Western Alienation

[I miss Reagan]

Good call Kimmy. I think Ontarians are the epitome of what they say they hate about Americans. They think they are the center of the universe and everyone in the world loves them. There is a good book called "Why I Hate Canadians".

[Michael Hardner]

Good call Kimmy. I think Ontarians are the epitome of what they say they hate about Americans. They think they are the center of the universe and everyone in the world loves them. There is a good book called "Why I Hate Canadians".

They don't think they're the centre of the universe, but they don't think about the outer reaches of the universe either. Kind of like Americans. I remember the American stand-up comic who said that Canadians asked him "what do Americans think about Canadians"; his response was "we don't".

I'll admit there may be some lazy thinking by some Ontarians about Albertans, but no more so than we think about Quebecers, Maritimers, or Northern Ontarians for that matter.

Hell, you even hear stereotypes about people who live in your own town, don't you ? Why get hung up on that, or use it as evidence of some kind of seething bias ?

And I don't think that the Ontario people here who said there aren't negative stereotypes about Albertans are not telling the whole story

Kimmy - I think you threw an extra negative into that sentence.

[I miss Reagan]

I don't know. I hate to generalize but.... actually nevermind I love to generalize, In my personal experience in travelling throughout the world is the most "arrogant americans" I've met are canadians from Ontario. They seem to think the world loves Canadians more than anyone else and they act like it. I hear comments from people like Justin Trudeau like "Alberta is Canada's backyard". I'm just going from personal experience.

[Michael Hardner]

I don't know. I hate to generalize but.... actually nevermind I love to generalize, In my personal experience in travelling throughout the world is the most "arrogant americans" I've met are canadians from Ontario. They seem to think the world loves Canadians more than anyone else and they act like it. I hear comments from people like Justin Trudeau like "Alberta is Canada's backyard". I'm just going from personal experience.

Yes, and my friend's cousin, who is Albertan, kicked his dog once.

If you set out with the idea Ontarians are biased, you will find plenty of evidence I'm sure.

[Black Dog]

I heard earlier in this topic a snippy little comment about Alberta being the 'poor province' and you saved us and now that we are rich we simply want to be greedy, perhaps you would like to go into more detail with this... because you seem to not know one damnable bit of Canadian history, the great depression destroyed Western Canada. We had been almost giving away our oil to the East, helping other provinces, we were the rich guys, then the depression hit us and it hit us hard. We nearly didn't survive, and did the East come to our aid after all the help we gave out when we were rich? Heck no, they sat and watched as the West died. That, I believe, was the start of Western Alienation. We recovered and through conservative reforms managed to build our province into the rich and prosperous place it now is. You Liberals cry about how Alberta is lucky and we have and you have not, guess WHY we have. Its because we reject your morally degrading principles and policies, you encouragement of laziness and political correction, your support of centralization and the destruction of individualism. We are humans, we have a right to life, and we in the West intend to live ours without losing all our hard earned cash to some bum who is too lazy to get off his couch and get a job.

Revisionist tripe. One of the ways Alberta made it through the Depression (which was made worse by the province's dependancy on a single, resoursce-based industry; I guess some people never learn) was through various programs of government intervention, including Bennett's Prairie Farm Rehabilitation program and the federal Unemployment Relief Camps. The Depression also spawned numerous Keynesian economic initiatives the Wheat Board, minimum wage and unemployment insurance.

So the idea that Alberta and the West pulled through because of hard work and gumption is pure, self-aggrandizing twaddle.

And again, I can't help but point out that , as the recent drought and BSE crisis have shown, when the going gets tough, even rugged individualist Alberta is quick to nose up to the teat.

Basicaly it boils down to the fact the West is sick of giving so much to Canada, only to have our views and beliefs trodden on by both our Liberal government and our Liberal media. All the while Liberals everywhere condemn us for our wealth, claiming the West is full of greedy conservatives who horde all the wealth... guess what, the wealth isn't just sitting in the West, the Westerners are creating the wealth. Our policies promote SURPLUS rather than deficit, they promote personal improvement, individuality, de-centralization/privatization, lower taxes, stronger economies..

We enjoy MAKING our dreams come true, we dont like sitting around screaming for people to make them for us.

