Gloomy predictions for the economic future

[GostHacked]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/28/greece.strike/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Athens, Greece (CNN) -- Greek riot police fired tear gas to disperse stone-throwing demonstrators Tuesday, as thousands marched to protest proposed austerity measures on the first day of a two-day strike. Some protesters threw rocks at security forces.

One demonstrator and three police officers have been slightly injured, the police said. About 3,000 officers are deployed on the streets of Athens.

The protesters are rallying outside the Greek Parliament building in the center of the country's capital, where lawmakers are set to vote Wednesday on a tough five-year package of tax increases and spending cuts.

Despite bail out. It will get worse. Countries need to do what Iceland did. Tell the central bankers to piss off.

[Pliny]

All is well _ anytime we give into an economic or metal depression the rats prosper...don't let them convince you to be more poor...because it seems anything a recession or depression is forcast...some one out their gets richer.. Why is that?

Someone must be in charge of redistributing the wealth. It's a big job and they don't do it for nothing.

[Oleg Bach]

Someone must be in charge of redistributing the wealth. It's a big job and they don't do it for nothing.

It`s not about redistribution..which is socialism - that does not work. It is about allowing those with ability to go the limit...and keep their wealth. Where is the motivation to become finacially independent if it is going to be taken away from you...Once such a system takes hold and the wealth is removed from the wealthy....where and how will the new wealthy emerge...there will not be any. It`s a case of justice...if we have justice in the world...we will do fine - For instance if a company wants to enter an African nation and do some mining - they have to pay those that OWN the country for what they extract...not try to get as much for nothing as possible - which is the trend with mulit-nationals....You have to be fair - you must be JUST.

[maple_leafs182]

It`s not about redistribution..which is socialism - that does not work. It is about allowing those with ability to go the limit...and keep their wealth. Where is the motivation to become finacially independent if it is going to be taken away from you...Once such a system takes hold and the wealth is removed from the wealthy...

I really wish we could be fair and just but there is no profit in that.

As for the redistribution of wealth...what we have now is more like reverse socialism, the wealth isn't being redistributed amongst the people, it is being distributed to the banks and corporations. There is clearly a flaw in both our monetary and economic systems that are creating the parameters that lead to the problems we face.

The monetary system has a big problem, fiat money along with Central and fractional reserve banking encourages countries to go into debt. Generations of debts and interest piling sky high putting the burden on future generations to pay off a debt they did not create.

Then there is the inflationary side of fiat currencies...

[Michael Hardner]

It`s not about redistribution..which is socialism - that does not work. It is about allowing those with ability to go the limit...and keep their wealth.

That's a new way to look at it: government is adding value by ensuring social stability for the wealthy, since they are historically bad at it.

[Michael Hardner]

As for the redistribution of wealth...what we have now is more like reverse socialism, the wealth isn't being redistributed amongst the people, it is being distributed to the banks and corporations.

...

The monetary system has a big problem, fiat money along with Central and fractional reserve banking encourages countries to go into debt. Generations of debts and interest piling sky high putting the burden on future generations to pay off a debt they did not create.

It's not the bailouts that cause the countries to go into debt, it's that programs aren't supported by taxation levels. As such, you can't accuse banks and corporations of taking money from the people - people are getting money too.

And this new term we're seeing - 'fiat currency' - really just means money as it has been for 40 years and more. They're calling it a new word for some reason, but it's money. What are we really talking about here - what is Ron Paul really talking about ? They're talking about lowering or eliminating the deficit, right ?

[Oleg Bach]

I really wish we could be fair and just but there is no profit in that.

As for the redistribution of wealth...what we have now is more like reverse socialism, the wealth isn't being redistributed amongst the people, it is being distributed to the banks and corporations. There is clearly a flaw in both our monetary and economic systems that are creating the parameters that lead to the problems we face.

The monetary system has a big problem, fiat money along with Central and fractional reserve banking encourages countries to go into debt. Generations of debts and interest piling sky high putting the burden on future generations to pay off a debt they did not create.

Then there is the inflationary side of fiat currencies...

There is profit in being fair and just. Last year I stayed at a very nice cottage in the beautiful north. The Island had been in the family since 1860...There was a rule there and a tradtion - we were all expected to do our part in the daily maintianace of the house hold - The cook and the maid were treated with the same respect as the owner of the place...point being there was no dominace taking place. The founder of this place was an old Scotish man who was big on justice - and because if it - the property is still in the hands of the family - In other words justice means being PROPER....It is when improper behaviour becomes the norm that systems fail.

[GostHacked]

It's not the bailouts that cause the countries to go into debt, it's that programs aren't supported by taxation levels. As such, you can't accuse banks and corporations of taking money from the people - people are getting money too.

The bailouts are designed so the country never gets out of debt. That is the main issue with a privately owned central bank. Canada owes a lot on its debt, how do you expect we collectively pay it off because those at the top are screwing us over?

