game of thrones

[kimmy]

I think Ramsay saying "You're a part of me" is that his antagonistic ways have rubbed off on her. She seems pretty hard nowadays. She was the one that said Rickon was a lost cause. She was right that killing Rickon forced Jon into a full on assault when their plan was to make Ramsay attack.

Certainly that's true, and that's the deeper meaning that we the viewer can take from it. Her dispassion in noting that Rickon was as good as dead anyway, the smirk on her face as she walked away listening to Ramsay being eaten alive by his own hounds... we understand the effect he's had on her.

But did he? I don't think he realized it, actually. I think it was just something he said to taunt her one last time. "You can't kill me. I'm a part of you now." Basically "You can't erase the stuff I did to you. Even if you kill me, you'll be haunted by what I did to you for the rest of your life." From his perspective, I think that was just some final bravado. Maybe when she gave him her icy reply-- that he would be forgotten-- instead of getting all emotional and angry and screaming at him-- I think maybe then he understood that she wasn't the same girl anymore.

I think had a double meaning... from Ramsay's perspective, just some trash talk before he died... but for us the viewers, we understand the deeper meaning, in describing the effect he had on her and how she has changed.

I'm surprised Littlefinger was like Nuh Uh! don't put that Stark Banner up, Aryn banner has to go there sucker!

Well, we still don't know the price tag Sansa will pay for his help. I think he wants her tail more than he wants to try and hold the entirety of the North with 3000 soldiers with winter coming.

-k

[-1=e^ipi]

I think he wants her tail more than he wants to try and hold the entirety of the North with 3000 soldiers with winter coming.

I don't think so. I think he has higher ambitions. Like overthrowing feudalism.

[kimmy]

I don't think so. I think he has higher ambitions. Like overthrowing feudalism.

I don't think he actually hates the class system, I think he just hates that he was born into the wrong class.

-k

[-1=e^ipi]

Really? The class system is what excluded him from having a chance with Catlyn (yes she might have rejected him anyway, but he never had a chance).

In a classless system that is based on merit, a guy like Petyr could excel.

[overthere]

Certainly that's true, and that's the deeper meaning that we the viewer can take from it. Her dispassion in noting that Rickon was as good as dead anyway, the smirk on her face as she walked away listening to Ramsay being eaten alive by his own hounds... we understand the effect he's had on her.

But did he? I don't think he realized it, actually. I think it was just something he said to taunt her one last time. "You can't kill me. I'm a part of you now." Basically "You can't erase the stuff I did to you. Even if you kill me, you'll be haunted by what I did to you for the rest of your life." From his perspective, I think that was just some final bravado. Maybe when she gave him her icy reply-- that he would be forgotten-- instead of getting all emotional and angry and screaming at him-- I think maybe then he understood that she wasn't the same girl anymore.

I think had a double meaning... from Ramsay's perspective, just some trash talk before he died... but for us the viewers, we understand the deeper meaning, in describing the effect he had on her and how she has changed.

Well, we still don't know the price tag Sansa will pay for his help. I think he wants her tail more than he wants to try and hold the entirety of the North with 3000 soldiers with winter coming.

-k

I mostly agree with you here, that there is a double meaning to her smirk as she left- which I enjoyed to the soundtrack of Bolton having his face eaten in the background. It was a little hard to make out the squishy sounds over the noise of the applause in my living room.

But Ramsay was only one step in her life, albeit a very harsh one. Remember her as pubescent teen, gushing over Joffrey and crapping on her own sister? Her journey is an important one in GOT and shows her transition from a dumb tween to.... a leader. She knew that Rickon was toast no matter what, she knew they did not have enough fighters, she knew Ramsay would best Jon Snow if allowed to do his schtick. This, despite claiming not to know anything of strategy.... For me, she has gone from an annoying character to one of my favorites, and her growth is a logical progression.

As a group, the Starks are pretty formidable. Between Bran the mystic, and three warriors in Jon Snow, Sansa and Arya- they are emerging as a formidable management team. But none seem to want to be King, which leaves the field open for Dany, who does.

