MiddleClassCentrist Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 (edited) How is the public service accountable in any way? How are they less accountable than the private sector? Edited May 22, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
MiddleClassCentrist Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 (edited) Why do public service unions even exist? I think your ideology is an example of exactly why public service workers need unions. Like minded individuals who feel that everyone working for the public service is less worthy of a paycheque to feed their family and live. Does it get out of hand? Well, lets be honest. No one forces government to make ridiculous labour deals, they just agree instead of suffering the political outcomes. I find it concerning though... everyone will slander public service employees for having secure jobs and reasonable pay and demand that public service employees get their wages slashed when times are bad. Where are these people when times are good saying that their wages should reflect the boom in the economy? The argument of "but they are paid with tax dollars" is bullisht. Everyone pays each others wage. Maybe I should go demand that the mechanic lower his wage because I pay his wage to do my oil changes... I mean, the work rate is pretty high for a simple oil change... or the accountant for my business... Maybe I should tell the manager at McDonald's to take a wage cut the next time i'm in. I pay his wage now and then and I think he is paid too much. How about we just lower everyone's wage so that we all pay less, oh wait. Edited May 22, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
CPCFTW Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 (edited) Maybe I should go demand that the mechanic lower his wage because I pay his wage to do my oil changes... I mean, the work rate is pretty high for a simple oil change... or the accountant for my business... Maybe I should tell the manager at McDonald's to take a wage cut the next time i'm in. I pay his wage now and then and I think he is paid too much. How about we just lower everyone's wage so that we all pay less, oh wait. Go ahead and demand it or change your own oil. Then the mechanic will be out of business or be forced reduce prices. People are demanding the mechanic's services at that rate. No one is demanding $20/hr litter pickers and $26/hr token collectors for the TTC other than the unions. I pay $121/mo for a TTC pass because I have to pay some guy to sleep on a chair and make 6 figures (after OT), and for high school drop outs to make 40k picking up discarded wrappers. A private company could hire a college student to do these jobs for minimum wage. Do you think that the market demanded those services at that price when cashiers in the private sector make minimum wage? Funny thing is that most cashiers are friendlier and more courteous than any TTC employee I've ever met. Why? Because they can be fired for being consistently rude. TTC employees are basically untouchable. The unions exploit a natural monopoly to hold us hostage for our money and reduce the productivity of our society. They must go. Down with public service unions!!! :angry: Edited May 22, 2011 by CPCFTW Quote
CPCFTW Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Do you really think our society is going to be improved by the governments of the day setting an example to industry that the way they should go is to screw over workers as much as possible, to give them as few benefits and as low a wage as you can possibly get away with? Do you think this type of attitude won't trickle down to you and affect what you get and how you're treated? Private companies already pay the minimum wage they can get away with without the interference of unions. If it is an unskilled job, they pay minimum wage. If they want to retain the employee because they have unique skills, they pay a wage comparable to others that possess those unique skills. I won't lose any sleep if litter pickers aren't making 40k anymore. Taxpayer money isn't charity. Quote
Battletoads Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 He's just another heart-broken Liberal who can't get over the "totally unfair" results of May 2nd. Liberal? I'm not a liberal, not by a long shot. Quote "You can lead a Conservative to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
dre Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Why do public service unions even exist? It's not like the governments are going to take advantage of workers and pocket excess profits. Public service unions exist only to extort the canadian taxpayer out of his/her hard earned money. Why are ttc token collectors and litter pickers making $20-30/hr for tgheir unskilled labour? Not only are taxpayers being extorted, jobs are being destroyed by paying ridiculous wages for subpar service. We can hire twice as many people for minimum wage to pick litter and watch people put tokens in a bucket. Or hire the same amount of people and use the savings to upgrade the subway line. Public service unions exist for the same reason as other unions. Before we had them workers were treated literally like cattle. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Why are ttc token collectors and litter pickers making $20-30/hr for tgheir unskilled labour? 20 dollars per hour is BARELY a living wage even if youre single. If we pay workers much less than that then were just gonna end up subsidizing them in other ways anyhow. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
RNG Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Liberal? I'm not a liberal, not by a long shot. Is that ever true. As much as I hate Liberals, you are worse. Quote The government can't give anything to anyone without having first taken it from someone else.
