"SOVEREIGNTY WILL BE DONE IN QUEBEC!"

[August1991]

Les Québécois sont prêt à tout pour du changement mais, ne savent pas où donner de la tête.

J'y ai pensé aussi. Les moutons sans berger.

Par contre, j'admets leur bon sens. Benz, fais confiance.

----

Benz, you are remarkably honest. For other posters here, Google translate that text or much better, read it in the original because you can.

Edited May 18, 2011 by August1991

[TimG]

Wrong and you know it. Meech concept came from the federalist Bourassa.

What do that have to do with it? Quebec politicians are not going to get want they demand because most their demands are too selfish and unreasonable. The question for the rest of the country is how to above the heads of Quebec politicians and speak directly to the Quebec people. My belief is the majority of Quebequers really don't give a damn about all of the stuff the political class gets exercised about.

You call me a liar, yet you can't prove it.

I did not call you liar. I said you would find a way to reject any compromise because you have shown no interest in compromise. Your position is give me everything I want or we sepearate. No give and take. No discussion. Just "gimme what I want". People like you will never accept a politically possible compromise.

Find one post, among those I did in this forum that could support what you are saying. We don't want your money.

Example: the federal goverment, like any private organization, offers a scholarship to students. Quebec screams about intrusion into provincial affairs which is nonsense because private corporations can offer scholarships - why can't the feds? The answer is money. Quebec government wants as much as possible and does not care whether it is reasonable. They simply demand it because they think they can.

Then tell me how our proposal is wrong for the rest of the country so we can have a clue on what is so bad about it.

I have already told you. Opting out with compensation means there is no accountability to the taxpayer because the level of government collecting the taxes is not spending it. If Quebec does not want to participate it should be allowed but no automatical right to compensation. The veto is a non-starter because it would make the constitution impossible to change. That is bad for the country.

In any case, what it comes down to is you cannot justify your demands as something Quebec needs. The powers that Quebec needs to protect its uniqueness it already has.

[Smallc]

Great hydroelectric. Amazing mineral wealth. But abject corruption et al. So they keep taking my money.

You don't even know what you're talking about. Neither or those things provindes Quebec withe ven half the money that oil and gas does to Alberta. That's what it's really about, but Albertans have such trouble admitting it.

[Smallc]

Huh?

If Quebec independence scares people, the scared people left years ago.

Ummm....no. They just aren't worried about it right now.

[bloodyminded]

Fine you can secede, but you'll have to leave Gatineau and Montreal to Canada since they voted strongly against secession:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quebecref.PNG

They are close enough to the borders of Ontario that it will be no problem to redraw borders. They should have the right to self-determination too right?

Oh and lets not forget the cree nation that voted 95% in favour of staying in Canada.

I didn't realize it was that high, but I knew it was an overwhelming majority who vocally wished to remain.

The fact that they're broadly not considered...well, considered at all...speaks volumes.

[Benz]

What do that have to do with it?

You thought the demands were coming from the sovereignist. It's from all the Québécois.

Quebec politicians are not going to get want they demand because most their demands are too selfish and unreasonable.

That is again a free accusation. EXPLAIN! What is so selfish and unreasonable?

The question for the rest of the country is how to above the heads of Quebec politicians and speak directly to the Quebec people. My belief is the majority of Quebequers really don't give a damn about all of the stuff the political class gets exercised about.

Wow! So the Québécois don't know what they are doing eh? They voted Bloc and now give a chance to the first federalist party that call a change to the constitution according to Meech-like. The Québécois could have vote Liberals or be in the power by voting conservatives, two parties that do not care about it. It shows you how much you are wrong, so wrong. Stop running away from the reality. The whole Québec wishes it and you gonna have to reject everyone if you don't change your mind.

I did not call you liar. I said you would find a way to reject any compromise because you have shown no interest in compromise. Your position is give me everything I want or we sepearate. No give and take. No discussion. Just "gimme what I want". People like you will never accept a politically possible compromise.

