Pliny Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 The latter figure sounds more likely to me. Baird's, Galipeau's, and Poilievre's ridings are all surely heavily populated by public servants, for starters? Well, we would have to get some figures. I don't think CPC support in the public service is very strong. The PSAC newsletter encouraged their members to vote for the party that most heavily supported social services. Obviously that isn't Harper. Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
Pliny Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 You don't seem to get it - they got a 20% cut. Doesn't that make you happy enough ? Or do you still want more ? You mean inflation is eating away at their purchasing power? Wow! 20% over ten years. I think that's significant. How do the people on fixed incomes ever manage? Well, the poor get poorer, I guess. Or do they get poorer because taxes are too low, Michael? Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
Michael Hardner Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 You mean inflation is eating away at their purchasing power? Wow! 20% over ten years. I think that's significant. How do the people on fixed incomes ever manage? Well, the poor get poorer, I guess. Or do they get poorer because taxes are too low, Michael? 1. He doesn't seem to get it. 2. I want to know at what point he will be happy. Once I know #2 I can determine whether he's thinking realistically or not. Like it or not, wage freezes are probably as far as you will get with a lot of these agreements. Taxes too low ? Too high ? I say - let's make a baseline for the services we're getting at our current costs, and start cutting costs and increasing services simultaneously. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Pliny Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 1. He doesn't seem to get it. 2. I want to know at what point he will be happy. Once I know #2 I can determine whether he's thinking realistically or not. At what point will you be happy is more the question since you are the advocate for wage increases. I don't wish to speak for him but I get that he views the value of work done as a distortion of actual value and all he wishes is the true value of the labour determine the wage as opposed to the cost of living or other social factors determining the wage. The difficulty in determining value of work done and proper compensation for it is compounded by there not being an ability to make a cost/benefit analysis in most government services. Unions always demand more, as is their right, and even in the private sector often demand more than can be afforded. A careful cost/benefit analysis could overlook a slight economic slump or future competitive disadvantage which could result in a loss sufficient to close the doors and lose all the jobs. Government employees and unions never have to face that kind of economic reality. Government revenues are either increased or diverted or borrowed to cover the cost of labour. Like it or not, wage freezes are probably as far as you will get with a lot of these agreements. That's the pity. Taxes too low ? Too high ? I say - let's make a baseline for the services we're getting at our current costs, and start cutting costs and increasing services simultaneously. But Michael, our baseline costs over ten years will rise 20% through inflation alone so if we cut costs 20% we will have gained nothing over those ten years, and increasing services sounds pricey. We have to keep inflation going or we will get....gulp....deflation. Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
MiddleClassCentrist Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) We have to keep inflation going or we will get....gulp....deflation. Heaven forbid the purchasing power of a dollar increases... Edited May 23, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Pliny Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Heaven forbid the purchasing power of a dollar increases... It means wages have to go down and government revenues will decrease. Pretty scary stuff. Quote I want to be in the class that ensures the classless society remains classless.
Michael Hardner Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 At what point will you be happy is more the question since you are the advocate for wage increases. I didn't advocate for wage increases, which is to say real wage increases. I don't wish to speak for him but I get that he views the value of work done as a distortion of actual value and all he wishes is the true value of the labour determine the wage as opposed to the cost of living or other social factors determining the wage. You don't want to speak for him, yet that's what you do. You restate his aimless vitriol against public servants in a more rational way, so as to provide training wheels to his bicycle. I'm asking what he wants. He can answer that. If it's realistic and specific, then he'll probably have an idea how to achieve it too. Or maybe it'll just be basically "I hate public servants" restated in different words over and over again. The difficulty in determining value of work done and proper compensation for it is compounded by there not being an ability to make a cost/benefit analysis in most government services. Unions always demand more, as is their right, and even in the private sector often demand more than can be afforded. A careful cost/benefit analysis could overlook a slight economic slump or future competitive disadvantage which could result in a loss sufficient to close the doors and lose all the jobs. Government employees and unions never have to face that kind of economic reality. Government revenues are either increased or diverted or borrowed to cover the cost of labour. Now that we have new media, we can demand better: we can demand details. We can demand that the government publishes detailed plans in the new medium, so that they're open for all to see. That wasn't practical on a mass scale before now. They won't do it unless we demand it. That's the pity. That's politics. The way I outlined above (publishing of plans) is reasonable and practical and is a solution to obstinate nay-saying. But Michael, our baseline costs over ten years will rise 20% through inflation alone so if we cut costs 20% we will have gained nothing over those ten years, and increasing services sounds pricey. You're incorrect. The 20% rise isn't real, since earning power will generally rise that much over time. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
