Postal strike and Air Canada stike

Topaz · June 15, 2011

Harper is facing two strike and maybe a third, the railroad workers, I think. The government has the right to have their say on the postal but Air Canada, is a private company now, and the Toires have told other workers from private companies that faced unfair talks, that they don't get involved between the union and the Company. Really? Of, course, using the reason the economy, is a good one, but there too the Tories have boosted about how well that Canada was doing compared to the other countries. It seems after ONE day of strike the country's economy is in danger?? More like, the MP's will have problems flying home than anyhitng, this is about them. Air Canada said yesterday they saw littleproblems. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/06/14/air-canada-strike.html

AngusThermopyle · June 15, 2011

Strikes have happened before with other parties in power, you do know that don't you Topaz? You just end up looking ridiculous and desperate when you try to lay the blame for every thing in existance at Harpers door.

August1991 · June 15, 2011

This thread title is an interesting comparison.

First of all, Lisa Raitt has said that the cabinet will legislate the Air Canada workers back to work in 48 hours if they AC/unions don't come to an agreement. Why this intervention in the Air Canada case but not the Post Office? Bizarre as it sounds, I happen to think that an Air Canada strike has more effect on the lives of MPs and their staff than a postal strike.

Second, does it really matter if Air Canada is a private company whereas Canada Post is a crown corporation? The government can order workers back to work, or force management to undo a lock-out. It seems odd that governments create union legislation with collective bargaining, and then override the law whenever they want. Of course, the negotiations will then go to binding arbitration. I'm not sure that having my neighbour - however well informed - decide the price of my new car is a wise course of action in the long run.

But lastly, unfunded pension liabilities are the real issue here, and this issue goes well beyond Air Canada or Canada Post. At heart, we have alot of people in Canada who expect to get something in the future. It is quite obvious that many of these people are going to be disappointed because they won't receive what they expect.

In the case of Air Canada and Canada Post, future politicians are going to have trouble walking away from promises that in effect were made to government employees.

This is a clear description of teh problem in the context of Ontario teachers:

I don’t have to look very far to get an appreciation of the problems confronting the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan or, for that matter, most pension plans across Canada and, indeed, the world over. My wife, Liga, a retired Toronto teacher, is sitting nearby as I write this. At 64, she has been happily retired for 11 years, having been able to leave teaching when her age and years of service added up to 85.
Yes. She worked hard and worked well for 33 years. But yes. To be able to retire at 53 with a defined benefit pension is most fortunate.

...

The OTPP underlined the problem this week when it said 90 of its pensioners were over 100 years old. As life spans grow, the result will be that many teachers will have spent longer in retirement than they did working.

Windsor Star

This is the problem that Air Canada, Canada Post and we as a society face: we have retirees who will live much longer, and who expect to receive a monthly income until they die.

cybercoma · June 15, 2011

I'm quite disappointed with many of the comments appearing on the Canada Post website deriding CP employees as lazy and ungrateful. One commenter even went so far as to say the only risk CP employees have is a paper cut. In reality, lugging heavy bags of mail through all sorts of weather up and down the steps of homes and businesses is rough on the body as it is, through Canadian winters when people don't shovel properly or have ornaments on their railing and steps, it's downright dangerous. Let's not forget the old cliche of the postal worker being attacked by dogs because that happens too. Whatever their wage is, someone was saying $24/hour but I don't know where they get this number, they certainly deserve it.

Moreover, it's absolutely disgusting that people would comment about 20 other people waiting to take the postal workers' place, so the company should just fire everyone on strike. We seem to have lost sight of the fact that our labour is a commodity to be bought and sold through negotiation with an employer. Whether you negotiate as an individual or collectively through a union, we have every right to negotiate our compensation for our labour. Nowadays, people seem to think that a job is a gift. That there's some kind of charity on the part of an employer by hiring you. It's not charity. Every employer on the planet benefits from the fruits of our labour and we deserve to be compensated for it at whatever negotiated terms we can come to. Negotiating collectively only makes sense when companies all negotiate as a single entity with their employees. Instead of the company holding all the cards, the playing field needs to be balanced by allowing the employees to come to the table as a single collective unit. Labour is the single most important factor in any company and that labour is not the property of the employer until they have negotiated a contract for it.