I'm not asking much. I am asking the minimum. We are not selling a used car where I have to put a higher price than the one I want, so I can lower it after word and you have a feeling that you are a good negociator. Actually, I did some compromises. If you don't want to decentralize as much as we would like too, we can put in an Opt Out. Nooo, I'm on the evil side, therefore, I can't have good faith. Stop doing free acusations. Prove it!

Example: the federal goverment, like any private organization, offers a scholarship to students. Quebec screams about intrusion into provincial affairs which is nonsense because private corporations can offer scholarships - why can't the feds? The answer is money. Quebec government wants as much as possible and does not care whether it is reasonable. They simply demand it because they think they can.

Wrong! The federal took the money from us by taxation. It's not the same thing at all. The private organizations took the money from their profits and they invest what they want into scholarship for marketing purpose or enterprise's philosophy. I was forced to give my money to Ottawa, while those organizations had money because I choosed to by buying their products or services.

I have already told you. Opting out with compensation means there is no accountability to the taxpayer because the level of government collecting the taxes is not spending it.

That is a beleif. I do not agree with you. However I beleive Ottawa should not take that much money from us and the province should.

If Quebec does not want to participate it should be allowed but no automatical right to compensation.

It's our money.

The veto is a non-starter because it would make the constitution impossible to change. That is bad for the country.

Why? Do you think PEI or any other english provinces won't have a good intention? Or Québec will keeps on blocking everything and whine afterward that the english canada does not accept what Québec wants? Or it is just impossible that the french and the english get along and agree on something? What is it that the Europeans can do and you can't.

In any case, what it comes down to is you cannot justify your demands as something Quebec needs. The powers that Quebec needs to protect its uniqueness it already has.

No and I proved it to you. One example among others, the place of religion that allows a kid to go into public school with a religious weapon. For us, it is outrageous. Québec, as a simple province, actually has no say on those things into your constitution.

[Benz]

I didn't realize it was that high, but I knew it was an overwhelming majority who vocally wished to remain.

The fact that they're broadly not considered...well, considered at all...speaks volumes.

Because gatineau prefers that Québec stays in Canada, doesn't mean they would reject the choice of the Québécois if they vote yes. Gatineau is Québécois in first place.

[Bryan]

Quebec the province is Canada. If the Quebecois wish to leave Canada, I encourage them to hop on a plane.

I'm not much of a hawk. I generally have disdain for most wars, and I don't even own any guns. I will, however, take up arms in a heartbeat against anyone who attempts to carve off a piece of this country.

[TimG]

You thought the demands were coming from the sovereignist. It's from all the Québécois.

Sovereignists are the only ones threatening to break up the country if they don't get their demands. Do you really think that Charest would vote to seperate simply because Quebec's 'traditional demands' are ignored? For federalists it is nothing but political posturing.

Wrong! The federal took the money from us by taxation. It's not the same thing at all.

We live in a federation. The federal government is entitled to raise taxes. These taxes belong to the federal government and the provincial government has no claim on them. i.e. they are not YOUR (meaning the provincial government of Quebec). They are federal government taxes that the federal goverment is entitled to spend in ways it see fit provided it repects the consitutional seperation of powers. The constitution does NOT give provinces the exclusive right to hand out scholarships. The constitution does give Quebec control over the administration of eduction.

It's our money.

It is your federal government.

No and I proved it to you. One example among others, the place of religion that allows a kid to go into public school with a religious weapon. For us, it is outrageous. Québec, as a simple province, actually has no say on those things into your constitution.

Then use the not withstanding clause if this issue is so damned important to Quebequers. The fact is Quebec has all the power it needs. It only needs to choose to use it.

[Benz]

Sovereignists are the only ones threatening to break up the country if they don't get their demands. Do you really think that Charest would vote to seperate simply because Quebec's 'traditional demands' are ignored? For federalists it is nothing but political posturing.

They keep on failing, so the Québécois will trust the sovereignist's method. The federalist way just don't work out and you are proving it.

We live in a federation. The federal government is entitled to raise taxes. These taxes belong to the federal government and the provincial government has no claim on them.