Basically it boils down to Albertans being a self-absorbed bunch of twits who, through no work of their own, happen to be sitting on an economic bonanaza of black gold. They see this as justification, act like whiny teenagers who sulk and threaten to run away from home when they don't get their way. It's pathetic.

[I miss Reagan]

If you set out with the idea Ontarians are biased, you will find plenty of evidence I'm sure.

No you're right there. I think that's a great comment. I know people from Ontario who are great. But that's just the overall feeling I get from personal experience as well as the media.

[I miss Reagan]

Revisionist tripe. One of the ways Alberta made it through the Depression (which was made worse by the province's dependancy on a single, resoursce-based industry; I guess some people never learn) was through various programs of government intervention, including Bennett's Prairie Farm Rehabilitation program and the federal  Unemployment Relief Camps. The Depression also spawned numerous Keynesian economic initiatives the Wheat Board, minimum wage and unemployment insurance.

Oh thankyou! What would us battered wives do without the east.

So the idea that Alberta and the West pulled through because of hard work and gumption is pure, self-aggrandizing twaddle.

Give me a break. Do realize how much oil and is in Saskatchewan. It's still a have not province. It has to do with its NDP minded system of doing things. How is it that businesses, like West Jet, in Alberta do so well? It's not because we sit on our a$$es out here. How is it that our provincial government manages such fiscal prudence as opposed to other provinces?

And again, I can't help but point out that , as the recent drought and BSE crisis have shown, when the going gets tough, even rugged individualist Alberta is quick to nose up to the teat.

Ya right which teat is that? Our own Alberta government? Or the federal government which managed to be so undiplomatic with our southern neighbours that we'll never get the border open to beef again.

Basically it boils down to Albertans being a self-absorbed bunch of twits who, through no work of their own, happen to be sitting on an economic bonanaza of black gold. They see this as justification, act like whiny teenagers who sulk and threaten to run away from home when they don't get their way. It's pathetic.

Sounds bitter, yikes

[kimmy]

And again, I can't help but point out that , as the recent drought and BSE crisis have shown, when the going gets tough, even rugged individualist Alberta is quick to nose up to the teat.

Whether Albertans agree with it or not, Canada as a nation has decided that provinces pay in so that the federal government can assist people who need assistance. That's been the agreement, when it's Atlantic fishermen or Quebec airplane builders who need a helping hand. As it happens prairie farmers have needed a helping hand, and Canada as a nation ought to help out, just as it has when people in other parts of the country have needed a hand.

If you disagree, maybe an alternative would be that Alberta could look after its own, and stop paying in to help out others. Do you think that sounds fair? The federal government would be relieved of any obligation to help out people in Alberta, and in return Alberta would be relieved of the ongoing transfer of wealth to poorer provinces. Does that sound like a good deal? I think Albertans would take that deal. I don't think the federal government would, though.

-kimmy

[Michael Hardner]

No you're right there. I think that's a great comment. I know people from Ontario who are great. But that's just the overall feeling I get from personal experience as well as the media.

Let's all start ignoring the media more, especially television. They only seem to amplify misconceptions that are already out there.

I reluctantly voted Liberal, but I didn't believe that Harper would be sending Canadian tanks to Iraq soon as the commercials implied.

[I miss Reagan]

It's tough to ignore the media. It's my belief that this is why Canada is so anti-American (and socialist). Nevertheless on a national political scale it appears to me that the only people that seem important are Ontario and Quebec. I guess it's a number of factors that lead me to believe that Ontario considers itself the center of the universe.

[Michael Hardner]

It's tough to ignore the media. It's my belief that this is why Canada is so anti-American (and socialist). Nevertheless on a national political scale it appears to me that the only people that seem important are Ontario and Quebec. I guess it's a number of factors that lead me to believe that Ontario considers itself the center of the universe.

The differences based on province are miniscule.

If I put a Minnesotan, a Seattle resident, an Edmontonian, a Torontonian... anyway you get the picture...

If I put all of these people in a room, you wouldn't know where they were from. You'd be more apt to make assumptions about what kind of people they were based on their clothing, their age, and so on. And you'd be right.