And this new term we're seeing - 'fiat currency' - really just means money as it has been for 40 years and more. They're calling it a new word for some reason, but it's money. What are we really talking about here - what is Ron Paul really talking about ? They're talking about lowering or eliminating the deficit, right ?

The term fiat currency/money originated in China 11th century. So it is not a new term. The concept then is the same as it is now. He is not looking so much at the deficit as he is on the overall debt. The deficit really just means that the trading with other partners is not 100% give and take. You are selling more than buying or vice versa. Imports vrs exports.

Paul wants to get rid of the debt. Getting rid of that will help the deficit because you don't have to borrow money when times get tough. Think of it like you have some savings in the account to last you a few months while in between jobs (might be a bad analogy)

Edited June 30, 2011 by GostHacked

[WIP]

The bailouts are designed so the country never gets out of debt. That is the main issue with a privately owned central bank. Canada owes a lot on its debt, how do you expect we collectively pay it off because those at the top are screwing us over?

This game is being played all over the world -- drive a nation into bankruptcy through offering political leaders easy lines of credit, and then start leveraging the complete takeover of their economy by the large multinational corporations. Hidden among the stories on riots and currency issues, we find disaster capitalism at work: a fire sale of public utilities, telecommunications and even tourist resort islands to foreign investors. The world bankers have learned how to invade and colonize nations without firing a shot! Armies are only needed to enforce debt collection and the security of foreign businessmen.

http://www.americablog.com/2011/06/hidden-greek-bailout-50-billion.html

Edited June 30, 2011 by WIP

[GostHacked]

This game is being played all over the world -- drive a nation into bankruptcy through offering political leaders easy lines of credit, and then start leveraging the complete takeover of their economy by the large multinational corporations. Hidden among the stories on riots and currency issues, we find disaster capitalism at work: a fire sale of public utilities, telecommunications and even tourist resort islands to foreign investors. The world bankers have learned how to invade and colonize nations without firing a shot! Armies are only needed to enforce debt collection and the security of foreign businessmen.

http://www.americablog.com/2011/06/hidden-greek-bailout-50-billion.html

The crazy thing is that more and more are seeming to become aware of these issues, and the fact that our countries have collectively been financially hijacked by these bankers.

And you are right, first thing I though of was a firesale when Greece was looking at selling it's infrastructure to qualify for the loan/bailout.

[Oleg Bach]

The crazy thing is that more and more are seeming to become aware of these issues, and the fact that our countries have collectively been financially hijacked by these bankers.

And you are right, first thing I though of was a firesale when Greece was looking at selling it's infrastructure to qualify for the loan/bailout.

You don`t sell your bridges to bail yourself out. It would make matters worse. If you do sell infrastructure someone is going to put a toll booth on every corner and life would become even MORE stressful...who would come out with such an idea as selling off infrastructure - certainly not someone with the best interests of Greece in mind.

[sharkman]

This game is being played all over the world -- drive a nation into bankruptcy through offering political leaders easy lines of credit, and then start leveraging the complete takeover of their economy by the large multinational corporations. Hidden among the stories on riots and currency issues, we find disaster capitalism at work: a fire sale of public utilities, telecommunications and even tourist resort islands to foreign investors. The world bankers have learned how to invade and colonize nations without firing a shot! Armies are only needed to enforce debt collection and the security of foreign businessmen.

http://www.americablog.com/2011/06/hidden-greek-bailout-50-billion.html

Nice conspiracy theory, but it doesn't add up. Greece is a prime example. How did they get into the jam they are in? It's the peoples' fault. Socialism has borne bitter fruit and the people still don't see the train coming through the tunnel at them. It could bring the bankers down who offer them lines of credit, not help them.

[dre]

Nice conspiracy theory, but it doesn't add up. Greece is a prime example. How did they get into the jam they are in? It's the peoples' fault. Socialism has borne bitter fruit and the people still don't see the train coming through the tunnel at them. It could bring the bankers down who offer them lines of credit, not help them.

Thats a gross oversimplification. You know you can actually read about what happened right? On the interweb!

[GostHacked]

Nice conspiracy theory, but it doesn't add up. Greece is a prime example. How did they get into the jam they are in? It's the peoples' fault.

It's not a conspiracy theory, it is happening out in the open right in front of your eyes. You can't blame the people without blaming the banks that allowed them to get into this mess. You can't blame the people when investors screwed them over by losing their money on really bad investments that were essentially designed to fail.

Socialism has borne bitter fruit and the people still don't see the train coming through the tunnel at them. It could bring the bankers down who offer them lines of credit, not help them.

It's not socialism that is the problem, it is a problem with the financial/investment system. The situation in the US with QE1, QE2, and a soon to be QE3, is that a fault of the American people? Or should we blame the banks that failed regardless of the bailouts?

