Ron Paulstradamus

[bush_cheney2004]

Means testing would address some of that problem, yes. The fund got raided in the past, and that's another problem.

And just how far do you think such a means testing plan would get? The only way to backdoor such a scheme would be through the tax code or COLA reduction, as a direct reduction of benefits is politically impossible. Social security is called the third rail of politics for a reason....seniors are well organized and they vote.

[Michael Hardner]

Awesome stuff is it not? Two bailouts, eventually payed back by the taxpayer. Which means higher prices and less services for all, and when that money train runs out, they will go after the savings and retirement funds...

All of this could be adjusted, although the changes would be highly unpopular.

Greece is selling off most of it's infrastructure and in the end will have to enact austerity measures in order to balance the books (if they can ever be balanced). The Greeks will never ever be able to pay these debts off. This is the same for many countries. But in the end who are all these nations paying? International banks?

Bondholders. A little defaulting may clear the air, there. Everybody should share the pain, right ?

[GostHacked]

All of this could be adjusted, although the changes would be highly unpopular.

Doing the right thing sometimes means it's not the popular thing.

Bondholders. A little defaulting may clear the air, there. Everybody should share the pain, right ?

Everyone is already sharing the pain and the burden of failed economic practices (mostly by the banks and other financial institutions). Why should taxpayers be on the hook for entities like Goldman Sachs and GM? Why does the collective get punished for a few corporations doing all the dirty deeds? They don't need a bailout, they need internal restructuring. Let the market correct itself. Too big to fail? What if the outcome is that those entities will fail anyways regardless of 3 bailouts in as many years? Delaying the inevitable? It will hurt now, or hurt A LOT later.

When an individual defaults, they get the boots put to them, their assets taken away in order to pay off the debts. When something like GM or Goldman Sachs defaults, they get a bail out by the Fed, which taxpayers are on the hook for? Is that fair? If it's not fair, then why is it happening? Why continue the bad practices?

[dre]

Doing the right thing sometimes means it's not the popular thing.

Everyone is already sharing the pain and the burden of failed economic practices (mostly by the banks and other financial institutions). Why should taxpayers be on the hook for entities like Goldman Sachs and GM? Why does the collective get punished for a few corporations doing all the dirty deeds? They don't need a bailout, they need internal restructuring. Let the market correct itself. Too big to fail? What if the outcome is that those entities will fail anyways regardless of 3 bailouts in as many years? Delaying the inevitable? It will hurt now, or hurt A LOT later.

When an individual defaults, they get the boots put to them, their assets taken away in order to pay off the debts. When something like GM or Goldman Sachs defaults, they get a bail out by the Fed, which taxpayers are on the hook for? Is that fair? If it's not fair, then why is it happening? Why continue the bad practices?

Taxpayers are on the hook because they were stupid enough to allow people from these institutions to infiltrate their government both by being active members of it, and through influence peddling.

Turns out stupid things happen to stupid people!

[GostHacked]

Taxpayers are on the hook because they were stupid enough to allow people from these institutions to infiltrate their government both by being active members of it, and through influence peddling.

Turns out stupid things happen to stupid people!

I am not buying that. It was politicians being lobbied by these financial entities to change regulations in order to do the damage that has been done to the economy. The average American can take some responsibility, but it really lies with the financial institutions who sold them bad mortgages and tried to hedge their loses by selling those mortgages to other institutions through derivatives.

Taxpayers have less and less say in how their government operates, that's been the trend for some time. And less and less is what the taxpayer gets. The government along with these banks, and the media tell the population how and what to think, the economy is fine, they say, bail outs are good they say, austerity is good they say.

Are you buying that? The people are not stupid, ignorant maybe, but not stupid.

[dre]

I am not buying that. It was politicians being lobbied by these financial entities to change regulations in order to do the damage that has been done to the economy. The average American can take some responsibility, but it really lies with the financial institutions who sold them bad mortgages and tried to hedge their loses by selling those mortgages to other institutions through derivatives.

