"SOVEREIGNTY WILL BE DONE IN QUEBEC!"

[Benz]

Are you suggesting Pierre Trudeau is personally responsible for the FLQ Crisis???

I guess you are not aware the bombs the FLQ supposely put are rather from the RCMP? It's what we learned from the Keable commission and later on the MacDonald commission.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Benz

[Smallc]

The Bloc has been the choice of the Québécois since 1993.

In 2011?

[jacee]

Exactly what "people" have brushed aside the "wishes" of Quebec as "meaningless and unworkable?"

I believe they might be conservative Albertans, unfortunately. We can only keep repeating over and over that they do not represent the views of all Canadians.

Edited May 17, 2011 by jacee

[Evening Star]

I guess you are not aware the bombs the FLQ supposely put are rather from the RCMP? It's what we learned from the Keable commission and later on the MacDonald commission.

WTF? The RCMP did plenty of shameful things in that time period but I've never heard this claim before and it's not supported by a quick online search. Cite?

Besides, surely you're not blaming all of the FLQ's activities from 1963-1970 on the RCMP...?

Edited May 18, 2011 by Evening Star

[g_bambino]

The Bloc is born AFTER Meech, AFTER the betrayal of 1982. The Bloc has been the choice of the Québécois since 1993. The Bloc is the response to a disfunctional federalism, not the other way around.

You missed the point.

Stop lying to yourself, don't you have some self estime?

Do you have an answer to my question yet?

[Benz]

WTF? The RCMP did plenty of shameful things in that time period but I've never heard this claim before and it's not supported by a quick online search. Cite?

Besides, surely you're not blaming all of the FLQ's activities from 1963-1970 on the RCMP...?

The kidnaping and some other stuff is by FLQ but, the bombs, it's the secret agents. The caporal Robert Samson got caught in action. Reference, the both commissions I mentionned.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Benz

[CPCFTW]

Fine you can secede, but you'll have to leave Gatineau and Montreal to Canada since they voted strongly against secession:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quebecref.PNG

They are close enough to the borders of Ontario that it will be no problem to redraw borders. They should have the right to self-determination too right?

Oh and lets not forget the cree nation that voted 95% in favour of staying in Canada.

The Grand Council of the Crees in Northern Quebec was particularly vocal in its resistance to the idea of being included in an independent Quebec. Grand Chief Matthew Coon Come issued a legal paper titled Sovereign Injustice that sought to affirm the Cree right to self-determination in keeping their territories in Canada.

On October 24, 1995 they organized their own referendum asking the question: "Do you consent, as a people, that the Government of Quebec separate the James Bay Crees and Cree traditional territory from Canada in the event of a Yes vote in the Quebec referendum?" 96.3% of the 77% of Crees who cast ballots voted to stay in Canada. The Inuit of Nunavik held a similar local vote asking "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign?", with 96% voting No.

You can keep the rest of Quebec and Quebec city and start your new utopian society of 2 million beggars. Good luck.

Edited May 18, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Benz]

Do you have an answer to my question yet?

I repeated enough. You don't like the truth so you ask again the same question pretend I'm not answering. Others here told you, I answered to your question. You don't like the answer because I'm not saying what you want to hear. This is how life goes man. when you are wrong, you must adapt.

On your side, you did not answer my questions. Because you are afraid of the answers too. You will never admit the Meech-like proposal is a good solution and yet, you can't explain why it would be wrong. Get off your imaginary world and socialize with us.

[Benz]

Fine you can secede, but you'll have to leave Gatineau and Montreal to Canada since they voted strongly against secession:

Neither Gatineau, nor Montréal want to leave Québec. They will accept the result as well as the sovereignists accepted the results of 1980 and 1995. Why would they want to leave Québec and join those who are responsible for this?... YOU! They belong to Québec and they are Québécois in first place. Something you will never understand.

They should have the right to self-determination too right?

No. Edmonton can't secede from Alberta either. Cities don't have that option. The people of Gatineau and Montréal are not a nation on their own either.

Oh and lets not forget the cree nation that voted 95% in favour of staying in Canada.