At some point the CPC will win an election. Hopefully at that time, somebody (either the east, the west or both) will realize that the east-west divisions in this country have been played up to no good end.

[I miss Reagan]

I'm not so sure. I think there is more of a commonality between North-South regions than East-West. I think we share similar beliefs for example with those from Idaho who are mad that some beaurocrats from New York decided to introduce a non-native species of Wolf onto their ranchlands destroying their livestock so that tourists will be able to see a wolf on their drive through Yellowstone.

That was a little bit of a tangent but I'm not sure the CPC will win an election. I'm not sure it'll be able to stay together. As tolerant as Canadians seem to think they are, they are some of the most intolerant people around. Because a couple of MPs are strongly against abortion they throw the baby out with the bath water. Why does a party have to be so monochromatic? In the US you have moderates and staunch members of each party. I don't think the red-tories and the "former alliance" members will tolerate each others' views.

[Black Dog]

Give me a break. Do realize how much oil and is in Saskatchewan. It's still a have not province. It has to do with its NDP minded system of doing things. How is it that businesses, like West Jet, in Alberta do so well? It's not because we sit on our a$$es out here. How is it that our provincial government manages such fiscal prudence as opposed to other provinces?

From 1986 to 1995, the period when the Alberta government faced its toughest economic constraints, its spending on economic development (grants, tax breaks, loan guarantees, programs, and so on) exceeded

$20 billion, a sum unrivalled by any other province. In fact, far more has been spent on the "corporate welfare" than on income support for the poor (or "welfare," as it is commonly called) totalled $608 million, less than half the amount spent on the category called "industrial development."

In 1987 Alberta spent 11% above the national average on health care, and over 600% above average on industrial development. That was also when the Province began staggering into debt. In fact, in the six fiscal years from 1986/87 to 1991-91, when Alberta was running massive annual deficits, spending on industrial development exceeded the deficit in three of those years, and was close to the size of the deficit in the other three years.

...

Alberta's private subsidies are even more startling when compared to the amount collected in corporate income taxes. From 1986/87 to 1992/93, all corporate income taxes paid to the Alberta government totalled $4.64 billion (not including taxes paid by family farmers). The total cost of spending on industrial development (not including the $5.6 billion in agricultural subsidies) was $9.97 billion.

This means that in direct revenues and expenditures, the corporate sector in Alberta was a net drain on the provincial taxpayer of $5.3 billion form 1986/87 to 1992/93, the very period Alberta's debt increased so rapidly.

...

Alberta produces about 5 times as much petroleum as Saskatchewan does.

In total, the Alberta government earns roughly 8 times as much as Saskatchewan in petroleum revenues. In most years the Saskatchewan government spends between $10 million and $20 million to support this industry. In contrast, Alberta government spent anywhere from $430 million to over $700 million on the energy sector from 1989 to 1993, and much more in the years before. For an industry that provides 8 times the revenue as Saskatchewan's, Alberta is providing 20 to 70 times the subsidies!

-Taft, 1997

Ya right which teat is that? Our own Alberta government? Or the federal government which managed to be so undiplomatic with our southern neighbours that we'll never get the border open to beef again.

The feds put up more than $100 million for BSE relief alone. Meanwhile, the province (always on the look out for the little guy) coughed up $400 million, $230 million of which went to some 50 multinational packers and industrial feedlot operations.

As fo rthe border issue, that has more to do with th epower of the heavily subsidized U.S. beef lobby than it does with our federal government.

Sounds bitter, yikes

No, just sick of the most prosperous province whining about being hard done by.

Whether Albertans agree with it or not, Canada as a nation has decided that provinces pay in so that the federal government can assist people who need assistance. That's been the agreement, when it's Atlantic fishermen or Quebec airplane builders who need a helping hand. As it happens prairie farmers have needed a helping hand, and Canada as a nation ought to help out, just as it has when people in other parts of the country have needed a hand.

I don't have a problem with Canadians helping Canadians in times of trouble. What I object to is the rank hypocrisy of so many Albertans who will bitch endlessly about the feds and the rest of Canada, but are only too happy to cash their cheques.