CPCFTW Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 You don't seem to get it - they got a 20% cut. Doesn't that make you happy enough ? Or do you still want more ? what I'm saying is that we likely need at least a 10yr freeze on the wages of every public servant at every level of government for the value of their labour to even remotely approach their wages. The worker's revolution went too far and now it is the public service workers oppressing the rich. quote] Quote
CPCFTW Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) You're incorrect. The 20% rise isn't real, since earning power will generally rise that much over time. What about the private sector which does not have guaranteed wage increases and so has to subsidize the ever inflating wages of the public servants to their own detriment? The private sector values the labour of these people as providing an economic profit, but their wages are depressed because private enterprise has to pay high taxes to pay 40k to litter pickers and 60k to bus drivers and token collectors. Lettig unions dictate the value of public service workers is an abomination and destroys value in our society. I don't mind paying police and teachers decent salaries, (although teachers already get ridiculous vacation benefits) because it can be argued for their economic benefit to society, but there are too many useless jobs with no economic benefit or a miniscule economic value relative to their wages. Edited May 23, 2011 by CPCFTW Quote
CPCFTW Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 20 dollars per hour is BARELY a living wage even if youre single. If we pay workers much less than that then were just gonna end up subsidizing them in other ways anyhow. I wonder if the 7.5% of the labour force who are unemployed would pick up litter for 40k/yr (assuming no ei). What's so special about the ttc litter pickers. Why do these chosen ones get to rise above others in the lower classes? Do they possess elite litter picking skills? Quote
CPCFTW Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) I find it funny to hear people complaining about executive compensation in the private sector. If you're an executive in the private sector you're working 8am-8pm 6 days a week to make what you do (after earning multiple degrees and busting your ass to get up to that level). If you're an executive public servant you're making 100k+ working 930-430 5 days a week with a bachelor degree and you get a guaranteed pension for life. Edited May 23, 2011 by CPCFTW Quote
Rick Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 what I'm saying is that we likely need at least a 10yr freeze on the wages of every public servant at every level of government for the value of their labour to even remotely approach their wages. The worker's revolution went too far and now it is the public service workers oppressing the rich. quote] Most blue collar workers have already had a 10 yr wage freeze while the CEO's have been leeching off of their hard work.How many blue collared workers do you think actually have been given an annual cost of living increase in the past 10 years. Before you start slashing public servants wages how about we start with Stevie's salary, perks and that of his bloated cabinet.. Say reducing their budgets and salaries by 40% to start off... Get rid of all the piggies in the senate too... Quote “This is all about who you represent,” Mr. Dewar (NDP) said. “We’re (NDP) talking about representing the interests of working people and everyday Canadians and they [the Conservatives] are about representing the fund managers who come in and fleece our companies and our country. Voted Maple Leaf Web's 'Most Outstanding Poster' 2011
RNG Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Most blue collar workers have already had a 10 yr wage freeze while the CEO's have been leeching off of their hard work. How many blue collared workers do you think actually have been given an annual cost of living increase in the past 10 years. Before you start slashing public servants wages how about we start with Stevie's salary, perks and that of his bloated cabinet.. Say reducing their budgets and salaries by 40% to start off... Get rid of all the piggies in the senate too... Would that apply to Happy Jack and his ilk? (I've always loved the word ilk. This is the first time I've used it, I think.) Quote The government can't give anything to anyone without having first taken it from someone else.
Jack Weber Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Most blue collar workers have already had a 10 yr wage freeze while the CEO's have been leeching off of their hard work. How many blue collared workers do you think actually have been given an annual cost of living increase in the past 10 years. Before you start slashing public servants wages how about we start with Stevie's salary, perks and that of his bloated cabinet.. Say reducing their budgets and salaries by 40% to start off... Get rid of all the piggies in the senate too... It is almost impossible to get anything more than 2% over the life of a 3 year contract anymore... Most businesses are demanding 5 year contracts with backloaded money... And COLA???.....Forget about it.... Gotta pay for all that managerial staff!!!! Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Rick Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Would that apply to Happy Jack and his ilk? (I've always loved the word ilk. This is the first time I've used it, I think.) Since there are zero members of the NDP in the Senate which needs to be abolished or serving in Stevie Harpocrite's bloated cabinet, it wouldn't apply.Now if you were to say, across the board reduction in pay for all MP's by 25% to start and axing their life time pensions... I'd be supportive of that. Quote “This is all about who you represent,” Mr. Dewar (NDP) said. “We’re (NDP) talking about representing the interests of working people and everyday Canadians and they [the Conservatives] are about representing the fund managers who come in and fleece our companies and our country. Voted Maple Leaf Web's 'Most Outstanding Poster' 2011
CPCFTW Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Most blue collar workers have already had a 10 yr wage freeze while the CEO's have been leeching off of their hard work. How many blue collared workers do you think actually have been given an annual cost of living increase in the past 10 years. Before you start slashing public servants wages how about we start with Stevie's salary, perks and that of his bloated cabinet.. Say reducing their budgets and salaries by 40% to start off... Get rid of all the piggies in the senate too... I said freeze the wages of ALL public servants. I wouldn't say the prime minister is overpaid but 99% of public servants are and it would be more fair to "oppress" the 1% of public servants who earn their wages than it is to oppress the rest of Canadians so that 99% of public servants can be paid an arbitrary "living wage" they haven't earned. Quote