Taxpayers have less and less say in how their government operates, that's been the trend for some time. And less and less is what the taxpayer gets. The government along with these banks, and the media tell the population how and what to think, the economy is fine, they say, bail outs are good they say, austerity is good they say.

Are you buying that? The people are not stupid, ignorant maybe, but not stupid.

Taxpayers have less and less say in how their government operates, that's been the trend for some time. And less and less is what the taxpayer gets.

That was exactly my point. It doesnt seem real bright of us to allow this to happen.

but it really lies with the financial institutions who sold them bad mortgages and tried to hedge their loses by selling those mortgages to other institutions through derivatives

Im talking about the bailouts though. IMO those happened in part because that relationship is too cozy.

[GostHacked]

That was exactly my point. It doesnt seem real bright of us to allow this to happen.

We've been swindled indeed.

Im talking about the bailouts though. IMO those happened in part because that relationship is too cozy.

Well, can't argue with you on that point.

[maple_leafs182]

Yes, and at this rate, I hope I get "screwed over" even more. I have been very successful in the current system, not any viable alternative you have yet to describe.

You have to legalize competing currencies and let the market choose what money is. The banks should never control the money supply.

Really? My cost of living is going down and my savings are going up. Perhaps you have yet to overcome the debt curve.

I don't know your personal finances but not everyone is as fortunate as you.

You will see the dollar collapse at some point in your life time.

[bush_cheney2004]

You have to legalize competing currencies and let the market choose what money is. The banks should never control the money supply.

Don't confuse money with currency...they are two different things.

I don't know your personal finances but not everyone is as fortunate as you.

Correct...so why would I favor giving up such an advantage...just to be a nice guy?

You will see the dollar collapse at some point in your life time.

The US dollar has already been devalued during my lifetime. Life is still good!

[maple_leafs182]

Don't confuse money with currency...they are two different things.

Currency is money. However, I should have worded that sentence better.

But legalize competition in the currency market and let the people choose what they want to use. I can guarantee people will start moving towards gold or silver backed currencies, something less inflationary then the Dollar.

Correct...so why would I favor giving up such an advantage...just to be a nice guy?

I don't think it gives you an advantage. I think there is a lot to gain from living in a society that has a larger middle class. I also think that eliminating the power the Fed holds over your economy is necessary to allow the free market to flourish.

The US dollar has already been devalued during my lifetime. Life is still good!

Ya, for the time being. The IMF just downgraded its forecast for America's economic growth...you will see soon enough what people like Ron Paul and others on this bored have been trying to warn you about.

[bush_cheney2004]

Currency is money. However, I should have worded that sentence better.

You're almost there...let's be more precise and clearly state that money is an economic abstraction that can be represented by currency (and many other things). However, some currency is worthless.

But legalize competition in the currency market and let the people choose what they want to use. I can guarantee people will start moving towards gold or silver backed currencies, something less inflationary then the Dollar.

Some will, most won't. Currency need only competently represent money, and the more convenient form of money will win the day over precious metals backed certificates or notes.

I don't think it gives you an advantage. I think there is a lot to gain from living in a society that has a larger middle class. I also think that eliminating the power the Fed holds over your economy is necessary to allow the free market to flourish.

The problem with this approach is that you are elevating the US economy over your own or others either way. What you may see as a gain for another "society" is purely academic when the actual individuals of that society act otherwise.

Ya, for the time being. The IMF just downgraded its forecast for America's economic growth...you will see soon enough what people like Ron Paul and others on this bored have been trying to warn you about.

They (you) have warned me of nothing. I am of the opinion that most younger people today have never known true scarcity and deprivation, so any possibility of a "downgrade" scares them to death. Ron Paul is a caricature for their fears of having...less.

[Bonam]

They (you) have warned me of nothing. I am of the opinion that most younger people today have never known true scarcity and deprivation, so any possibility of a "downgrade" scares them to death. Ron Paul is a caricature for their fears of having...less.

