game of thrones

[Boges]

Theory about next week's episode.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4nz14c/spoilers_everything_ep9_battle_of_northampton_and/

The Battle of Northampton was a battle during the War of the Roses. When Warrick of the Yorks approached the Kings lines after being denied the ability to speak to the King, he marched towards the Left Flank. At this point, Lord Grey of Ruthin had his men lay down their arms and allowed the forces to approach unopposed.

• This could be an Action Lord Manderly takes. Pulls a Mummers Farce on the Bolton forces. aka The Battle of Northamptom.

One of the Houses that have aligned with the Bolton's lay down their arms and allow the Stark army to penetrate their flank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Northampton_(1460)

But I think the more likely result is a Lord of the Rings (Twin Towers and Return of the King) scene where an army, likely the Knight's of the Vale led by Littlefinger, will swoop in and save the day.

I'm hoping something a little more creative happens.

[Guest]

Theory about next week's episode.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4nz14c/spoilers_everything_ep9_battle_of_northampton_and/

One of the Houses that have aligned with the Bolton's lay down their arms and allow the Stark army to penetrate their flank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Northampton_(1460)

But I think the more likely result is a Lord of the Rings (Twin Towers and Return of the King) scene where an army, likely the Knight's of the Vale led by Littlefinger, will swoop in and save the day.

I'm hoping something a little more creative happens.

I think your prediction of a last minute arrival is right. Though, it could be the knights of the Vale or the Tully forces. On a side note I had hoped the Blackfish would have a larger role.

Though it won't advance the plot much, I do like large battles. I'm looking forward to watching Wun Wun do some damage.

On the rumours front, according to a previous statement made by Sophie Turner, Arya will cross 3 names off of her list before the season ends.

[Guest]

Does this seem possible, or am I mental?

I've also read the Bran / Mad King theory. It's possible, but I think it's unlikely.

When King Robert asked Jaime about Aerys' last words, Jaime said "the same thing he'd been saying for days. Burn Them All!" If Bran interacted with Aerys a few days before his death, then maybe he was left just saying one phrase, like Hodor. Though, the Hodor effect linked the current living Hodor near the current physical Bran to the past, memory version of Hodor near the spiritual or dream-like Bran. I've never heard mention of Aerys in the far north. I'm not sure if that connection is necessary, but the link between the present and the past version of Hodor seemed to be important.

[-1=e^ipi]

So, regarding the Mad King, and shouting "Burn them all!"

To be honest, I've long suspected the Mad King was seeing the future, given that you need fire to beat the undead.

[-1=e^ipi]

Though it won't advance the plot much, I do like large battles. I'm looking forward to watching Wun Wun do some damage.

If Jon Snow, Davos, etc. were smart, they would ask Wun Wun to shoot projectile weapons (either throw bolders or make him a bow + arrows) and use that range/power to gain a positional advantage in order to make Ramsey's army get in an unfavourable position.

In addition, why not spend a few weeks training the wildlings for combat? They are good warriors, but they don't know how to fight in formation, etc. Not to mention they could benefit by spending time to make better fighting equipment (spear + shield tended to dominate large scale fights in history for a reason, alternatively they could probably make a lot of bows cheaply and use them to defeat well armored enemies, the English did this very effectively during the 100 year war) yet the wild lings currently are all unarmored with either a sword or axe each.

But based on the preview, and how they've acted so far in the show, they don't seem that bright. They just want to rush into the enemy without plan, with fewer numbers, with worse training, worse equipment and worse positioning. And in the preview, it looks like the wildlings are going to get owned by a shield wall phalanx style. Jon Snow clearly has a death wish.

[kimmy]

OMG! OMG! OMG!

-k

[-1=e^ipi]

I'll retract my previous claim of the series heading towards 2 powerful groups clashing (North-Vale-Riverlands-Stromlands-Reach vs Iron Islands-Dothraki-Dragons-Unsullied-etc.). If Dany has made a pact with Yara, given that Sansa has good relations with both Tyrion and Theon, such a clash is impossible.

So I guess these two groups will somehow unite and defeat the white walkers.

Not sure what will happen to the squabbling groups in the south though.

[Bonam]

I'm sad Wun Wun died

The last of the giants.

[kimmy]

We've been waiting for this for years. Stark banners flying over Winterfell again. And Ramsay getting what he had coming. I loved it so much! Watching Jon knock Ramsay on his ass and punch his face in was so satisfying... I launched out of my chair and was throwing air-punches right along with him.

The final dialogue between Sansa and Ramsay was also quite awesome:

"They're loyal beasts."

"They were! But now they're starving."

It seems to sum up the shortsightedness of his whole life strategy and management style, doesn't it?

Ramsay is right about one thing... he's a part of Sansa now. You could see it in the little smirk on her lips as she walked away, listening to him being torn apart. She's not a soft, naive girl anymore.