Bryan Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 (edited) Private companies can bargain and figure out what their true bottom lines are. If they can't afford it, they have the option of shutting down. Governments do not have that luxury, and unions end up just extorting more money from the taxpayers. They know that the longer they hold out, the worse it gets for the government. Edited May 22, 2011 by Bryan Quote
Bonam Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 20 dollars per hour is BARELY a living wage even if youre single. If we pay workers much less than that then were just gonna end up subsidizing them in other ways anyhow. You have an expensive definition of "living" if you can "barely" live on $20/hour while single. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Why do public service unions even exist? Is this your way of announcing to the thread that you don't know history? Institutions have a long built-in memory. This goes for corporations, governments and unions too. They are almost like humans in that respect. Germany just recently (last year?) finished World War I reparations. In the 1930s the boom and bust of unmitigated capitalism went bust in such a way that Communism was gaining hold. Since we live in an open society, we adjusted to create a new system. Totalitarian Communism eventually died out because it couldn't adjust. Unions fought hard and bloody battles to protect their rights, and they remember. There you go. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
CPCFTW Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 20 dollars per hour is BARELY a living wage even if youre single. If we pay workers much less than that then were just gonna end up subsidizing them in other ways anyhow. Hahahahaha you can't be serious. $20/hr is around 40k. Wtf is "living" to you? Quote
Smallc Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Hahahahaha you can't be serious. $20/hr is around 40k. Wtf is "living" to you? Living on 40k isn't all that easy in Winnipeg, never mind Toronto. Quote
TimG Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 (edited) 20 dollars per hour is BARELY a living wage even if youre single. If we pay workers much less than that then were just gonna end up subsidizing them in other ways anyhow.What I find most ironic is the labour movement's demands for a 'living wage' requires that their lifestyle be paid for on the backs of non-union workers either in the country or abroad. If everyone got a 'living wage' the cost of living would rise to the point where the wage was no longer a 'living wage' and the labour movement would have to up their demands again. Edited May 22, 2011 by TimG Quote
Rick Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Go ahead and demand it or change your own oil. Then the mechanic will be out of business or be forced reduce prices. People are demanding the mechanic's services at that rate. No one is demanding $20/hr litter pickers and $26/hr token collectors for the TTC other than the unions. I pay $121/mo for a TTC pass because I have to pay some guy to sleep on a chair and make 6 figures (after OT), and for high school drop outs to make 40k picking up discarded wrappers. A private company could hire a college student to do these jobs for minimum wage. Do you think that the market demanded those services at that price when cashiers in the private sector make minimum wage? Funny thing is that most cashiers are friendlier and more courteous than any TTC employee I've ever met. Why? Because they can be fired for being consistently rude. TTC employees are basically untouchable. The unions exploit a natural monopoly to hold us hostage for our money and reduce the productivity of our society. They must go. Down with public service unions!!! :angry: Well if we could take out 60% of this country's bloated CEO's and upper management who pay slave labour wages to the workers who actually keep this country working, this country would be a much better place.How about a salary cap for all those in management positions. All in all, this story sounds much like Mike Harrris's failed bs redux. Either that or the next step in Tony Gazebo Clement's strategy will be to take a play out of his neo-con buddies in Wisconsin's playbook. Quote “This is all about who you represent,” Mr. Dewar (NDP) said. “We’re (NDP) talking about representing the interests of working people and everyday Canadians and they [the Conservatives] are about representing the fund managers who come in and fleece our companies and our country. Voted Maple Leaf Web's 'Most Outstanding Poster' 2011
Rick Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Living on 40k isn't all that easy in Winnipeg, never mind Toronto. And forget about trying to do that in Vancouver. It'd be impossible where 75% of income goes to pay for basic living accommodations..http://ca.news.yahoo.com/home-ownership-harder-first-quarter-prices-rise-mortgage-090123396.html Quote “This is all about who you represent,” Mr. Dewar (NDP) said. “We’re (NDP) talking about representing the interests of working people and everyday Canadians and they [the Conservatives] are about representing the fund managers who come in and fleece our companies and our country. Voted Maple Leaf Web's 'Most Outstanding Poster' 2011