That was before the 2002 Paix des Braves.

Now for the anglos in Québec... they can't leave by their own. They are minorities in Québec as well as the other french are minorities within the ROC. If you want to exchange the english part of Québec with the french part of the ROC, I say ok but, we are the winners for sure. The anglos in Québec are concentrated in the west island of Montreal island. While the french outside Québec are spread in many places. Despite the Quebec anglos hope very hard that Québec will never leave, if it leaves, they will stay with Québec. So most of them told me so far.

Good luck.

Don't worry.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Benz

[RNG]

I repeated enough. You don't like the truth so you ask again the same question pretend I'm not answering. Others here told you, I answered to your question. You don't like the answer because I'm not saying what you want to hear. This is how life goes man. when you are wrong, you must adapt.

On your side, you did not answer my questions. Because you are afraid of the answers too. You will never admit the Meech-like proposal is a good solution and yet, you can't explain why it would be wrong. Get off your imaginary world and socialize with us.

What I want to hear is you admitting that all you want is more of my money. Bullshit. Go. But don't expect any aid or equalization or anything else. You want your "freedom" as long as I have to pay for it. Quit lying to us.

[August1991]

No I am no Quebecer. Raised as a WASP in Saskatoon. Was astounded at the age of 15 or so to actually hear real peaple actually talking to each other in French! Never heard it again either. Met my future Quebecois wife in Victoria BC (she came out there to learn English). Eventually moved to Quebec City and had children. We were together for 25 years, about half of that time split between Victoria, Saskatoon, Southern rural Ontario and Thunder Bay. The rest in Quebec city where the kids were raised. I am an Anglo through and through but my years with my wife showed me the widespread bigotry of my Anglo ilk towards Quebecers. Whereas in Quebec I experienced very little of that. It opened my eyes thats for sure.

Peter, that's a remarkable history. I applaud you for posting it here.

I think coming up with a workable solution is very very unlikely. There is nothing Canada will offer that will satisfy seperatist desires. Treating Canada as a partnership between two parties - Quebec and the ROC - will never wash in the rest of the country for nationalistic/patriotic reasons that the politicians have to take into account. Too many in English Canada will not allow it.

Mulroney figured he could roll the dice on the matter and with Meech lake and Charlottetown. The politicians made the minimum offer to meet the minimum demand (from a federalist premiere no less) and English Canada punished that good deed by destroying the Conservative party.

The best Quebec can hope for is to be one province amongst 10 (plus territories). There will be no better offer.

and that really doesn't cut it for seperatists. Thier minimum demand is not compatable with what Canada can give; Nationhood. No veto in the world is equivalent to that. Parizeau and Levesque were right; There is no other future for Quebec if you wish to remain Quebecois.

Peter, you'll have to trust me on this. Mulroney is not the only one who tried to "solve" this problem. This "problem/conversation" has a very, very long history.

[CPCFTW]

Would love to see Quebec carved up to end this nonsense. First the Inuit lands can secede into Nunavut, then the Cree nation can form another province, while Montreal and Gatineau can be absorbed into Ontario. That would leave Quebec a nice weiner shaped passage along the St. Lawrence for all the weiner Francophones to collect and dream of being Europeans together.

Edited May 18, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Benz]

What I want to hear is you admitting that all you want is more of my money. Bullshit. Go. But don't expect any aid or equalization or anything else. You want your "freedom" as long as I have to pay for it. Quit lying to us.

That's the BS you keep hearing from your politicians and medias. We do not want your money. We want a fair system or we leave. I am very clear on that and among all the conditions I have explained so far, none of them refer to giving us more money. You are just not honest.

[RNG]

That's the BS you keep hearing from your politicians and medias. We do not want your money. We want a fair system or we leave. I am very clear on that and among all the conditions I have explained so far, none of them refer to giving us more money. You are just not honest.

Fine. Then go. But each time you guys vote, you keep voting to continue stealing my money.

[g_bambino]

I'm not answering.

Because you can't. Now that you know Quebec has the veto power you said it needs, you've got nothing.