Only the Tyrells are close to them in quality/depth, with Loras as the noble Jon Snow clone, and Margeary a tough, smart and ambitious but pragmatic leader. I do wonder at her conversion to fundamentalism though......she may just be playing at it for now while biding her time....And Olenna is the smarts in the bunch, but might not survive insulting Cersei so thoroughly

I think perhaps Littlefinger will not live long and prosper either. His power base in Kings Landing is gonzo. His new base in the Vale rests tenuously on his link with the boy Robin Arryn, who is an erratic lunatic on his good days. Sooner or later one of the lesser Lords of the Vale will make Robin fly too, and Littlefinger won't be long in following him. Having major wood for Sansa won't get him much traction anywhere, though he bought a reprieve from her hatred by saving the day at Winterfell.

[kimmy]

But Ramsay was only one step in her life, albeit a very harsh one. Remember her as pubescent teen, gushing over Joffrey and crapping on her own sister? Her journey is an important one in GOT and shows her transition from a dumb tween to.... a leader. She knew that Rickon was toast no matter what, she knew they did not have enough fighters, she knew Ramsay would best Jon Snow if allowed to do his schtick. This, despite claiming not to know anything of strategy.... For me, she has gone from an annoying character to one of my favorites, and her growth is a logical progression.

Yeah, it seems like so long ago that they left Winterfell to move to King's Landing, and I'd forgotten what an annoying little princess she was. If you'd told me back then that the naive, gullible, starry-eyed little twit would evolve into one of my favorite characters on the show, I'd have thought you were nuts. As you mention, Ramsay was just the latest in a long series of things she has endured. He's a part of her now, but so are Joffrey, Cersei, Tyrion, and Littlefinger.

Regarding the letter she sent Littlefinger, I think the "big secret" isn't who it was sent to (everybody saw that coming) but rather what she wrote in it. I am guessing she offered her hand in marriage in exchange for his help. I think that's why she didn't tell Jon... she knew he would refuse, that he'd stupidly prefer to fight the battle with their inadequate forces than let Sansa give herself to Littlefinger in exchange for victory. In keeping with her recently demonstrated gift for reading people and reading the situation, she knew they needed Littlefinger's help, she knew what it would cost to get it, she knew Jon wouldn't accept the price, and she knew it had to be done anyway. That's my guess, anyway. Jon will flip his shit when he finds out, proving why she had to keep it secret, and it'll be too late by then anyway. Catelyn knew the price, Robb didn't get it, but Sansa does.

-k

[Boges]

Regarding the letter she sent Littlefinger, I think the "big secret" isn't who it was sent to (everybody saw that coming) but rather what she wrote in it. I am guessing she offered her hand in marriage in exchange for his help.

Someone with way to much time on their hands figured it out.

http://brobible.com/entertainment/article/what-sansas-letter-said-game-of-thrones/

[overthere]

Hmmm. Don't see a promise to marry him there.....she knows how creepy Petyr is and won't jump from the fire back into the pan.

Sansa has had a front row seat to the Big Game for several years, seems to have learned it well, and does not specify a reward. I don't see her lifting her skirt out of duty ever again. Enough of that. His 'reward' might be that he gets to keep his head after selling her to Ramsay Bolton. I wonder too about Littlefinger being out of the Vale for too long, his position there is shaky at best.

How does Jon Snow defend Winterfell now from the Lannisters/Freys? The Wildlings are decimated and he has few soldiers.

[Boges]

I suspect Littlefinger will now want Sansa to be promised to Robin Arryn, next. 3rd Husband in a few years.

Sansa does have a bit of a trump card on him though, she knows he murdered Lysa Arryn. I'm sure telling Robin how his mom really died is a good way through the Moon Door.

[kimmy]

I suspect Littlefinger will now want Sansa to be promised to Robin Arryn, next. 3rd Husband in a few years.

I'm sure he has an angle, but I can't imagine that being it.

First off, Robin is still a kid. And more importantly, his influence over that kid is Littlefinger's only real link to power. If he gives that kid to Sansa, he'll find himself in the same position with Robin and Sansa that Cersei is vis-a-vis Tommen and Margaery.