CPCFTW Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Lmao I can't believe you guys are trying to defend litter pickers making 40k off the hard work of people who really contribute to the economy. If you are picking litter for a living then you shouldn't be making a "living wage" let alone 40k. And what relevance does the vancouver cost of living for homeowners have? If you are picking litter for a living, don't buy a home in one of the most expensive places in the world to do so. You guys need to get out into the real world. Quote
Scotty Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Lmao I can't believe you guys are trying to defend litter pickers making 40k off the hard work of people who really contribute to the economy. If you are picking litter for a living then you shouldn't be making a "living wage" let alone 40k. And what relevance does the vancouver cost of living for homeowners have? If you are picking litter for a living, don't buy a home in one of the most expensive places in the world to do so. You guys need to get out into the real world. You appear to be operating under the impression some substantial portion of the public sector is concerned with 'litter'. I can assure you that the majority are doing a considerably more complex job. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
CPCFTW Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 You appear to be operating under the impression some substantial portion of the public sector is concerned with 'litter'. I can assure you that the majority are doing a considerably more complex job. Oh right like sitting in a chair making sure people put the token in the right slot. I'm talking about ttc workers right now. Don't get me started on other public service jobs. The starting wage in the federal govt is like 45k. Work 30 yrs at 45k as an office admin reading emails and organizing bake sales, with a 2% increase per year for inflation you are making 81k. Then get a promotion and work 5 more yrs at 110k, and you get a lifelong pension of over 70k. Thanks for all your hard work organizing bake sales and telling us about your kids soccer games.quote] Quote
Michael Hardner Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Oh right like sitting in a chair making sure people put the token in the right slot. I'm talking about ttc workers right now. Don't get me started on other public service jobs. The starting wage in the federal govt is like 45k. Work 30 yrs at 45k as an office admin reading emails and organizing bake sales, with a 2% increase per year for inflation you are making 81k. 81K which has pretty much the same buying power as that 45K did 30 years ago. Then get a promotion and work 5 more yrs at 110k, and you get a lifelong pension of over 70k. Thanks for all your hard work organizing bake sales and telling us about your kids soccer games.quote] You're not really engaging in serious discussion with that example. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Tilter Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 (edited) 20 dollars per hour is BARELY a living wage even if youre single. If we pay workers much less than that then were just gonna end up subsidizing them in other ways anyhow. Public unions should NEVER be able to strike, the pay raises are not automatic in the private sector and should NOT exist--- anywhere. Edited May 22, 2011 by Tilter Quote
Michael Hardner Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Public unions should NEVER be able to strike, the pay raises are not automatic in the private sector and should NOT exist--- anywhere. I doubt that PM Harper is planning to eliminate the right to strike. If that's true, then it's likely not going to happen anytime soon. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
MiddleClassCentrist Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) Public unions should NEVER be able to strike, the pay raises are not automatic in the private sector and should NOT exist--- anywhere. Adjusting for inflation is not a pay raise. Government and corporations pretty much mandates that there be inflation. If your pay does not follow inflation, you are getting a pay cut as corporations and government ensure that inflation continues. For the longest time, I remember my father didn't get a raise for almost 10 years as a teacher. That would be unheard of in the private sector. if you didn't get a raise from 2000-2010, that's cut of over 20% in what you can actually afford. Edited May 23, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
CPCFTW Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Adjusting for inflation is not a pay raise. Government and corporations pretty much mandates that there be inflation. If your pay does not follow inflation, you are getting a pay cut as corporations and government ensure that inflation continues. For the longest time, I remember my father didn't get a raise for almost 10 years as a teacher. That would be unheard of in the private sector. if you didn't get a raise from 2000-2010, that's cut of over 20% in what you can actually afford. Boohoo your father was stuck making 60k with 3 months vacation for telling kids to read a textbook. Rise up against the man! Quote
Michael Hardner Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Boohoo your father was stuck making 60k with 3 months vacation for telling kids to read a textbook. Rise up against the man! You don't seem to get it - they got a 20% cut. Doesn't that make you happy enough ? Or do you still want more ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
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