The derogatory comments made on the news stories around the internet are a sad reflection of the social engineering that society has undergone at the hands of the corporate elite over the last 30 or so years. It's shameful.

cybercoma · June 15, 2011

This is the problem that Air Canada, Canada Post and we as a society face: we have retirees who will live much longer, and who expect to receive a monthly income until they die.

Indeed, the number has been slowly rising for a number of years; however, if the retirement age is 65 and average life expectancy is around 80, then that leaves a retiree with around 15 years before expiring. Using the example of people living over a hundred does as much of a disservice to rational discourse as pointing to the people that only live until 65 or expire shortly after retiring.

Shady · June 15, 2011

The derogatory comments made on the news stories around the internet are a sad reflection of the social engineering that society has undergone at the hands of the corporate elite over the last 30 or so years. It's shameful.

Complete nonsense. It's a product of private citizens that pay for these salaries, sick and tired of these people being sheltered from economic realities, like asking for pay and benefit increases during recessions and/or very slow periods of growth.

Tilter · June 15, 2011

In the long term--- Civil servants should NOT have the right to strike.

Postal workers will say that they are not civil servants and while that is true, the fact is that they carried all the civil service perqs over to the (semi) private field of government owned corporations. While they think of themselves as being employed in the private sector they also seem to somehow think that they are also entitled to the benefits of civil service as far as job security and the usual overly endowed vacation, sick days & general mollycoddling the civil service enjoy.

Suck it up & join the ranks of the less privileged private sector folk. The days of necessity of daily mail delivery & buggy whips are gone.

Shady · June 15, 2011

This is the problem that Air Canada, Canada Post and we as a society face: we have retirees who will live much longer, and who expect to receive a monthly income until they die.

Exactly. It's about time we raised the retirement age to 70. To more accurately reflect reality.

cybercoma · June 15, 2011

Complete nonsense. It's a product of private citizens that pay for these salaries, sick and tired of these people being sheltered from economic realities, like asking for pay and benefit increases during recessions and/or very slow periods of growth.

Private citizens pay the salaries of all employees everywhere.

Shady · June 15, 2011

Private citizens pay the salaries of all employees everywhere.

By choice.

August1991 · June 15, 2011

Indeed, the number has been slowly rising for a number of years; however, if the retirement age is 65 and average life expectancy is around 80, then that leaves a retiree with around 15 years before expiring. Using the example of people living over a hundred does as much of a disservice to rational discourse as pointing to the people that only live until 65 or expire shortly after retiring.

Cybercoma, many of these employees - under the terms of their contract - retire in their mid-fiifties, not at 65, and receive a full, indexed pension which is often 70% of their average final salary. And they don't die at 80. For someone who is 55, life expectancy in Canada is about 85 and rising. Since many government employees are women, this life expectancy is even longer.

Exactly. It's about time we raised the retirement age to 70. To more accurately reflect reality.

That won't solve the problem of people who have already retired or who are about to retire.

Using the example of people living over a hundred does as much of a disservice to rational discourse as pointing to the people that only live until 65 or expire shortly after retiring.

I am not claiming that every retiree will live to be over 100 but the fact that there are now about 90 Ontario teachers aged over 100 receiving a pension illustrates well the problem.

----

I don't think my point in this thread is plain. Nortel workers expected to receive a pension into their old age. Reality has turned out differently.

At present, a government guarantee seems like a good bet for a future stream of payments and that is ultimately what Air Canada and Canada Post (both workers and management) will likely fish for.

OTOH, government guarantees move the question into the world of politics and who knows how a politician in 10 years will approach this question.

30 years ago, back to work legislation was usually a controversial solution. Nowadays, governments pass it within a few hours of a strike.

Edited June 15, 2011 by August1991

bush_cheney2004 · June 15, 2011

Wow! Such a great thread...which will prevail in the mighty struggle? The benevolent Canadian "social contract" and labor rights, or spiteful Canadian miserliness and fiscal responsibility? I'm betting on the latter!