For the time being, since Robin is still a kid, Littlefinger gets to be some kind of guardian or something. But once he's old enough to marry, he's old enough to not need a guardian.

Recall that his only actual title is Lord of Harrenhal. It's a paper title, it makes him nobility, but it's only symbolic. Harrenhal is a burned-out ruin, not a power-base. Littlefinger is the Lord of a big pile of burnt slag. Being the guardian, chief advisor, big poppa, or whatever he is, to the Lord of the Vale is the one gig Littlefinger has right now that makes him a big-shot. He wouldn't give Robin to Sansa... he knows first hand how conniving and persuasive she can be... her ability to deceive the Lords of the Vale is the main reason Littlefinger's (almost) bloodless coup d'etat went off without a hitch.

Sansa does have a bit of a trump card on him though, she knows he murdered Lysa Arryn. I'm sure telling Robin how his mom really died is a good way through the Moon Door.

And that's another significant reason why I can't imagine him giving Robin to Sansa. He's not going to want her whispering in Robin's ear.

-k

[-1=e^ipi]

his influence over that kid is Littlefinger's only real link to power.

Nah, knowledge is power.

Even if he no longer had control over Robin, he would still be Lord of Harrenhall, Protector of the North, lots of money and informants working for him, good relations with Cersei, Olenna, Sansa, the Iron Bank, etc.

He wouldn't give Robin to Sansa...

Not to mention that's incest.

[-1=e^ipi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaLk3l4m7zk

Go to 2:00.

There is a cache of wildfire under the sept of balor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqBnZnW8p7U

Go to 0:30.

'The rumor is true, there is more, much more.'

I think we can infer Cersei's plan for the finale.

Edited June 23, 2016 by -1=e^ipi

[Guest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaLk3l4m7zk

Go to 2:00.

There is a cache of wildfire under the sept of balor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqBnZnW8p7U

Go to 0:30.

'The rumor is true, there is more, much more.'

I think we can infer Cersei's plan for the finale.

Wouldn't it be great if Cersei screamed "Burn them all!" and Jaime stabbed her in the back?

[Guest]

Even if he no longer had control over Robin, he would still be Lord of Harrenhall, Protector of the North, lots of money and informants working for him, good relations with Cersei, Olenna, Sansa, the Iron Bank, etc.

Petyr no longer has an income, now that his brothel has been shut down. As a burned out, ghost castle I don't think Harrenhall has an administration collecting much in the way of taxes from the local serfs. As the guardian to Robin Arryn, Littlefinger has access to the power and money of The Vale but nothing of his own. He wants Sansa for himself. Not only will it re-secure money and power in the North but he is infatuated with her. I wonder if that lust and possible need to redeem himself for being humiliated by Cat and the Stark brothers so long ago, will ultimately be his downfall.

[Boges]

I'm pretty sure Varys is on his way to Dorne to secure a friendly place for Dany to land her forces in Westeros.

BUT!!! wouldn't it be cool if he's looking for his old friend Littlefinger to broker an alliance with the Vale? I'm sure he knows that he's in charge of the Vale now. It's clear the Vale is one of the strongest fighting forces remaining in Westeros. With the Tyrell and Lannisters unlikely to ever support a Targaryen restoration the Vale would be a great house to rally to her cause.

The scenes with them together were great in the early seasons.

[overthere]

and like I said before-about 40 pages back...... the increasingly awkward finances of GOT are going to influence the direction of GOT immensely. It is inevitable in these situations: with great success in serial programming comes the need for quick closure because it cannot be sustained. I reckon programs like Fargo and True Detective are more representative examples of the future of TV. The cast changes from season to season, the writing is non-linear and does not require signing the same actors to rapidly increasing paydays.

Peter Dinklage (Tyrion Lannister), Kit Harington (Jon Snow), Lena Headey (Cersei Lannister), Emilia Clarke (Daenerys Targaryen) and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister) will all be paid north of $500,000 an episode for Season 7, which has been officially picked up, and Season 8, which is widely expected. HBO has not specified the size of the order for Season 7, but speculation has been that both Season 7 and Season 8 would be shorter than the standard for the show 10 episodes, possibly seven episodes (Season 7) and six episodes (Season 8).

http://deadline.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-cast-season-8-big-raises-salary-hbo-1201776806/

15 hours to wrap this gargantuan creation up? It hardly seems possible.

