jbg Posted June 15, 2011 Report Posted June 15, 2011 what are you talking about? Are you just blithering away? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted June 15, 2011 Report Posted June 15, 2011 There is a way for all of us to discuss the Middle East conflict without the same tiresome sweeping stereotypes spewed against Israelis, Jews, Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims.I will try. I will not achieve perfection, in your eyes or anyone's in my lifetime. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
weegie Posted June 15, 2011 Report Posted June 15, 2011 Why do so many people dislike Israel? I just don't get it. They have never ever started a war, yet have never lost one either. It's not their fault that all of their surrounding neighbours (and a lot of the rest of the world) see them as inferior just because of their religion. I wouldn't say Israel is aggressive or intentionally does anything to harm or offend others (except in the obvious case of war). So please enlighten me on this hatred of Israel. Quote
dre Posted June 15, 2011 Report Posted June 15, 2011 Why do so many people dislike Israel? I just don't get it. They have never ever started a war, yet have never lost one either. It's not their fault that all of their surrounding neighbours (and a lot of the rest of the world) see them as inferior just because of their religion. I wouldn't say Israel is aggressive or intentionally does anything to harm or offend others (except in the obvious case of war). So please enlighten me on this hatred of Israel. Go read a bit of history. Both sides of been provoking EACH OTHER for many many decades. They both have had a major hand in starting and perpetuating this conflict. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted June 15, 2011 Report Posted June 15, 2011 Why do so many people dislike Israel? I just don't get it. They have never ever started a war, yet have never lost one either. It's not their fault that all of their surrounding neighbours (and a lot of the rest of the world) see them as inferior just because of their religion. I wouldn't say Israel is aggressive or intentionally does anything to harm or offend others (except in the obvious case of war). So please enlighten me on this hatred of Israel. I don't think either of the world's major monotheistic religions have come to grips with the legitimacy of a Jewish state. Judaism was the ancestor of both Islam and Christianity. As such I believe that both religions consider themselves to have superseded our religion. Further, there is insecurity concerning our claim to authenticity. There is a tension between, on one hand, the Old Testament and the New Testament in many areas. The Koran and the Old Testament are also difficult to reconcile. The solution, for some, is non-recognition of the Jewish people or violence. For others, the solution is to grant the Jews a subservient status, called "dhimmitude" in Islam. This does not square with Israel being an independent and Jewish state. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
M.Dancer Posted June 15, 2011 Report Posted June 15, 2011 Go read a bit of history. Both sides of been provoking EACH OTHER for many many decades. They both have had a major hand in starting and perpetuating this conflict. For a shrinking group of Baghdadi Jews, Shavuot is a day of mourning when the terrifying memory of the Farhud returns. Seventy years ago, a mob of Iraqi Muslims, fuelled by Nazi propaganda and armed with knives and guns, began chanting "Kutal al Yehud" (slaughter the Jews) , and launched a pogrom that killed more than 100 Jews in two days of violent attacks. The farhud ended 2,600 years of Jewish life in Babylon - the oldest Jewish community in the Diaspora - and illustrated how far Hitler’s anti-Semitism had spread by 1941. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/remembering-iraq-s-shavuot-massacre-1.366831 Some provocations came simply by being a jew... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
DogOnPorch Posted June 16, 2011 Report Posted June 16, 2011 http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/remembering-iraq-s-shavuot-massacre-1.366831 Some provocations came simply by being a jew... The Grand Mufti, again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Iraqi_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Oleg Bach Posted June 16, 2011 Report Posted June 16, 2011 Jews are harmless...some times an irritant at the most - This stero typing of them being some sort of race of highly intelligent and skillful wizards is a lot of hog wash. Those that are anti-semites and wish to harm the Jews for supposedly being our cruel and cunning masters are idiots. If they want to cuddle up in the homeland and have one big exclusive happy family - so be it ...we should all be entitled to a home - with four walls and a door we can look when we want....Anti -semites are a sadder case than even homo-phobes who fear gays --- as if the gay is going to lisp you to death - or the Jew is going to bore you to death with their institutional lack of development. Quote
Bob Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 Why do so many people dislike Israel? I just don't get it. They have never ever started a war, yet have never lost one either. It's not their fault that all of their surrounding neighbours (and a lot of the rest of the world) see them as inferior just because of their religion. I wouldn't say Israel is aggressive or intentionally does anything to harm or offend others (except in the obvious case of war). So please enlighten me on this hatred of Israel. This is not an easy question to answer. The animosity towards Israel from our enemies is rooted in many causes. Among ordinary decent folks, it is primarily rooted in ignorance of history and contemporary events as well as being subjected to false narratives and propaganda. Among those who are more familiar with the conflict who can't use ignorance as an excuse, it's something much more malicious. Other times there is a sort of reflexive resentment towards Israel among leftists, who view the Arabs ("Palestinians") as the underdog oppressed by big bad Israel. At the end of the day, though, does it really matter? Israel simply needs to stay strong and combat the lies and misrepresentations to the best of its ability. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