[I miss Reagan]

What I get sick of is people like you who have this sense of entitlement. Some sort of Robinhood ideology that it's alright to steal as long as it's from someone who's rich right?

[Black Dog]

What I get sick of is people like you who have this sense of entitlement. Some sort of Robinhood ideology that it's alright to steal as long as it's from someone who's rich right?

Hardly. There's nothing wrong with recognizing that we owe much of what we have as individuals to the greater whole called society. Some individuals benefit more than others and its only reasonable to suggest they pay a fair share, especially since the economic system we have is inherently inequitable, meaning some individuals are simply incapable of making a significant contribution.

But that's kinda off topic.

[noelandmero]

Basically it boils down to Albertans being a self-absorbed bunch of twits who, through no work of their own, happen to be sitting on an economic bonanaza of black gold. They see this as justification, act like whiny teenagers who sulk and threaten to run away from home when they don't get their way. It's pathetic.

If this is an educated reply to Alberta's concerns over how her money is spent it is time for Alberta to go. This kind of comment is exactly why albertans are upset let ontario support the welfare state Canada is becoming and we Albertans will gladly go home and take our toys with us. What an ignorant statement.

[I miss Reagan]

Some individuals benefit more than others and its only reasonable to suggest they pay a fair share, especially since the economic system we have is inherently inequitable, meaning some individuals are simply incapable of making a significant contribution.

Now I see where you are coming from, way out in left field. The key word there is 'fair'. I think we probably differ quite a bit on what you and I consider 'fair share' and how that 'fair share' is aquired and handled. I guess that would make 'fair' subjective. I am personally in favour of the school of thought that promotes a hand up not a hand out. But that gets us into philosophy...

[Cartman]

Does anyone here really know what "right", "left" or "socialist" actually mean? Seriously, how many people on this forum have actually read Adam Smith, Bentham, Becarria, Ricardo, Marx and Engels, Lenin etc? Before you use words so frequently, you should first know what they mean. As it is, people are not only making gross generalizations about others, but they are also using some key political concepts in a very general and meaningless way.

[kimmy]

I don't have a problem with Canadians helping Canadians in times of trouble. What I object to is the rank hypocrisy of so many Albertans who will bitch endlessly about the feds and the rest of Canada, but are only too happy to cash their cheques.

Albertans cashing cheques for which they've provided so much of Canada's funding isn't hypocrisy.

I hate the auto insurance industry, but no matter how much I hate them, I'd still have to pay my insurance if I wanted to drive (since I don't have a car, this is purely hypothetical. ) And, having paid my insurance, I would fully expect the insurance company to pay up when I needed to make a claim.

Albertans might not be thrilled with the system, but we're stuck with it, and as long as we are doing our part (in sending huge transfer payments to other part of Canada) I don't think it's hypocrisy to expect the government to do its part.

-kimmy

[Michael Hardner]

Does anyone here really know what "right", "left" or "socialist" actually mean? Seriously, how many people on this forum have actually read Adam Smith, Bentham, Becarria, Ricardo, Marx and Engels, Lenin etc? Before you use words so frequently, you should first know what they mean. As it is, people are not only making gross generalizations about others, but they are also using some key political concepts in a very general and meaningless way. 

I agree CM. Our political parties today are the great-grandchildren of these parties. And the differences between them are far less than they were.

[I miss Reagan]

Does anyone here really know what "right", "left" or "socialist" actually mean? Seriously, how many people on this forum have actually read Adam Smith, Bentham, Becarria, Ricardo, Marx and Engels, Lenin etc? Before you use words so frequently, you should first know what they mean. As it is, people are not only making gross generalizations about others, but they are also using some key political concepts in a very general and meaningless way.

Oh jeez, not more psudo-intellectualism. Before we get into some philosophical diatribe here's a fair definition for those of us who just want to discuss politics.

Conservative= Right

Liberal=left

NDP=far left

[kimmy]

From 1986 to 1995, the period when the Alberta government faced its toughest economic constraints, its spending on economic development (grants, tax breaks, loan guarantees, programs, and so on) exceeded

$20 billion, a sum unrivalled by any other province. In fact, far more has been spent on the "corporate welfare" than on income support for the poor (or "welfare," as it is commonly called) totalled $608 million, less than half the amount spent on the category called "industrial development."