[Boges]

and like I said before-about 40 pages back...... the increasingly awkward finances of GOT are going to influence the direction of GOT immensely. It is inevitable in these situations: with great success in serial programming comes the need for quick closure because it cannot be sustained. I reckon programs like Fargo and True Detective are more representative examples of the future of TV. The cast changes from season to season, the writing is non-linear and does not require signing the same actors to rapidly increasing paydays.

http://deadline.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-cast-season-8-big-raises-salary-hbo-1201776806/

15 hours to wrap this gargantuan creation up? It hardly seems possible.

Perhaps that's why a character like Tyrion only appeared in a handful of episodes. No actor appears in them all. Less episodes, that are longer, may be a nice loophole.

I think the special effects required is a huge factor. That Siege of Mereen scene with Dragons must have cost a fortune! That was some of the best special effects I've ever seen. . . full stop. Better than most big budget movies you'll see.

Then hiring 3 separate armies and horses to do a live battle sequence, Must have been in the 10's of millions of dollars to do that sequence.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Boges

[Smallc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaLk3l4m7zk

Go to 2:00.

There is a cache of wildfire under the sept of balor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqBnZnW8p7U

Go to 0:30.

'The rumor is true, there is more, much more.'

I think we can infer Cersei's plan for the finale.

It seems to me that the mad king was well aware that winter was coming. Burn them all may very well be prophetic.

[Boges]

R+L=J Confirmed!!!!

What a freakin' purge episode.

Casualty count: Loras, Margeary and Mace Tyrell, Kevan Lannister, Lancel Lannister, The High Sparrow, King Tommen, Maestor Pycell And all relevant Freys.

I guess that's what Frey Pie meant. So Arya was the server that was flirting with Jamie I wonder why she didn't make an attempt on him too. I'm sure she's following him now that Cersei is Queen.

I wasn't expecting all relevant King's Landing Tyrell's to be taken out, I thought that they may be more aligned with the North (Margeary is tight with Sansa). But clearly Lady Olenna is on board with Team Dany.

It was interesting that Varys was on the ship at the end of the episode, meaning it's now certain that they're headed to Dorne. How could a faction of Greyjoy Navy, Unsullied and Dothraki, (No Second Sons, what a cock block for Dario) with the support of Dorne AND the Tyrell's from the Reach compete with what? the Lannisters and the Crown with now know presence in the Riverlands?

How is King's Landing going to stay together knowing the new Queen basically committed a horrific act of terrorism in her own city?

This seems set up for an easy victory for Team Dany.

As for the North, Bran will probably confirm R+L=J. I guess that means his claim is actually lessened, he's still half a Stark but not the right Stark and he's half Targaryan. But he may be an ally against Dany now

Littlefinger obviously wants Sansa to be Queen of the North, but knows that it's clearly the will of the other houses for Jon to rule. That dynamic is fascinating actually.

What's Melisandre's next movie, throw her support behind Dany?

So much to look forward to, for the next season.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Boges

[-1=e^ipi]

What's Melisandre's next movie, throw her support behind Dany?

Brotherhood without banners.

I guess I was wrong on Margery-Gendry.

Are Cersei and Euron going to make an alliance next season? They both love violence and they have common interests.

[kimmy]

R+L=J Confirmed!!!!

What a freakin' purge episode.

Casualty count: Loras, Margeary and Mace Tyrell, Kevan Lannister, Lancel Lannister, The High Sparrow, King Tommen, Maestor Pycell And all relevant Freys.

yeah, what a freaking bloodbath. I guess the one way for Cersei to claim the throne was for her to kill everybody else who had the remotest claim on it.

I guess that's what Frey Pie meant. So Arya was the server that was flirting with Jamie I wonder why she didn't make an attempt on him too. I'm sure she's following him now that Cersei is Queen.

