Highways to hell

[Black Dog]

Yeah it's irrelevant to me, I try to go into Toronto as few times as possible.

But I still can have an opinion.

People are going to have to drive downtown regardless of a tax. Not everyone can simply use the GO-Train.

Then they should pay for it.

Also what about the people that may live in Toronto and work in say Mississauga?

Mississauga isn't just some bedroom burb there are many head offices there too.

I actually think the traffic in places like Mississauga and Oakville are actually worse than they can be in Toronto.

For a area as large and populous as the GTA, a road pricing model where people are charged based on their use of the roads would be the best way to ensure everyone is paying their share.

[Topaz]

From an outsiders view, since I don't live in the GTO, the main problem is too many people working the same time. It must be heaven for the people that work the midnight shift, so would or could companies shift their workers hours from 7pm to 5am or there about?

[Boges]

Then they should pay for it.

For a area as large and populous as the GTA, a road pricing model where people are charged based on their use of the roads would be the best way to ensure everyone is paying their share.

Above and beyond the multitude of taxes they pay for the "privilege" of owning a car.

While people who take the TTC have their fares subsidised.

It's absolutely fair!

[Black Dog]

Above and beyond the multitude of taxes they pay for the "privilege" of owning a car.

Since the multitude of taxes they pay still do not reflect the true cost of car ownership and infrastructure requirements, yes.

While people who take the TTC have their fares subsidised.

The TTC is the least-subsidized major transit authority in North America: 70 per cent of its operating costs are paid by users.

It's absolutely fair!

Fair ain't got nothing to do with it.

[Michael Hardner]

Yeah because that's so practical.

Well, you're describing a lot of problems with your own way of life (i.e. living far away from work) and don't seem to have any good answers so how practical is THAT ?

[Boges]

Well, you're describing a lot of problems with your own way of life (i.e. living far away from work) and don't seem to have any good answers so how practical is THAT ?

I ain't complaining with the status quo. Even if Gas goes up to $1.50/litre it's still cheaper than taking public transit.

But now gumints may want to charge people who are just trying to make a living more because they can't keep their books straight. I have problems with that.

BTW I was just highlighting the problems with the argument of "Live where you work" Even if that's your goal, and I admit living where you work owns. Sometimes live doesn't work that way.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

But now gumints may want to charge people who are just trying to make a living more because they can't keep their books straight. I have problems with that.

Sure enough. They're much like everybody else in that regard - keeping in mind that gas, transit are complex give/take transactions where the government gives some $ and takes some $. So complicated that it makes one pine for that sublime simplicity that is libertarianism.

[Black Dog]

I ain't complaining with the status quo. Even if Gas goes up to $1.50/litre it's still cheaper than taking public transit.

But now gumints may want to charge people who are just trying to make a living more because they can't keep their books straight. I have problems with that.

BTW I was just highlighting the problems with the argument of "Live where you work" Even if that's your goal, and I admit living where you work owns. Sometimes live doesn't work that way.

Yeah that's just bullshit. It's less to do with government's inability to keep their books straight as it is with the simple realities of decades of poor planning and policy colliding with a growing population and an aging infrastructure.

[guyser]

Even if Gas goes up to $1.50/litre it's still cheaper than taking public transit.

What?

You can drive a car daily for $121 a month? Gas, oil, depreciation, wear and tear,cost of lease/bank payment,interest,upkeep all for $121.

Sounds good, where can I sign up?

[Michael Hardner]

Yeah that's just bullshit. It's less to do with government's inability to keep their books straight as it is with the simple realities of decades of poor planning and policy colliding with a growing population and an aging infrastructure.

What's the difference between poor planning and not keeping your books straight ? I see them as the same thing. We've been on autopilot when it comes to intelligent thinking - relying on other people to work out the details for us. This has been a big mistake.

[Black Dog]

What's the difference between poor planning and not keeping your books straight ? I see them as the same thing. We've been on autopilot when it comes to intelligent thinking - relying on other people to work out the details for us. This has been a big mistake.

When I see "not keeping the books straight", I think of Rob Ford's "we don't have a revenue problem we have a spending problem": the idea that there's plenty of money out there but it's all being wasted by unions and shit. Poor planning is another matter: I'm talking about land use policies, deferring infrastructure improvements and avoiding making unpopular but necessary choices.

[Boges]

Yeah that's just bullshit. It's less to do with government's inability to keep their books straight as it is with the simple realities of decades of poor planning and policy colliding with a growing population and an aging infrastructure.

Here's a perfect example of poor planning and idiocy from our government.

In many parts of the GTA's busiest HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle) lanes were built by the province. Carpool lanes.

If you're driving to work from one town to another what are the odds that you can find someone that works in the same town as you, works in the same area of you and works the same hours as you?

Sure there are carpooling website but I'd imagine the aggravation of finding someone to carpool with isn't worth the effort.

So during rush hour these HOV lanes are freakin' empty!

If Tim Hudak said he'd free HOV lanes up for everyone. He'd get every single riding in Halton, Peel and York. He'll probably get all of them anyway though :-/

[Boges]

What?

You can drive a car daily for $121 a month? Gas, oil, depreciation, wear and tear,cost of lease/bank payment,interest,upkeep all for $121.

Sounds good, where can I sign up?

That's assuming you live and work in Toronto.

I costed it out for my 30 minute commute if I wanted to take public transit. I'd have to use both local transits and the GO Train. unless of course I wanted to also walk up to an hour each day as well.