CPCFTW · June 15, 2011

I'm quite disappointed with many of the comments appearing on the Canada Post website deriding CP employees as lazy and ungrateful. One commenter even went so far as to say the only risk CP employees have is a paper cut. In reality, lugging heavy bags of mail through all sorts of weather up and down the steps of homes and businesses is rough on the body as it is, through Canadian winters when people don't shovel properly or have ornaments on their railing and steps, it's downright dangerous. Let's not forget the old cliche of the postal worker being attacked by dogs because that happens too. Whatever their wage is, someone was saying $24/hour but I don't know where they get this number, they certainly deserve it.

Moreover, it's absolutely disgusting that people would comment about 20 other people waiting to take the postal workers' place, so the company should just fire everyone on strike. We seem to have lost sight of the fact that our labour is a commodity to be bought and sold through negotiation with an employer. Whether you negotiate as an individual or collectively through a union, we have every right to negotiate our compensation for our labour. Nowadays, people seem to think that a job is a gift. That there's some kind of charity on the part of an employer by hiring you. It's not charity. Every employer on the planet benefits from the fruits of our labour and we deserve to be compensated for it at whatever negotiated terms we can come to. Negotiating collectively only makes sense when companies all negotiate as a single entity with their employees. Instead of the company holding all the cards, the playing field needs to be balanced by allowing the employees to come to the table as a single collective unit. Labour is the single most important factor in any company and that labour is not the property of the employer until they have negotiated a contract for it.

The derogatory comments made on the news stories around the internet are a sad reflection of the social engineering that society has undergone at the hands of the corporate elite over the last 30 or so years. It's shameful.

No one has lost sight of the fact that our labour is a commodity. You and the unions just seem to have lost sight of how a commodity is fairly priced. A commodity should be fairly priced by the supply/demand of labour. This means that when there is a recession and the supply of labour rises, while the demand for labour drops, wages should drop, not rise with inflation. Wages did drop in the real world, but not the public sector.

Bank tellers get paid like $13-15/hr with no pension. I've never received better or more competent service at an airport or post office than at a bank.

The fact that you are defending mail carriers making $24/hr just shows how out of touch with reality you are. I've worked as a courier for a newspaper making something like 15-20 cents per paper delivering from 3-6am every morning. Do you think I wouldn't have preferred to make $24/hr with a pension? You don't think the 7-8% of unemployed Canadians would love to be making $24/hr to carry mailbags around?

If a newspaper was run by a public company with unionized couriers, we'd be paying $20 for a newspaper. Then we'd legislate that no private newspaper can charge less than the publicly funded newspaper. This is the kind of world you union supporters think we should live in. It is not reality. It is a fantasy world where money grows on trees and the corporations and executive bonuses are just holding us down from getting paid 100k and retiring at 55 to a home and a cottage and yacht for our mindless manual labour.

Edited June 15, 2011 by CPCFTW

Topaz · June 15, 2011

Strikes have happened before with other parties in power, you do know that don't you Topaz? You just end up looking ridiculous and desperate when you try to lay the blame for every thing in existance at Harpers door.

Wait a minute. I live through all the postal strike in the 60's, 70's etc. Since this PM is for business and not for workers, how else can one account for the way they are handling this. Mail is still getting through until Canada Post close them down and locked them out, so the public, would become raging angry and be on the side of the government. Air Canada is a private firm, its not hurting the economy as yet after one day??? It's his minister that is giving directions.

Topaz · June 15, 2011

Today, it says the most thing these workers want is their pensions. Do you want to take that away. Canada Post is spinning this to their advantage and workers are tired of the CEO's walking away with golden pensions, when they are made to give millions back. Its not right or fair but then we are talking to a Reform/Conservative government.

CPCFTW · June 15, 2011

Today, it says the most thing these workers want is their pensions. Do you want to take that away. Canada Post is spinning this to their advantage and workers are tired of the CEO's walking away with golden pensions, when they are made to give millions back. Its not right or fair but then we are talking to a Reform/Conservative government.

As far as I know, no one is asking to take away pensions. They are asking that new hires be moved to a defined contribution plan like the majority of private sector pensions. Unskilled public labour should consider themselves lucky enough to even get a pension compared to unskilled labour in the private sector.