Remember at the end of season 3, when Bran told Meera and Jojen the story of the Rat Cook? He was cursed by the gods for murdering a guest under his roof... he'd served the king a pie made with the flesh of the king's own son he'd murdered. And right after that scene, they immediately cut to a scene with Walder Frey boasting to Roose Bolton about what a success the Red Wedding was. It was clear that the Rat Cook story was allegorical to Walder Frey's atrocity... and Arya's pie was a neat little callback to that earlier story.

So many people want a piece of Cersei right now, there might not be enough Cersei to go around.

I wasn't expecting all relevant King's Landing Tyrell's to be taken out, I thought that they may be more aligned with the North (Margeary is tight with Sansa). But clearly Lady Olenna is on board with Team Dany.

I was pretty shocked that Margaery is toast... I thought she'd be around for the long haul.

It was interesting that Varys was on the ship at the end of the episode, meaning it's now certain that they're headed to Dorne. How could a faction of Greyjoy Navy, Unsullied and Dothraki, (No Second Sons, what a cock block for Dario) with the support of Dorne AND the Tyrell's from the Reach compete with what? the Lannisters and the Crown with now know presence in the Riverlands?

I also noticed some Dorne "Sun Spear" sails in Dany's fleet. Dorne seems like the most logical destination, as it's the least sailing from where they're at.

Could they be heading for Dragonstone instead? I believe there's basically been a big "For Lease" sign out front of Dragonstone ever since Stannis headed to the Wall. It's Dany's ancestral home, it's basically undefended, and it's where her ancestors first set foot in Westeros on their conquest.

As well, I think Storm's End seems to be basically vacant right now, and it's a lot closer to King's Landing than Dorne is...

Littlefinger obviously wants Sansa to be Queen of the North, but knows that it's clearly the will of the other houses for Jon to rule. That dynamic is fascinating actually.

The lords of the North have clearly aligned themselves with House Stark again (isn't Lady Mormont the cutest?)

Sansa doesn't have to be Lady of the North for Sansa to be Littlefinger's Queen. That the Starks once again rule the North should be all it takes to establish Sansa as top-of-the-line marriage material. Aside from Queen Cersei wanting her dead for the murder of King Joff, of course.

The more perplexing problem for Littlefinger is how can he claim the throne? At the moment with the Lannisters at war with basically just about everybody, they might be ripe for the picking, but once Dany shows up with by far the largest military force in the known world, Littlefinger is basically hooped.

-k

[Bonam]

As for the North, Bran will probably confirm R+L=J. I guess that means his claim is actually lessened, he's still half a Stark but not the right Stark and he's half Targaryan. But he may be an ally against Dany now

I think Jon will bend the knee to Dany, and in the process convince her that the greatest threat is the Night King, and thus set the stage for the final battle between the living and the dead.

[Bonam]

The more perplexing problem for Littlefinger is how can he claim the throne? At the moment with the Lannisters at war with basically just about everybody, they might be ripe for the picking, but once Dany shows up with by far the largest military force in the known world, Littlefinger is basically hooped.

He can claim the throne if Dany declares him King. She'll be the Empress of a worldwide empire and have multiple kings reigning over the various realms of Westeros and Essos under her.

[Bonam]

It would be just like Game of Thrones to see Dany unify basically all of Westeros and Essos as a single force, go forth with all the armies of mankind to face the undead, and lose anyway and have the white walkers overrun everything

Edited June 27, 2016 by Bonam

[Boges]

It would be just like Game of Thrones to see Dany unify basically all of Westeros and Essos as a single force, go forth with all the armies of mankind to face the undead, and lose anyway and have the white walkers overrun everything

That would be somewhat boring. I think, right now, the Brother's without Banners, North, Vale will have to deal with that, for at least the next season. Benjen/Cold Hands revealed that the wall has magic to keep the dead away. So how does the Knight's King bring the Wall down? We have no insight into that yet.

If Cersei dies, I think Arya can handle that job, I guess Jamie becomes the next King. He's not part of the King's guard anymore and all "Baratheon's" are dead except Gendry still rowing but the Queen now goes by the name Lannister so the relevance of the Baratheon name is moot. They should actually even get rid of the Stag from the the opening credits, that House is as powerful as House Bolton now and House Frey now.