Many don't even know the train is coming, but we called the people who predicted the mess, crazy and tinfoil hat wearers. They continue to talk about the decline if something is not done to fix or replace the current system. And yet many still discount what they say and think everything is fine.

The only thing you can lay fault with the people,is for being totally bamboozled by the ones who got us into this mess.

[sharkman]

Oh, it's socialism alright. When citizens want big daddy government to take care of every single single thing in their lives, they give too much power to a government. The one in Greece has consequently screwed up royally and Greece might well become a third world country. The US could be heading down the same road, albeit much earlier in the cycle. There might be time to save their economy, but not if Obama gets another 4 years.

[eyeball]

Nice conspiracy theory, but it doesn't add up. Greece is a prime example. How did they get into the jam they are in? It's the peoples' fault. Socialism has borne bitter fruit and the people still don't see the train coming through the tunnel at them. It could bring the bankers down who offer them lines of credit, not help them.

What seems to have really pushed Greece so much closer to the edge is that so many people are evading taxes. I'm betting most have done so because they see so much corruption bettering the lives and fortunes of already wealthy and powerful people in their society, people who of course should know better.

As for socialism's bitter fruit, the dried husks that capitalism seem to be yielding up in increasing quantities don't look all that more appetizing.

Just as an aside to the gloomy predictions for the economic future, capitalism is also consuming the planet from under our feet and the bankers seem completely oblivious to it. The economists have effectively told them our environment exists outside our economy and doesn't really factor into things. The trickle-down effect of this so-called insight probably explains the conventional reaction to concerns about our environment, never mind social issues, which range between barely polite disinterest from capitalists to apoplectic rage from...folks much like you.

There is no conspiracy, just a bunch of piranha nodding and winking amongst themselves. They'll soon be taking chunks out of one another once the carcass they've been shredding is all but consumed.

Edited July 1, 2011 by eyeball

[sharkman]

Would you mind listing a few capital husks? And how capitalism is consuming the planet under our feet. Very creative colourful language, but the west(capitalism) has the most restrictive legislation bar none to protect mother earth. It's China, Mexico, Pakistan and places like these that are abusing the environment.

Yeah, I don't believe a conspiracy is responsible for Greece, the ME, etc., but whenever the landscape is changing it's a dangerous time.

[Oleg Bach]

My dumber younger brother would mis quote and say "The bible says that all men were created equal" - I would tell him that it was Lincoln who said that...no one is equal...socialism oppresses the minds and hearts of the superiour. Capitalism does eventually evolve into a type of socialism and eventually does the same once corporations gain more power than governments. Everybody wants to predict the future in order to control it..that's kind of evil - nothing more irritating than a person who believes they are good when they are actually a common trouble maker...let the future unfold - because it is always positive if you leave it alone.

[eyeball]

Would you mind listing a few capital husks? And how capitalism is consuming the planet under our feet. Very creative colourful language, but the west(capitalism) has the most restrictive legislation bar none to protect mother earth. It's China, Mexico, Pakistan and places like these that are abusing the environment.

That's why so many western capitalists are setting up shop in the places you just listed. Abusing the environment is effectively the same thing consuming the planet from under our feet.

[maple_leafs182]

...It is when improper behaviour becomes the norm that systems fail.

I look at it a little differently then you. I see the system as being responsible for our behaviour rather then our behaviour being responsible for the system.

[maple_leafs182]

It's not the bailouts that cause the countries to go into debt, it's that programs aren't supported by taxation levels. As such, you can't accuse banks and corporations of taking money from the people - people are getting money too.

Fiat money along with fractional reserve banking are the tools that allow so much debt to be issued in the first place, they are responsible for the debt. Whatever programs or services that money was spent on is irrelevant.

These banks and corporations usually see the money first so they get to use it when it is worth the most. The dollars used in the bailouts and stimulus are worth less now compared to when the banks and corporations originally had them. So yes the people get that money too but its worth less.

[interiorboy]

Fiat money along with fractional reserve banking are the tools that allow so much debt to be issued in the first place, they are responsible for the debt. Whatever programs or services that money was spent on is irrelevant.

These banks and corporations usually see the money first so they get to use it when it is worth the most. The dollars used in the bailouts and stimulus are worth less now compared to when the banks and corporations originally had them. So yes the people get that money too but its worth less.

I agree. When the recession first showed it's ugly head in 08 Ithought not much of it. I thought that it was just part of the economic cycle. when I payed attention, I started to notice that there was a whole lot more to what is going on. I started digging and it took a while ,then a whole new world opened up for me. What stunned me was the way the whole economic system worked. The fiat currency system, the players and the way the whole game was played. I recommend that you do some digging and the thinking for your self, because what you will learn you may not want to believe had you not figured it out for your self. The economic system is rotten to the core. There are also some very greedy people who abuse the system badly.