Some of us came from hellholes like the former Soviet Union. Trust me, no shortage of scarcity and deprivation in late 80s Russia.

[bush_cheney2004]

Some of us came from hellholes like the former Soviet Union. Trust me, no shortage of scarcity and deprivation in late 80s Russia.

That was by design....it was with calculated purpose to keep the FSU in such a state during the 70's and 80's. My favorite American propaganda from the era depicts people in long lines behind nearly empty meat cases in Moscow.

[maple_leafs182]

You're almost there...let's be more precise and clearly state that money is an economic abstraction that can be represented by currency (and many other things). However, some currency is worthless.

I agree with you there.

Some will, most won't. Currency need only competently represent money, and the more convenient form of money will win the day over precious metals backed certificates or notes.

Yes, some will some won't, at least you will have the freedom to choose. I also think you will be able to digitally trade medal backed certificates just as easily as we do with our current fiat currencies now.

The problem with this approach is that you are elevating the US economy over your own or others either way. What you may see as a gain for another "society" is purely academic when the actual individuals of that society act otherwise.

I am not trying to elevate the US economy over any other economy and how will they act?

They (you) have warned me of nothing. I am of the opinion that most younger people today have never known true scarcity and deprivation, so any possibility of a "downgrade" scares them to death. Ron Paul is a caricature for their fears of having...less.

It has nothing to do with a fear of having less. I don't like the idea of having a centrally planed economy. I don't like how the system is designed to favour big banks and big corporations.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, some will some won't, at least you will have the freedom to choose. I also think you will be able to digitally trade medal backed certificates just as easily as we do with our current fiat currencies now.

Metal is openly traded in many forms already....step up to the plate if that be your desire. How's that silver thing working out? The surviving Hunt Brothers want to know.

I am not trying to elevate the US economy over any other economy and how will they act?

The American economy does not operate in a vacuum....focusing only on The Fed over other central banks is folly. You better have a better plan than just hoping for the Americans to figure things out.

It has nothing to do with a fear of having less. I don't like the idea of having a centrally planed economy. I don't like how the system is designed to favour big banks and big corporations.

But you still choose to participate directly and indirectly, to the point of perhaps moving to North Dakota, USA?

Edited June 23, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Bonam]

That was by design....it was with calculated purpose to keep the FSU in such a state during the 70's and 80's. My favorite American propaganda from the era depicts people in long lines behind nearly empty meat cases in Moscow.

Wasn't really propaganda, considering that was pretty much an accurate picture. Anyway, my parents were smart enough to get the heck out of there soon as they had a chance. As for by design, the Soviet Union was what it was by virtue of the brutal and inhuman philosophy of communism upon which it was based. American designs may have thankfully hastened its end, but that end was inevitable with or without them.

[bush_cheney2004]

Wasn't really propaganda, considering that was pretty much an accurate picture.

The best propaganda works exactly that way. Of course, meats and other products were available on the black market.

Anyway, my parents were smart enough to get the heck out of there soon as they had a chance. As for by design, the Soviet Union was what it was by virtue of the brutal and inhuman philosophy of communism upon which it was based. American designs may have thankfully hastened its end, but that end was inevitable with or without them.

True, but it was a poor execution of communism (i.e Leninism & Stalinism)...the Chinese were better at it. Agreed, 'twas not the Americans that ultimately killed the beast.

[Pliny]

True, but it was a poor execution of communism (i.e Leninism & Stalinism)...the Chinese were better at it.

I worry about you sometimes, BC! None of them work without a monopoly on gun ownership.

[maple_leafs182]

Metal is openly traded in many forms already....step up to the plate if that be your desire. How's that silver thing working out? The surviving Hunt Brothers want to know.

Silver and gold are taxed in many states.

I think silver will fall down to the high 20's but I am not a very good short term trader, I see long term trends which I believe is up.