Bob Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 I don't think either of the world's major monotheistic religions have come to grips with the legitimacy of a Jewish state. Judaism was the ancestor of both Islam and Christianity. As such I believe that both religions consider themselves to have superseded our religion. Further, there is insecurity concerning our claim to authenticity. There is a tension between, on one hand, the Old Testament and the New Testament in many areas. The Koran and the Old Testament are also difficult to reconcile. The solution, for some, is non-recognition of the Jewish people or violence. For others, the solution is to grant the Jews a subservient status, called "dhimmitude" in Islam. This does not square with Israel being an independent and Jewish state. I think there's truth to this. I saw a Christopher Hitchens speech at a Daniel Pearl memorial on YouTube, and his view (which I somewhat agree with) is that Christianity and Islam can't really get over the "insult" to their belief systems from the Jewish people, who saw both Jesus and Muhammad and said, "no sale". In other words, in a general sense, many of them can't forgive us for rejecting the new "revelations" from their "prophets". We are the only people still around today who bore witness to both Jesus and Muhammad and didn't buy into the hype. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
jbg Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 ....Christianity and Islam can't really get over the "insult" to their belief systems from the Jewish people, who saw both Jesus and Muhammad and said, "no sale". In other words, in a general sense, many of them can't forgive us for rejecting the new "revelations" from their "prophets". We are the only people still around today who bore witness to both Jesus and Muhammad and didn't buy into the hype. You said it better than I could have. Our existence is a challenge to their legitimacy so they fight fire with fire. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Rue Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 I will try. I will not achieve perfection, in your eyes or anyone's in my lifetime. Neither will I. Quote
jbg Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 Neither will I. Let's agree then. I will try to generalize less; you will drop some of your blind hostility to my posts? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Rue Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) Why do so many people dislike Israel? I just don't get it. They have never ever started a war, yet have never lost one either. It's not their fault that all of their surrounding neighbours (and a lot of the rest of the world) see them as inferior just because of their religion. I wouldn't say Israel is aggressive or intentionally does anything to harm or offend others (except in the obvious case of war). So please enlighten me on this hatred of Israel. In the case of Israel simply defining itself as a Jewish state was sufficient to be considered by Muslims and certain (certainly not all) Christians as an abomination. For Muslims the concept of a state other than a Muslim state has religious roots of intolerance. Its based on dhimmitude-the concept that a Jew is not equal to a Muslim and should certainly not have equal rights let alone a state and that still prevails today. For certainChristians it is partially religious intolerance (going back to the Passion Play and the concept that all Jews are cursed with the collective responsibility of having killed Jesus and therefore deserve anything bad that happens to them) and partially denial of the holocaust or that religious intolerance which culminated in the need for Jews to flee for their existential survival and take a last stand with universal sufferage to prevent their extinction at the hands of Christians as well as Muslims which is also a political denial. There is no doubt over the many years of Israel's existence subsequent policies have exasperated tensions between Israelis and Palestinians. No one is saying certain Israeli policies can't be reformed,changed or in hindsight were negative or counter-productive. Israel is not a perfect nation. However the fundamental roots of the conflict comes down to one issue and one issue only, Muslims in Muslim states and Christians in Christian states believing while they can have Christian and Muslim states, Jews can't have but 1 Jewish state. We can spin that around and try revise history and blame Israel and Jews for everything that ever happened which many do, but at the root of the conflict is that one basic issue which is in fact the double standard, that Jews should be the only collective people in the world who should not enjoy universal sufferage. Its o.k. for Muslims to have multiple Muslim states and Christians to have multiple Christian states, but not never for the Jewish collective to have its nation. To me its just another version of trying to remind the Jew they are inferior and need to ke kept in their place, i.e., always a minotiry outside looking in at the majority. It really is simple. Israel is a golf course created by Jews when they were excluded from Christian and Muslim ones. In an ideal world there would be NO golf clubs. Edited June 17, 2011 by Rue Quote
bloodyminded Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) I think there's truth to this. I saw a Christopher Hitchens speech at a Daniel Pearl memorial on YouTube, and his view (which I somewhat agree with) is that Christianity and Islam can't really get over the "insult" to their belief systems from the Jewish people, who saw both Jesus and Muhammad and said, "no sale". In other words, in a general sense, many of them can't forgive us for rejecting the new "revelations" from their "prophets". We are the only people still around today who bore witness to both Jesus and Muhammad and didn't buy into the hype. I think it's an interesting idea, and is maybe part of the story, but I don't think it fully explains the phenomenon. The fact that Judaism is Christianity and Islam's grandfather--the single intelligent word ever spoken by a modern Pope--does help to explain the centrality of Jews within long-standing cultural traditions, but the antipathy has been quite strange. In the Coen brothers' A Serious Man, the Job-like main character once has a dream-sequence wherein his neighbour, the only non-Jew in the neighbourhood, assassinates him. No reason is given; the scene appears out of nowhere, and then the idea is dropped. His many tribulations are explored and agonized over: his "serious"ness is an aspect of the Judaic intellectual/spiritual quest to come to terms with the world and learn how best to exist within it. (Albeit in highly comedic form.) But the daydream of the anti-semitic murder is not part of this, because it's irrational and beyond comprehension. Edited June 17, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