In 1987 Alberta spent 11% above the national average on health care, and over 600% above average on industrial development. That was also when the Province began staggering into debt. In fact, in the six fiscal years from 1986/87 to 1991-91, when Alberta was running massive annual deficits, spending on industrial development exceeded the deficit in three of those years, and was close to the size of the deficit in the other three years.

...

Alberta's private subsidies are even more startling when compared to the amount collected in corporate income taxes. From 1986/87 to 1992/93, all corporate income taxes paid to the Alberta government totalled $4.64 billion (not including taxes paid by family farmers). The total cost of spending on industrial development (not including the $5.6 billion in agricultural subsidies) was $9.97 billion.

This means that in direct revenues and expenditures, the corporate sector in Alberta was a net drain on the provincial taxpayer of $5.3 billion form 1986/87 to 1992/93, the very period Alberta's debt increased so rapidly.

...

Alberta produces about 5 times as much petroleum as Saskatchewan does.

In total, the Alberta government earns roughly 8 times as much as Saskatchewan in petroleum revenues. In most years the Saskatchewan government spends between $10 million and $20 million to support this industry. In contrast, Alberta government spent anywhere from $430 million to over $700 million on the energy sector from 1989 to 1993, and much more in the years before. For an industry that provides 8 times the revenue as Saskatchewan's, Alberta is providing 20 to 70 times the subsidies!

-Taft, 1997

So, what this Taft person is saying is that when times were tough, Alberta's government spent money to try to stimulate the economy?

Isn't that what they call "Keynesian economics"? Let me know if I'm wrong on that (Alberta public school education ) Governments should save money when times are good, and spend money during tough times to try to stimulate the economy, isn't that the idea?

I was pretty young at the time but I do know that Alberta's economy was not very good during that time. And I know that much of Alberta's oil production capacity was lost during the NEP years, which are just before the years "Taft" compiled these statistics about subsidies for. It looks like the Alberta government was spending money during the years after the NEP to try to restore the lost production capacity.

It seems like this Taft person is criticizing Alberta for following what many people think is a good economic strategy. The article you quoted also didn't say that all of that money went into the resource sector. Weren't you the person who was saying in another thread that governments should spend money to try to diversify the economy? It seems like you are criticizing them here for doing just that.

Also, I have to wonder if maybe Alberta's resource-rich neighbors would be more prosperous if their own governments were more aggressive in promoting those industries. Saskatchewan has lots of oil, and BC has lots of natural gas, but it isn't helping anybody if it stays underground...

-kimmy

[I miss Reagan]

Good point Kimmy. BD's arguments usually discuss production rather than actual reserves under the ground. Sask actually has plenty of petroleum to make it a have province. Interestingly in 1972 they created an act where they actually stole the lands owned by corporations and put them in the name of the crown in saskatchewan. As you can imagine this created a huge disincentive for companies to explore or invest in Saskatchewan after that. Many corporations pulled out and said we're not coming back. This and other disincentives have made NDP Saskatchewan what it is today.

[August1991]

Does anyone here really know what "right", "left" or "socialist" actually mean?

Do the Political Compass Test in the other thread for an intelligent answer.

Isn't that what they call "Keynesian economics"? Let me know if I'm wrong on that (Alberta public school education  ) Governments should save money when times are good, and spend money during tough times to try to stimulate the economy, isn't that the idea?

The idea of Keynesian economics is that when something goes wrong, governments have the wisdom and ability to solve the problem.

So, what this Taft person is saying is that when times were tough, Alberta's government spent money to try to stimulate the economy?

No, what this long quote is saying is that Albertan oil types have close friends in Edmonton.

[Cartman]

I miss Reagan, I am sorry to make your brain work so hard, but the Liberals are not "left". The NDP is not "far left". "Far left" is Marxism or do you consider communists and Marxists "super duper ultra amazingly left"? On what basis? You should not try to place inaccurate labels on people. It is just as ridiculous to refer to democratic socialists as "far left" as it is to refer to the Conservatives as "far right". I do not think you know the difference and as a result, your arguments just fall apart and are ignored.