We totally desagree on that. The power of the federal to spend on anything is too high and spread on too many areas where they do not belong.

i.e. they are not YOUR (meaning the provincial government of Quebec)

They are mine, meaning the people of Québec. Contrary to you, we belong to Québec in first place. While for you, your province is just a lower administration. The concept is different, but both concepts are good. It just depend on how you beleive the management is better off. We do not agree on that. The Meech solution is a hybrid that allows both depending on what you prefer.

They are federal government taxes that the federal goverment is entitled to spend in ways it see fit provided it repects the consitutional seperation of powers. The constitution does NOT give provinces the exclusive right to hand out scholarships. The constitution does give Quebec control over the administration of eduction.

Public Scholarship belong to education, therefore, to the provinces. The constitution allows the federal to play everywhere the federal wants to. Something we are VERY opposed in Québec. I respect that you like it that way, respect also our way.

Then use the not withstanding clause if this issue is so damned important to Quebequers. The fact is Quebec has all the power it needs. It only needs to choose to use it.

What difference does it make concerning that program? In the actual system, the federal does not have to compensate a province that refuses the program, even if it uses the not withstanding clause. Our money will be spent anywhere but here. We lose anyway. The system is screwed up. We need to settle and agree on what the federal can and cannot do.

If not, then Québec no longer belong in Canada.

[cybercoma]

Would love to see Quebec carved up to end this nonsense. First the Inuit lands can secede into Nunavut, then the Cree nation can form another province, while Montreal and Gatineau can be absorbed into Ontario. That would leave Quebec a nice weiner shaped passage along the St. Lawrence for all the weiner Francophones to collect and dream of being Europeans together.

This is the third or fourth time someone has said this. The rest of Canada has not allowed the First Nations to secede, nor cities with unique culural makeups like the Asian suburbs of Vancouver and Toronto. There's no reason to believe that asymmetry, sovereignty association or full independence would be any different in Quebec.

[cybercoma]

Benz, Québec ne sera jamais un pays indépendant, malgré ce que Parizeau et les autres racontent.

In Berthier, Quebec voters chose Vegas! Quelle farce.

----

Benz, depuis le 2 mai, le gouvernement du Québec, et la société québecoise, sont actuellement à leur plus faible, leur plus vulnérable. Et il me semble que les Québécois ne s'en rendent même pas compte. Triste.

I don't know that Quebec is at its weakest. We haven't even seen these young MPs perform yet and that weakened position hinges on the arguments that these "kids" will be useless. Quebec may actually be in one of the strongest positions it has ever been, since their MPs are the majority of the official opposition now.

[Evening Star]

This is the third or fourth time someone has said this. The rest of Canada has not allowed the First Nations to secede, nor cities with unique culural makeups like the Asian suburbs of Vancouver and Toronto.

They have not shown the desire to do so. I'm sure that if Nunavut voted to secede, we would not stand in their way.

[fellowtraveller]

We do not want your money

Then let us hear , as a central plank in Madame Marois appeal to Quebec before the enxt election, that she will refuse to accept the $8 billion per annum in equalization money, starting immediately. Before that, let's hear you agree that would be an excellent start to nationhood- stop taking food from the hand of your oppressor.

And Benz, while you are in pondering mode, please educate us on a central puzzle: I am entirely willing to concede that Canada is divisible, that if a majority of Qubecois wish to form a sovereign nation they have that right. Now you confirm that as Canada is divisible, so must be Quebec. Or, explain why not.

Unless you intend to be a fascist, racist regime, surely you must grant the same options to First Nations people as you claim for yourselves?

[Tilter]

Benz, on 18 May 2011 - 05:30 AM, said:

You thought the demands were coming from the sovereignist. It's from all the Québécois.

And that is the truth. The PROVINCE of Quebec has had referendums and the answer has been NON, even when the P'quists had the criminality to leave off whole districts of Anti-Separation voters, the answer was still the same. The ordinary Quebec'r, even after all the lies the PQ tells them, still know that the PROVINCE of Quebec would be bankrupt (or even more bankrupt) if the dole from the ROC was stopped and the hundreds of thousands of Hull area residents we thrown out of work because Canada would not hire aliens to work in the Canadian government. I think we should have a cross-Canada referendum to answer what Canadians think about throwing Quebec out of Canada. The "ANTI" vote would be mostly from Quebec.