[Smallc]

Fine. Then go. But each time you guys vote, you keep voting to continue stealing my money.

No one is stealing your money. You're as wrong (I'm being very generous here) as Benz is.

[RNG]

No one is stealing your money. You're as wrong (I'm being very generous here) as Benz is.

You are so wrong.

[Smallc]

You are so wrong.

How, exactly? Quebec isn't stealing your money. Get over yourself. Quebecers are Canadians and have chosen to stay that way. As such, they are entitled to all constitutionally and legally guaranteed programs of this country.

[August1991]

I beleive that, once Québec will be sovereign, it can become a very different situation.

Benz, Québec ne sera jamais un pays indépendant, malgré ce que Parizeau et les autres racontent.

In Berthier, Quebec voters chose Vegas! Quelle farce.

----

Benz, depuis le 2 mai, le gouvernement du Québec, et la société québecoise, sont actuellement à leur plus faible, leur plus vulnérable. Et il me semble que les Québécois ne s'en rendent même pas compte. Triste.

Edited May 18, 2011 by August1991

[RNG]

How, exactly? Quebec isn't stealing your money. Get over yourself. Quebecers are Canadians and have chosen to stay that way. As such, they are entitled to all constitutionally and legally guaranteed programs of this country.

Great hydroelectric. Amazing mineral wealth. But abject corruption et al. So they keep taking my money.

Cool. They know how to play the game. It's just that me and a whole bunch of my friends aren't playing anymore. Let them go. But they ain't gettin' dick from us anymore.

[pegasus]

I am an anglo Quebecer. I live in Quebec City and I learned French and I like it here. I used to live in Montreal. But if Quebec were to separate, I would quickly pack up and leave. And I know alot of my friends back in Montreal would do the same.

But its not so much people that a separate Quebec would have to worry about, its business. Federal employees based in Quebec would lose their jobs, or some transferred. Alot of head offices would leave the province as we saw in 81. Real estate values would drop, also as we saw in 81. The implications of a separate Quebec would be enormous.

[August1991]

I am an anglo Quebecer. I live in Quebec City and I learned French and I like it here. I used to live in Montreal. But if Quebec were to separate, I would quickly pack up and leave. And I know alot of my friends back in Montreal would do the same.

Huh?

If Quebec independence scares people, the scared people left years ago. House prices in the Montreal West Island took the hit years ago, in the 1970s.

----

My point is that people like Benz and Landry and Parizeau (and Lionel Groulx and Henri Bourassa) have been arguing/advocating this idea of independendance for decades/centuries.

It won't happen.

If you need proof, just remind Benz, Landry and Parizeau that voters in Berthier-Maskinongé voted for Vegas.

Edited May 18, 2011 by August1991

[Benz]

Benz, Québec ne sera jamais un pays indépendant, malgré ce que Parizeau et les autres racontent.

In Berthier, Quebec voters chose Vegas! Quelle farce.

----

Benz, depuis le 2 mai, le gouvernement du Québec, et la société québecoise, sont actuellement à leur plus faible, leur plus vulnérable. Et il me semble que les Québécois ne s'en rendent même pas compte. Triste.

Avoir Charest comme premier ministre est effectivement une énorme faiblesse. Je suis ambivalent sur l'effet du 2 mai. Je pense que la situation au Québec est explosive plus qu'elle ne parraît. J'ai l'impression que les Québécois sont prêt à n'importe quoi afin que quelque chose se passe. Ça peut aller autant du meilleur comme du pire. Ça peut-être de donner une dernière chance au fédéralisme tout comme de plonger vers la souveraineté. C'est un sentiment fort différent de 95 et 80 où beaucoup de Québécois avaient quand même peur de perdre quelque chose. Là ils ont tellement perdu à cause des fédéralistes et du statu quo, qu'ils sont potentiellement plus prêt à voter oui malgré qu'ils sont pourtant moins au fait de ce que c'est qu'en 1995. Même chose pour la politique provinciale, la droite, la gauche, c'est devenu quasi abstrait tellement ils sont globalement insatisfait. Les Québécois peuvent se laisser influencer par le pire des opportunistes qui va jouer le populisme comme ils peuvent se lancer vers un leadership intelligent et constructif.