punked Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 I said freeze the wages of ALL public servants. I wouldn't say the prime minister is overpaid but 99% of public servants are and it would be more fair to "oppress" the 1% of public servants who earn their wages than it is to oppress the rest of Canadians so that 99% of public servants can be paid an arbitrary "living wage" they haven't earned. And why do you say that? Are they over paid for the work they do? Examples please? Or is it because you compare them to other industries? Examples please? Tell us more. Quote
MiddleClassCentrist Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) (although teachers already get ridiculous vacation benefits) Firstly, they aren't vacations. They are periods of unemployment. Teacher's aren't paid for the vacation time, they are paid per hour which is portioned out as a salary. Second, my mother gets over a month of vacation time as a bank teller and she can choose when that vacation is. Third, if you are arguing for year round schooling in some twisted way, I'm for year round schooling. However, I hope that you keep going with that ideological thinking. I want to see you start slandering fire fighters for having a job, with public money, that is 98% downtime. In addition, they can only work 3 or 4 days a week for the entire year. Edited May 23, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
CPCFTW Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 And why do you say that? Are they over paid for the work they do? Examples please? Or is it because you compare them to other industries? Examples please? Tell us more. Are you serious? Examples please? Try reading the thread. Quote
RNG Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Firstly, they aren't vacations. They are periods of unemployment. Teacher's aren't paid for the vacation time, they are paid per hour which is portioned out as a salary. Second, my mother gets over a month of vacation time as a bank teller and she can choose when that vacation is. Third, if you are arguing for year round schooling in some twisted way, I'm for year round schooling. However, I hope that you keep going with that ideological thinking. I want to see you start slandering fire fighters for having a job, with public money, that is 98% downtime. In addition, they can only work 3 or 4 days a week for the entire year. I can't find Canadian stats, but in the US, firemen and paramedics get less than half of what your average teacher gets. And I know firemen in Canada don't make as much as teachers anecdotally having both firemen and teachers as friends. So, how do you define fair? Simple servants are paid way too much. Quote The government can't give anything to anyone without having first taken it from someone else.
CPCFTW Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) Firstly, they aren't vacations. They are periods of unemployment. Teacher's aren't paid for the vacation time, they are paid per hour which is portioned out as a salary. Second, my mother gets over a month of vacation time as a bank teller and she can choose when that vacation is. Third, if you are arguing for year round schooling in some twisted way, I'm for year round schooling. Spin it however you want, teachers get paid more than the average Canadian salary for a job that most high school graduates could do, and they get 3 months of vacation. Year round schooling would be a great dea but the teacher's unions would never go for it without a 30% hike in teacher's salaries. Too bad because that would seriously help the quality of Canadian education. And are you suggesting that teachers may also be able to claim EI for these periods of "unemployment"? If that's the case, I might as well retire from my career now and get into teaching. Edited May 23, 2011 by CPCFTW Quote
punked Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 I can't find Canadian stats, but in the US, firemen and paramedics get less than half of what your average teacher gets. And I know firemen in Canada don't make as much as teachers anecdotally having both firemen and teachers as friends. So, how do you define fair? Simple servants are paid way too much. My cousins a fireman I can assure you he makes more then I do as a teacher. We were both hired in the same year. Quote
RNG Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 If that's the case, I might as well retire from my career now and get into teaching. The union environment would make you hurl. The wives of two of my friends quit teaching just because they couldn't put up with the union BS anymore. Sorry, teachers don't have a union, it's a "professional association" I believe they call it. Quote The government can't give anything to anyone without having first taken it from someone else.
punked Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Spin it however you want, teachers get paid more than the average Canadian salary for a job that most high school graduates could do, and they get 3 months of vacation. Year round schooling would be a great dea but the teacher's unions would never go for it without a 30% hike in teacher's salaries. Too bad because that would seriously help the quality of Canadian education. And are you suggesting that teachers may also be able to claim EI for these periods of "unemployment"? If that's the case, I might as well retire from my career now and get into teaching. Yep you better get into teaching. I wish you the best of luck. Remember the turn over rate is around 50%. Meaning about half of all people who go into teacher are out in the first 10 years. Must be an easy job eh? Quote
RNG Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Yep you better get into teaching. I wish you the best of luck. Remember the turn over rate is around 50%. Meaning about half of all people who go into teacher are out in the first 10 years. Must be an easy job eh? From my association with about 7 teachers, I'd say the job is easy, and rewarding if you're not a lazy simple servant, but the union bullshit and bureaucracy drives an honest person crazy. Quote The government can't give anything to anyone without having first taken it from someone else.
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