Actually, I believe that SOVEREIGNTY Is ALREADY DONE IN QUEBEC- THEY DON"T WANT IT

Edited May 18, 2011 by Tilter

[g_bambino]

What difference does it make concerning that program? In the actual system, the federal does not have to compensate a province that refuses the program, even if it uses the not withstanding clause.

What does that program matter? Canadians pay taxes to the federal treasury. If the federal Crown-in-Council or Crown-in-Parliament (i.e. through the democratic process) decides to spend it's tax dollars a certain way, it is entitled to do so. It will be accountable to the national electorate (which includes voters in Quebec) for how the money is spent.

You rave about the EU and espouse it as an organisation that should be replicated here between Canada and an independent Quebec. Do you think Europeans don't pay tax to the EU? Why do you think Germans are so fed up with their money being used to bail out places like Ireland, Greece, and Portugal?

Perhaps people would take you more seriously if you didn't project such a naïve concept of the world, Benz.

[c/e]

Edited May 18, 2011 by g_bambino

[CPCFTW]

This is the third or fourth time someone has said this. The rest of Canada has not allowed the First Nations to secede, nor cities with unique culural makeups like the Asian suburbs of Vancouver and Toronto. There's no reason to believe that asymmetry, sovereignty association or full independence would be any different in Quebec.

I'm not talking about the right to secede, I'm talking about the right to NOT secede. That land was granted to the Cree nation, they have the right to decide if they want to be a part of a joke nation like Quebec or a part of Canada.

If the people of Montreal and Gatineau don't want to be a part of Quebec, then Canada won't turn its back on its countrymen because some 2-3 million European wannabes in Quebec City and rural farmers on the East coast voted to create their own country.

[Benz]

Then let us hear , as a central plank in Madame Marois appeal to Quebec before the enxt election, that she will refuse to accept the $8 billion per annum in equalization money, starting immediately. Before that, let's hear you agree that would be an excellent start to nationhood- stop taking food from the hand of your oppressor.

Wait a minute... you can't stop the equalization and still use the other federal programs and still collect our money all at once. As long as you collect our money, we benefit from the programs. Either we stop everything, or we don't stop any. Stop the nuclear program, stop the funding of oil industry, don't support the lower churchill project in NFLD and so on. You may lie to yourself but we don't swallow your lies.

And Benz, while you are in pondering mode, please educate us on a central puzzle: I am entirely willing to concede that Canada is divisible, that if a majority of Qubecois wish to form a sovereign nation they have that right. Now you confirm that as Canada is divisible, so must be Quebec. Or, explain why not.

Québec is an entity and is not dividable just as well as the other provinces. Ottawa can't split Ontario in two without the approval of Ontario. Canada is rather a union of nations and this is why it can be split. The countries of this world do not try to take some lands of other countries just because there are small groups from their own culture in the neighbor's land. France doesn't try to merge the french part of Belgium. Nederland doesn't try to merge the dutch part of Belgium. Germany doesn't try to merge the german part of Switzerland. It is pointless to start wars for that. The only one so far doing such things is China. Nobody wants to start a war with that dragon, so they tolerate it. It's the same thing in Canada. Québec can't merge the french part of NB, nor the ROC with the small english part of Quebec. It's not forbidden for both of them to negociate an exchange tho but, I doubt very much it would happen. No matter what you think, Québec is a nation, Harper recognized it even if it is not exactly what he wanted to do, the rest of the world acknowledge it. The english part of Québec is not a nation of its own, it's a minority from the canadian nation. If you think otherwise, then please inform me where he the government of the anglo Quebecers. I am not making those rules, this is how the world works out.

Unless you intend to be a fascist, racist regime, surely you must grant the same options to First Nations people as you claim for yourselves?