And yes I want to take that away from new hires that will be performing unskilled labour because the current pension liabilities alone are already underfunded. I don't think you have any understanding of the economic reality behind these underfunded pensions. You just like to cry murder whenever you detect something that appears to be unjust to you on the surface.

Edited June 15, 2011 by CPCFTW

Topaz · June 15, 2011

As far as I know, no one is asking to take away pensions. They are asking that new hires be moved to a defined contribution plan like the majority of private sector pensions. Unskilled public labour should consider themselves lucky enough to even get a pension compared to unskilled labour in the private sector.

And yes I want to take that away from new hires that will be performing unskilled labour because the current pension liabilities alone are already underfunded. I don't think you have any understanding of the economic reality behind these underfunded pensions. You just like to cry murder whenever you detect something that appears to be unjust to you on the surface.

You know theres one thing about all governments, they take away from their workers, but they add to their own. People on these forums complain of spending their tax dollars, and rightly so, but what so you say about governments that get involved in talks between unions and companies, or governments take more of YOUR tax $$ for their pensions while supporting to reduce others. Where`s the fairness? Its high time the public ask for a over haul of the MP`s and senate benefits that matches more in line with other Fed workers. Think of the money we would save!

CPCFTW · June 15, 2011

You know theres one thing about all governments, they take away from their workers, but they add to their own. People on these forums complain of spending their tax dollars, and rightly so, but what so you say about governments that get involved in talks between unions and companies, or governments take more of YOUR tax $$ for their pensions while supporting to reduce others. Where`s the fairness? Its high time the public ask for a over haul of the MP`s and senate benefits that matches more in line with other Fed workers. Think of the money we would save!

I agree. Mps are heavily overcompensated as well. New mps should be moved to a DC plan. Taxpayers would save a TON of money. What's your point? They're all overpaid. Got to start somewhere. When the publix sector cashiers don't have DB plans then we will have the leverage to argue that MPs are over-compensated too.

MiddleClassCentrist · June 16, 2011

Back to work legislation is ridiculous in this situation at this current time.

This shows that the Conservative Government has absolutely no regard for labour and worker rights.

These are two non-essential services.

There are other companies that deliver mail in Canada if anything is urgent. Anything truly essential can use FedEx, UPS, etc. 95% I ever receive in standard mail is junk anyways. What I do receive that matters, is never urgent. I receive urgent notices via telephone or email.

There are companies other than Air Canada to be used during this time. Air Canada is not an essential monopoly on flight traffic.

Not only that but in the case of CanPost, they are being LOCKED OUT by the employer. An underhanded move most likely put in place to force back to work legislation. They have only been out for a short time on rotational strikes. Personally, I could get used to 3 day a week mail service for residential and it would cost much less.

August1991 · June 16, 2011

Bank tellers get paid like $13-15/hr with no pension. I've never received better or more competent service at an airport or post office than at a bank.

Well, perhaps they're underpaid.

CPCFTW, you make it seem as if it's better if everyone is poor and suffers. Are you a Lutheran?

Wait a minute. I live through all the postal strike in the 60's, 70's etc.

Strikes lasted much longer then. Is that good?

Today, it says the most thing these workers want is their pensions. Do you want to take that away. Canada Post is spinning this to their advantage and workers are tired of the CEO's walking away with golden pensions, when they are made to give millions back. Its not right or fair but then we are talking to a Reform/Conservative government.

Topaz, we can rightly argue about the compensation of the CEOs of Air Canada or Canada Post. But as you present the question, that's roughly comparable to arguing about the compensation of Lady Gaga, the Vancouver hockey player Tim Thomas or the latest lottery winner.

Who would argue that lotteries make Canada a more unequal society because they take money from the poor and middle class and make a few people very rich?

-----

Nurses and teachers, for example, across Canada have been promised as State employees good pensions. They expect to retire in their mid-50s (if they haven't already) and expect to receive about 70% of their last salary, indexed, until they die.

To maintain this promise, future governments will have to tax younger people or other older, retired people. Is that fair? Do you think future politicians will keep this promise?