jbg Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 I think it's an interesting idea, and is maybe part of the story, but I don't think it fully explains the phenomenon. The fact that Judaism is Christianity and Islam's grandfather--the single intelligent word ever spoken by a modern Pope--does help to explain the centrality of Jews within long-standing cultural traditions, but the antipathy has been quite strange.In addition to what Bob and I expressed I think there is another aspect. Unlike many other very small groups such as Zoroastorians and Baha'is, the Jews have been exceeding successful. Being impossible to ignore or marginalize, hostility is the next logical response. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bob Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 I think it's an interesting idea, and is maybe part of the story, but I don't think it fully explains the phenomenon. The fact that Judaism is Christianity and Islam's grandfather--the single intelligent word ever spoken by a modern Pope--does help to explain the centrality of Jews within long-standing cultural traditions, but the antipathy has been quite strange. In the Coen brothers' A Serious Man, the Job-like main character once has a dream-sequence wherein his neighbour, the only non-Jew in the neighbourhood, assassinates him. No reason is given; the scene appears out of nowhere, and then the idea is dropped. His many tribulations are explored and agonized over: his "serious"ness is an aspect of the Judaic intellectual/spiritual quest to come to terms with the world and learn how best to exist within it. (Albeit in highly comedic form.) But the daydream of the anti-semitic murder is not part of this, because it's irrational and beyond comprehension. It's just a component of the multifaceted phenomenon that is anti-Semitism. I certainly didn't mean for this to be seen as the fundamental root/common denominator of all anti-Semitism out there. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
bloodyminded Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 It's just a component of the multifaceted phenomenon that is anti-Semitism. I certainly didn't mean for this to be seen as the fundamental root/common denominator of all anti-Semitism out there. No, I get that. Just talkin.' Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
eCitizen Posted June 17, 2011 Report Posted June 17, 2011 A review in a recent issue of The Economist of a two books describing the situation for Palestinian Arab citizens within Israel... http://www.economist.com/node/18741300 Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 A review in a recent issue of The Economist of a two books describing the situation for Palestinian Arab citizens within Israel... http://www.economist.com/node/18741300 280 pages; $85 and £50!!! There better be cool maps n' diagrams. You gettin' a hunk o' the action? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 280 pages; $85 and £50!!! There better be cool maps n' diagrams. You gettin' a hunk o' the action? Shucks...a current Jane's Fighting Ships will set you back $1,000 USD. But it does have plenty of cool pictures and diagrams. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Rue Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 you have a history of making nonsensical comparisons to somehow silence criticism of israel and the u.s. so the onus is on you to back up whatever claim you try to make. Actually if it was anyone else he would back up whatever claim he has to make. I wouldagree with him it would be a wasted effort with you. You've made that clear in your responses. Now for you to call his posts nonsensical is funny. You are a grossly obese man telling an American he eats too much. Here's a hint, before you do that at least put on a bra beneath that shirt. You vibrate your tits when you point your accusatory finger. Quote
GostHacked Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 Even the jews in this thread can't quite seem to agree with each other. Interesting. Quote
Rue Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 (edited) Even the jews in this thread can't quite seem to agree with each other. Interesting. Why are you making the inference we Jews all have to have the same opinion? Of course we have differing opinions. Why shouldn't we? By the way if you did notice the JOOOOOOOOZ on this thread actually agree on what each other has said about anti-semitism or our Jewish collective identity. There is no disagreement on that nor has there ever been. Sorry I don't walk and talk like Bob or JBG. Our noses are probably different as well. However we all are circumsized. I trust that is uniform enough for your need to lump us in one category. I have no idea whether we are all the same size. I have no intention of measuring Bob or JBG. Edited June 18, 2011 by Rue Quote
eCitizen Posted June 18, 2011 Report Posted June 18, 2011 (edited) Shucks...a current Jane's Fighting Ships will set you back $1,000 USD. But it does have plenty of cool pictures and diagrams. I once bought a set of 3 books in Beijing that were published in Singapore - Fun With Chinese Characters. It cost me $US150 because the Politburo (or whoever) had decided to restrict all foreign language publications to rich foreigners.... er well something like that. At least as near as I can figure it out. You could only buy it in the "Friendship Stores". It was actually worth it. Well at least at the salary I was making then. A three volume set laying out the most commonly used Chinese characters with illustrations and English explanations for each one, with etymology, use and variations. Turns out it was developed by the Government of Singapore and published by the Singapore Straits Times to teach Mandarin to Singaporian children. Lee Quan Yew had a big campaign on to make Mandarin the the official Chinese dialect of the island nation (as opposed to the mutated South China version being spoken in the streets). There were banners across Orchard Road : Learn Mandarin!. I'm not kidding. It was around this time that Deng Xiaopeng told the world that he thought China should be modeled on Singapore! The mouse that roared. Imagine Harper saying Canada should be modeled on New York... or Marseilles.. or any foreign city. Damn, that little man had some big balls. Where is Israel's Deng Xiaopeng? Maybe I should have waited for my next trip and bought it in Singapore. Probably would have cost me $S10! Edited June 18, 2011 by eCitizen Quote
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