You don't know what you are talking about regarding the natives. You don't even recognize them as nations. Only on a individual basis. Therefore, they can't even split from anyone in Canada. Neverthenless, we don't use that argument. We rather choose the path of mutual interests. Since 2002, we are making very good deals with them and we are the first one to recognize them, nation to nation. Something you were always opposed to. Until you get a better clue of what the natives are and want to, it is pointless to discuss about it. You think the natices can choose to go away from Québec and be a sovereign nation? Ok! Then why don't you do it right now. Recognize them as sovereign nation and you'll see what happen.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Benz

[Benz]

What does that program matter? Canadians pay taxes to the federal treasury. If the federal Crown-in-Council or Crown-in-Parliament (i.e. through the democratic process) decides to spend it's tax dollars a certain way, it is entitled to do so. It will be accountable to the national electorate (which includes voters in Quebec) for how the money is spent.

You rave about the EU and espouse it as an organisation that should be replicated here between Canada and an independent Quebec. Do you think Europeans don't pay tax to the EU? Why do you think Germans are so fed up with their money being used to bail out places like Ireland, Greece, and Portugal?

Perhaps people would take you more seriously if you didn't project such a naïve concept of the world, Benz.

[c/e]

Can you stop being lame? Of course the Québécois pay taxes to the federal, but the Québécois do not agree on what roles the federal should play. You think the federal can play everywhere it wants to. We are totally oppose to that. How many times do I have to repeat it so you can figure something.

I feel I am explaining the concept of democracy to a donkey.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Benz

[g_bambino]

You think the federal can play everywhere it wants to.

I do? News to me. Can't imagine why I'd think that when I know it would be unconstitutional for the federal government to do such a thing.

Regardless, it is up to the federal government and parliament, not the provinces, to decide how federal taxes are spent. Those bodies are accountable to you as a federal voter. If you don't like the way your money is being used, write your MP, vote for a candidate from another party; in other words: exercise the democratic rights you already possess.

Further, and again: You rave about the EU and espouse it as an organisation that should be replicated here between Canada and an independent Quebec. Do you think Europeans don't pay tax to the EU? Why do you think Germans are so fed up with their money being used to bail out places like Ireland, Greece, and Portugal?

[Evening Star]

Can you stop being lame? Of course the Québécois pay taxes to the federal, but the Québécois do not agree on what roles the federal should play. You think the federal can play everywhere it wants to. We are totally oppose to that. How many times do I have to repeat it so you can figure something.

I feel I am explaining the concept of democracy to a donkey.

Actually, your grasp of democracy seems more questionable here. When you're part of a federation, you sometimes need to suck it up and accept that the federal government will use your taxes in ways that you, or even your whole region, do not agree with, if that's what the majority dictates.

There is a Constitution that lays out federal and provincial jurisdictions. If Quebec feels that the federal govt is overstepping its Constitutional bounds, they would certainly have grounds for a court case. If you think those bounds should be changed or laid out more clearly, that's one thing. However, feeling that, because you don't like what the feds do some of the time, you should be able to opt out of federal programmes and get full federal compensation without federal oversight seems totally unjustified to me.

As for the Millennium scholarship, that pretty much sums up how I see it. As for religious weapons in schools, I'm not even really opposed to your view at all. I just don't see how that issue is grounds for radical Constitutional reforms or separation. As others have noted, you could use the notwithstanding clause (as QC has already done to protect Bill 101).

Edited May 18, 2011 by Evening Star

[Shwa]

I guess you are not aware the bombs the FLQ supposely put are rather from the RCMP? It's what we learned from the Keable commission and later on the MacDonald commission.

More alter-history from the head wound of Benz:

Front de libération du Québec

From 1963 to 1970, the FLQ committed more than 200 violent actions, including bombings, bank hold-ups, kidnappings, at least three killings by FLQ bombs and two killings by gunfire

First Wave - bombings, murders

Second Wave - robberies

Third Wave - murders

Fourth Wave - robbery, murder, bombings

In 1968, after various riots within Quebec and in Europe, a new group of FLQ was formed. Within a year, this group of Felquistes had exploded 52 bombs. Rather than La Cognée, they wrote La Victoire, or Victory. The various members of the group were arrested by May 2, 1969.

Sixth Wave - bombed the stock exchange and Drapeau's house; kidnapping murder

So where in the Keable or MacDonald Commission reports does is assign the cause of the above to the RCMP?