The American economy does not operate in a vacuum....focusing only on The Fed over other central banks is folly. You better have a better plan than just hoping for the Americans to figure things out.

America is the only country I know of that has politicians calling for an end to their central bank.

[Bonam]

True, but it was a poor execution of communism (i.e Leninism & Stalinism)...the Chinese were better at it. Agreed, 'twas not the Americans that ultimately killed the beast.

Not really. While the Chinese focused on communism, their failure was just as bad. Their recent success has been entirely based on rejecting certain aspects of communism and embracing certain facets of capitalism. There is no good execution of something so fatally flawed as communism.

[ToadBrother]

Not really. While the Chinese focused on communism, their failure was just as bad. Their recent success has been entirely based on rejecting certain aspects of communism and embracing certain facets of capitalism. There is no good execution of something so fatally flawed as communism.

I have a hard time calling China under Deng Xiaoping and his heirs as a Communist state. An autocratic state to be sure, with socialist elements (although it's been shedding itself of a lot of its state-owned industries for decades now). Communist China died with Mao and the Gang of Four. The imagery and other symbolic trappings were kept, but under the hood, China is about as Communist as your average Western European country.

[bush_cheney2004]

Silver and gold are taxed in many states.

You don't live in many/any states.

I think silver will fall down to the high 20's but I am not a very good short term trader, I see long term trends which I believe is up.

Good luck with that...there is just not enough upside action for my taste. Remember, I come from a time when gold peaked at over $2000 inflation adjusted US dollars (1980).

America is the only country I know of that has politicians calling for an end to their central bank.

Politicians call for lots of things....the financial world is bigger than America.

Edited June 24, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Not really. While the Chinese focused on communism, their failure was just as bad. Their recent success has been entirely based on rejecting certain aspects of communism and embracing certain facets of capitalism. There is no good execution of something so fatally flawed as communism.

Perhaps, but if you had to feed over a billion people with meager resources, communism was definitely in the mix. Eventually, economics helped them figure it out. China still exists....the same can't be said of the Soviet Union.

[Bonam]

Perhaps, but if you had to feed over a billion people with meager resources, communism was definitely in the mix. Eventually, economics helped them figure it out. China still exists....the same can't be said of the Soviet Union.

Communist China still exists as much as does communist Russia... that is, not at all. The difference is the Chinese leadership managed to make the transition with a semblance of continuity, in a gradual way. Gorbachev tried the same thing, but as soon as people started to learn a bit of the truth under Glasnost, the whole monstrosity fell apart, and communism ended with a rapid coup rather than a slow transition. The point is that communism was fundamentally unworkable, whether in Russia or in China. China is now something entirely different.

[jbg]

What you had here was a garden variety asset bubble... made worse by the fact that the over securization of US mortgages allowed a massive glut of foreign capital into the US housing market, and structural changes in the financial markets. What changed during the housing bubble? The CDS market grew from less than a hundred billion to almost 60 TRILLION... and demand for asset backed securities based on US realestate grew to such a high level that it was a PROFITABLE VENTURE to origionate even very risky loans, buy default swaps, and then bundle the whole mess into derivitives which are then sold through investment banks to pension fund managers in China, or hedge fund managers in Germany.

What really popped the housing bubble was its extreme extent. Housing prices went to levels that the resulting mortgage payments, even with extremely low interest rates, were out of control. My payment, on a $230,000 principal mortgage with a 15 year amortization, is about $1800 per month. That works well.

When you multiply that by about three, the required income to service that kind of debt and the property tax payments that go with it zoom to around $400,000 to $500,000 a year. There are truthfully not many people who can handle those payments. I know I couldn't.

Any my municipality has lots of houses still in the $1,000,000 range. Not mine, but others.

That, in a nutshell, is what the housing bubble is about. House prices will have to come down much further to solve the problem. No politician, Democrat or Republican, wants to face that truth.