I'd also ad more than an hour to my day commuting. So no gym and the end the day, no eating dinner with my wife. I'd be getting home at 9pm every night since I'd leave work at 7pm.

And on the weekend I wouldn't have the freedom to see my parents, friends, to go to Niagara Falls if I want to. Stuff like that.

BTW I believe it's totally reasonable to expect someone going to Downtown Toronto to use public transit. But this region is far more than Toronto.

[M.Dancer]

BTW I believe it's totally reasonable to expect someone going to Downtown Toronto to use public transit. But this region is far more than Toronto.

But we are talking about Toronto, not Uxbridge or Milton.

[Bonam]

What?

You can drive a car daily for $121 a month? Gas, oil, depreciation, wear and tear,cost of lease/bank payment,interest,upkeep all for $121.

Sounds good, where can I sign up?

Time is worth money. Using public transit generally requires more time than driving your car. In cases where you live relatively far from work and not on a direct rapid transit route, it can mean hours more every day. If I, for example, valued my time at my hourly wage, an extra hour every day of commuting would be an extra $1000-1200 a month, far more than the costs you mentioned.

Anyway, the solution to congestion is simple, beef up the roads. Add more lanes, add more highways and freeways, add more left turn bays on streets, add more overpasses and underpasses at congested intersections, add more parking (stats show that the majority of traffic in congested downtown areas is caused by people circling around looking for a spot to park), etc.

How to pay for it? PPPs, with the private companies being allowed to charge tolls on the new infrastructure until the investment cost + some predefined amount of profit has been reclaimed, after which the tolls must be repealed. The tolls would only be on new infrastructure, after it is completed.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Bonam

[Shwa]

Then what does income taxes, the heath tax and the HST pay for?

I thought those taxes were used for roads and highways, public service pensions and the HST is paying for the have-not provinces. I am not 100 sure of that though, so don't quote me.

[Boges]

But we are talking about Toronto, not Uxbridge or Milton.

Sure but I do think a toll road is punitive to other people. People who drive for a living, couriers, truck drivers.

I also think a road toll unless it was only used during rush hours would hurt Toronto because people would avoid the city unless they had to go there.

GO is expensive. It's cost effective for me to use GO if I was going downtown alone. BUT if I'm bringing my wife or a friend downtown the car becomes the far better method of commuting.

[Shwa]

Do you also have a car to drive you to the station and do all the other things I'm sure you'd like to do living there?

Ironic is someone in the Shwa doesn't have a car actually considering the #1 industry there.

It's not ironic if no one cares.

However, Oshawa & Durham Region at large is changing and amalgamated public transportation is one of those changes. So why bother with the 401 traffic, the DVP morning nightmare, etc. when there is a easy ride to be had on the GO & Rocket? And a heck of a lot cheaper too.

[guyser]

Add more lanes, add more highways and freeways, add more left turn bays on streets, add more overpasses and underpasses at congested intersections, add more parking (stats show that the majority of traffic in congested downtown areas is caused by people circling around looking for a spot to park), etc.

All well and fine, for Mississauga, but Toronto's streets are very to "not in hell" able to create more space.

The roads and system is more than 100 yrs old.

Aint no room.

However, had the original vision of the city panned out, we would be in somewhat better condition for infrastructure but ol' Bill Davis nixed one part, city councillors another.

SPadina Exp would have helped immensely taking pressure off of Gardiner, 427

Hwy #2 would have run from the part pf the Gardiner that was cut off, out through Kingston road and join up somewhere east of Scarbrough to the 401. Makes the DVP for city centre and 905 people...and that equals a lot less cars on it.

Edited June 29, 2011 by guyser

[Boges]

Oh and regarding Toronto, replacing a lane on Jarvis and putting in a little used bike lane certainly didn't help the congestion problem did it?

[M.Dancer]

Sure but I do think a toll road is punitive to other people. People who drive for a living, couriers, truck drivers.

Truck are the major destroyer of roads. They are the first who should pay for them

I also think a road toll unless it was only used during rush hours would hurt Toronto because people would avoid the city unless they had to go there.

Time based usage fees are a good idea

GO is expensive. It's cost effective for me to use GO if I was going downtown alone. BUT if I'm bringing my wife or a friend downtown the car becomes the far better method of commuting.

Then use the car pool lane and pay the toll.

[M.Dancer]

Oh and regarding Toronto, replacing a lane on Jarvis and putting in a little used bike lane certainly didn't help the congestion problem did it?

little used?

[Boges]

little used?

My bad, I've never seen it, I've only heard from radio hosts with an agenda.

But even it it was full of people on their bikes, there are other places to put bike lanes than on major arteries.

[Boges]

Then use the car pool lane and pay the toll.

Or how about I just don't go to Toronto unless I somehow get Leafs tickets.

Oh and the Gardiner doesn't have any Carpool lanes. If they built them there, then maybe you'd have a tangible way of dealing with the congestion.

But you have a mayor like the last one that actually wanted to rip the Gardiner down.

Left wing politicians don't want to reduce congestion, they want to make driving so unpleasant that you'd do anything to avoid driving downtown. Even use their crappy TTC and GO.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Anyway, the solution to congestion is simple, beef up the roads. Add more lanes, add more highways and freeways, add more left turn bays on streets, add more overpasses and underpasses at congested intersections, add more parking (stats show that the majority of traffic in congested downtown areas is caused by people circling around looking for a spot to park), etc.

Yeah and an abundance of road ways is why L.A. is well known for its fast, hassle-free commutes.

It's a planning truism that increasing capacity doesn't decrease congestion. It just gets more people driving, leading to more congestion.