The only think I see is a barn burning by the RCMP in 1972 and a nutcase Samson trying to plant a bomb. Where is all this evidence of secret agents?

LOFL!

[Benz]

Actually, your grasp of democracy seems more questionable here. When you're part of a federation, you sometimes need to suck it up and accept that the federal government will use your taxes in ways that you, or even your whole region, do not agree with, if that's what the majority dictates.

No. How many times do I have to repeat?

In Québec, we beleive the federal can spend only on areas that concern them. On top of that, we do not agrea with you what areas concern them. We do not accept duplications. We think differently on some matters, therefore, the federal must not spend on areas who belong to the provinces.

If you think those bounds should be changed or laid out more clearly, that's one thing.

That's precisely the problem.

However, feeling that, because you don't like what the feds do some of the time, you should be able to opt out of federal programmes and get full federal compensation without federal oversight seems totally unjustified to me.

Then explain. Because the other way around is totally unjustified to me as well. The federal cannot spend our money in our areas without our oversight.

As I already told you. For us, our mother nation is Québec and we belong to Québec first. For you, it's the other way around. You belong to Canada in first place, the provinces are just a lower administration. You vision is a top to bottom. Our vision is, the members (provinces or nations) agree on what the federal should be and the federal is limited to the boundaries the provinces have set.

We will not comply to your vision, you are not interested in our's. We need an hybrid if we want to stay together.

As for the Millennium scholarship, that pretty much sums up how I see it. As for religious weapons in schools, I'm not even really opposed to your view at all. I just don't see how that issue is grounds for radical Constitutional reforms or separation.

Because it is important for us, among other things. We do not want to seperate because this is how the english canada thinks. We want to seperate because english canada can setup those rules without our approval.

As others have noted, you could use the notwithstanding clause (as QC has already done to protect Bill 101).

As I explained, it can't work for the duplications. The only way we can do that, is by keeping for us the money we beleive that do not belong to Ottawa. Can you imagine the mess it would create? The non withstanding clause can be use for the religious thing tho.

----

Regardless, it is up to the federal government and parliament, not the provinces, to decide how federal taxes are spent.

No. I explained why to ES in this very message, just in case you lament again that I do not answer.

Further, and again: You rave about the EU and espouse it as an organisation that should be replicated here between Canada and an independent Quebec. Do you think Europeans don't pay tax to the EU? Why do you think Germans are so fed up with their money being used to bail out places like Ireland, Greece, and Portugal?

The European members all agreed on how the system must work. Every single one of them. If one is not happy now, too bad. They should have think before. They can propose a reform or simply get out of the union if their proposal is rejected.

In Canada, not all members agreed. Québec was opposed and the system has been modified anyway. Can you imagine what would happen of the EU if the whole Europe change the system without the approval of the Germans? I doubt the Germans would be as patient as we are. We proposed modofications, you rejected them. You had the opportunity to negociate with a federalist government in Québec for 3 mandates in a row and you are screwing up again and again. Don't cry when the PQ will win again in Québec.

[Benz]

The only think I see is a barn burning by the RCMP in 1972 and a nutcase Samson trying to plant a bomb. Where is all this evidence of secret agents?

LOFL!

Trudeau setup a commission to investigate on the RCMP. It's like if a criminal chooses it's jury for its own trial.

Even then, we can see that alot of illegal things have been made by the RCMP.

You never wonder why Ottawa has been so cautious toward the FLQ members after theu got arrested? Ils voulaient étouffer l'affaire. The FLQ was so infiltrated by RCMP that it was like its subdivision.

This is what your medias do not want you to know:

[Shwa]

Trudeau setup a commission to investigate on the RCMP. It's like if a criminal chooses it's jury for its own trial.

Even then, we can see that alot of illegal things have been made by the RCMP.

You never wonder why Ottawa has been so cautious toward the FLQ members after theu got arrested? Ils voulaient étouffer l'affaire. The FLQ was so infiltrated by RCMP that it was like its subdivision.

This is what your medias do not want you to know:

This is what your medias don't want you to know:

New Research Proves the FLQ Were Totally Innocent in the October Crisis