Wilber · June 16, 2011

From another topic on this forum

With the company’s return to profitability in 2010 and a brighter future on the horizon, Air Canada’s demands for more cuts, fewer full-time jobs, and outsourcing appear baseless. It’s made worse by CEO Calin Rovinescu’s hefty 76 per cent pay hike that landed him $4.55 million in compensation last year, a defined benefit pension that would pay him $351,000 per year at age 65, and a $5 million retention bonus he would be paid just for staying on the job until March 2012. His insistence that workers accept less reeks of hypocrisy.

In fact, Air Canada's executive compensation has increased and average of 115% since the company came out of bankruptcy protection.

As part of coming out of CCAA in 2003, Air Canada employees took and average 20% haircut in wages and benefits. They have had no increases since and are now in the process of trying not to lose more. After CCAA, the new holding company for Air Canada, ACE Aviation proceeded with what may be the biggest corporate rape in Canadian history. They sold off billions in some of the most profitable Air Canada assets and distributed the proceeds to ACE shareholders, Deutsche Bank and Cerberus Corp were two of the biggest corporate recipients with Robert Milton the CEO of ACE and former CEO of Air Canada being one of the largest individual benefactors. The components sold off included Aeroplan, Jazz and the heavy maintenance division, with Air Canada as the cash cow, bound to keep those operations running profitably. Jazz became and income trust paying out around 16% to its share holders. It is now held by Chorus Aviation which is paying a dividend of over 11%. As the great majority of Jazz business comes from Air Canada, most of that 16% and 11% came out of Air Canada's bottom line instead of being added to it.

When all this was going on, the employees protested and were told that Air Canada was a private company and government couldn't interfere. Now the shoe is on the other foot and apparently they can. With Air Canada holding 60% of the domestic and most of the Canadian carrier international market, the government is probably afraid of losing their cash cow which makes Canada's airports so profitable, not to mention the free business class tickets MP's get to travel from their constituencies to Ottawa.

This might be the fiscal responsibility BC was referring to.

CPCFTW · June 16, 2011

What does executive compensation have to do with anything? We're talking about 4000 workers (or 40,000 in the case of CUPW). A few highly paid execs is a drop in the bucket compared to the entire labour force. To quote the typical union member's argument: If you're jealous of executive compensation, then why not just apply? :lol:

Edited June 16, 2011 by CPCFTW

Wilber · June 16, 2011

What does executive compensation have to do with anything? We're talking about 4000 workers (or 40,000 in the case of CUPW). A few highly paid execs is a drop in the bucket compared to the entire labour force. To quote the typical union member's argument: If you're jealous of executive compensation, then why not just apply?

Ever heard of leading by example? Not asking others to do anything you wouldn't be prepared to do yourself? Guess not.

August1991 · June 16, 2011

In fact, Air Canada's executive compensation has increased and average of 115% since the company came out of bankruptcy protection.

So, Calin Rovinescu won a lottery.

Wilber, should we abolish lotteries? Would that make Canada more fair? Would it improve the Canadian economy?

-----

IMV, we face two problems. One immediate, and the other long term.

First, many people expect to receive something in the future, sometimes based on a State guarantee, but it's obvious even now that they won't receive it. In short, many people will not receive the CPP/state pension that they expect.

Second, civilized democracies choose leaders in random fashion. IOW, we ask a person chosen randomly to solve our collective problems. Sadly, we have not found a better way to choose leaders - from CEOs to PMs.

Edited June 16, 2011 by August1991

CPCFTW · June 16, 2011

Ever heard of leading by example? Not asking others to do anything you wouldn't be prepared to do yourself? Guess not.

Seriously? Your argument has come to this? :lol:

So companies should go bankrupt unless they have a leader who leads by example? :lol:

Execs are paid handsomely for their experience and education, and to make the tough decisions and be the bad guy to all the hippies out there. :lol:

People should work harder and maybe one day they'll be at the top raking in 7 figures... Or just join a union and whine that someone who worked harder than them gets paid more than them and therefore the government should guarantee their pensions and give them money and rainbows and gumdrops. :lol:

Edited June 16, 2011 by CPCFTW