tolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 You know what? I can't get worked up about this issue anymore. It doesn't effect me, and if I didn't end up working in TO for some 9-5 gig, I'd probably use GO. But I think this issue of tolls will just end up being some pointy headed civics debate because there is no way Rob Ford would allow it. And unless Daddy Dalton gets a resounding mandate in October there is no way a provincial government would see fit to add another burden on taxpayers from a provincial level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Relevance? You really don't see the relevance of that? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleClassCentrist Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 According to a report from the Toronto Board of Trade, gridlock is one of the biggest barriers to the continued economic prosperity of the GTA. Currently gridlock costs about $6 billion a year and that number is expected to rise. The Board recommends exploring a range of options for financing infrastructure, including parking levies and road tolls. I'd suggest a combination: dedicated gas taxes, congestion charges, toll roads, and/or road pricing. It's time to stop the free ride motorists have been getting on the backs of teh gerneal population for the last four decades. The reality is that we'd need an NDP government that will actually invest in infrastructure and not toll highways to solve this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 The reality is that we'd need an NDP government that will actually invest in infrastructure and not toll highways to solve this problem. Except where do you get the money to invest in infrastructure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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