Ce qui m'inquiète, c'est que le PQ ne semble pas du tout assez dégourdi et que Legault va peut-être brouiller les cartes. Ce gars là est aussi pire que Charest à mon avis. Son attitude provincialiste me dégoute. Même si Charest quitte, les libéraux vont le remplacer par un aussi pire que lui. Deltell et son ADQ ne sont qu'un refuge pour plaignards droitistes. QS et ses 2 chefs? Bof... trop socialiste et prompt à dépenser sans retenues. J'ai peur qu'ils fassent du Québec ce que Bob Rae a fait à l'Ontario dans le temps.

Selon le jour, desfois je suis optimiste, desfois je suis pessimiste. Les Québécois sont prêt à tout pour du changement mais, ne savent pas où donner de la tête. Ça peut très bien mal finir.

Pour ce qui est de Berthier et de leur Ruth, il faut comprendre qu'ironiquement, le Bloc a démontré que ça ne sert pas à grand chose de voter pour eux. Oui ils défendent nos intérêts et sont les seuls à le faire mais, qu'est-ce que ça donne? Les dés sont pipés, le système est mal foutu. Les Québécois n'ont plus vraiment confiance au système fédéral. Ils ne voulaient pas se ranger du côté du pouvoir de Harper, ne voulaient pas des libéraux centralisateurs... tant qu'à voter Bloc qui va répéter ce que l'on sait déjà, que le système est injuste, ils ont voulu voter NPD juste pour voir. Même si ça veut dire foutre Ruth dans le siège de leur compté. C'est n'importe quoi mais, c'est comme ça que les Québécois perçoivent le fédéral de toute façon. j'aurais été très découragé s'ils avaient choisi le libéral ou le conservateur, ce qui à mon sens aurait été pire que de voter pour ce cône orange là... malgré tout, je ne sais trop quoi penser. Selon mon humeur du jour, ça m'encourage ou ça m'alarme.

[Benz]

Great hydroelectric. Amazing mineral wealth. But abject corruption et al. So they keep taking my money.

Cool. They know how to play the game. It's just that me and a whole bunch of my friends aren't playing anymore. Let them go. But they ain't gettin' dick from us anymore.

We never bought the Trudeau's crapt. What you think you give to Québec, you get it back on other federal programs where Québec doesn't get its share. If Québec wins something from it, it's not as big as the equalization program want you to beleive. It's worst for the maritimes even if according to the equalization, they look like they are the big winners.

That's why we don't mind to leave at all. Beleive whatever you want, we don't play your game. We don't need your money, we'll do fine with our's.

So if Québec leaves it's a win-win.

[Benz]

I am an anglo Quebecer. I live in Quebec City and I learned French and I like it here. I used to live in Montreal. But if Quebec were to separate, I would quickly pack up and leave. And I know alot of my friends back in Montreal would do the same.

But its not so much people that a separate Quebec would have to worry about, its business. Federal employees based in Quebec would lose their jobs, or some transferred. Alot of head offices would leave the province as we saw in 81. Real estate values would drop, also as we saw in 81. The implications of a separate Quebec would be enormous.

Un autre bonhomme 7 heures. Those who wanted to left, they did already. If few remains and are not happy, then good riddence.

Those with money aren't here to be generous, they are here to make money and improve their wealth. If they are doing it for mutual benefits, that's good, otherwise we don't need them. Our collective is more rich than the sum of the richest men. So if few of them refuse to make money with us just because they are emotionaly frustrated by the outcome, then good riddence too.

Since 1992, the head offices do not threat anyone of leaving because they know it doesn't work on people anymore. It's bad for their business.

If you want to have a positive impact, help your fellow anglos in the ROC to understand Québec and to accept the reality. So they can finally accept a Meech-like agreement. Otherwise, you are no use to anyone and whatever you do after a winning yes, we don't care.