What happens in the North going forward? What is Littlefinger's pricetag for helping Sansa? What of the Freys and and the Tullys? What does Sansa do with the traitorous Karstarks and Umbers? In the absence of a male heir, is Sansa the Lord of Winterfell for the time being? Will the lords of the North fall in line behind House Stark again?

With House Bolton now eradicated, King Tommen isn't really obligated to honor the deal Tywin made with Roose, right? If Jon and Sansa declare that the Starks are once again the lords of the North, is King's Landing under any obligation to send troops north? Would they send troops to try to apprehend Sansa for the murder of Joffrey?

Sansa and Littlefinger both seemed quite pleased as they sat together and watched the cavalry from the Vale smash Ramsay's infantry. Perhaps they have buried the hatchet? I also enjoyed Ramsay's face as he watched the riders from the Vale arrive.

Meanwhile! The most powerful military in the known world springs into action! The Masters of Yunkai and Astapor may have miscalculated just slightly. I couldn't help giggling as Tyrion tried to soft-sell Dany on the situation. "Despite appearances..."

Dany and Yara also seemed to hit it off pretty good. Interesting chat about all four of them having rotten fathers, and the idea that they could leave the world better than they found it. Yara was able to work the girl power angle pretty good... that seemed to strike a chord with Dany. As for Yara's flirting, I think Dany is much too heterosexual for Yara, but it seemed like she was either amused or impressed by the girl's pluckiness.

"I never demand, but I'm up for anything, really." If she had balls, they'd be enormous.

-k

[Boges]

I actually believe Cersei named Littlefinger Warden of the North because they had Ramsay marry Sansa. Not knowing, of course, that Littlefinger brought her to the Bolton's. The Crown did nothing militarily to stop that.

So I'm not actually sure who "controls" the north. The plan could be to take the Riverlands from the Frey's now that the Vale is in the battle. That'll have to wait until next season. I'm sure Jon Snow and Littlefinger will clash about what happens next. And if Bran shows up soon, he'll be the heir to Winterfell over Sansa. Or maybe even Benjen/Cold Hands as the brother of Ned.

Obviously the crown is headed for a big reckoning with whatever happens with the Faith Militant. With the Dany showing up soon, anything left will have to deal with them. I'm pretty sure Dorn will play a factor.

You will have a situation where Elaria Sand, Dany and Yara will face off against Sansa. She may need an kin in Margery Tyrell who seems to be the only one playing the game properly in King's Landing. They were friendly in their time together in King's Landing.

In a show criticized for it's treatment of women. This season has proven to be very friendly to women characters achieving power.

[Guest]

I just heard that RR named Wun Wun after Phil Sims of the New York Giants. He was number 11.

[overthere]

Other than perhaps Littlefinger, is there anybody in the North with ambitions for the Iron Throne? And how does Littelefinger finagle himself into that chair?

You can see that Jamie pukes a little in his mouth any time he is around the Freys, his only remaining ally with any heft. I don't think Jamie has much stomach left for a fight against anybody. What is the point? He can see that the Lannister occupation of the Iron Throne is tenuous at best.

[Guest]

What is the point? He can see that the Lannister occupation of the Iron Throne is tenuous at best.

Jaime has never cared about legacy, thrones or power on his own, but Cersei does and he cares about her.

[Guest]

Who thinks Sansa has a baby Bolton growing inside her? Did the line "I'm part of you now" add credenceto the rumour?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Guest

[overthere]

Jaime has never cared about legacy, thrones or power on his own, but Cersei does and he cares about her.

But Cersei is increasingly on the fringes and without allies. Her position in Kings Landing is precarious, and her main force is off north at Riverrun. The Tullys loath her as does Dorne, and she has nobody in the North except the turdish Freys. Her sole remaining child is not listening to her. Margery may yet leverage Tommen and herself into a better place in the plot, but I don't see how Cersei goes with them.

[Guest]

But Cersei is increasingly on the fringes and without allies. Her position in Kings Landing is precarious, and her main force is off north at Riverrun. The Tullys loath her as does Dorne, and she has nobody in the North except the turdish Freys. Her sole remaining child is not listening to her. Margery may yet leverage Tommen and herself into a better place in the plot, but I don't see how Cersei goes with them.

I don't see things ending well for Cersei either and she may certainly drop out of the Game of Thrones once Tommen dies, as prophesied. Until she does though, I expect Jaime, will at least in part, do her bidding. Plus, I see Cersei as a character that will fight for power until the bitter end, rather than seeing the writing on the wall and retiring to Casterly Rock.

[overthere]

I don't see things ending well for Cersei either and she may certainly drop out of the Game of Thrones once Tommen dies, as prophesied. Until she does though, I expect Jaime, will at least in part, do her bidding. Plus, I see Cersei as a character that will fight for power until the bitter end, rather than seeing the writing on the wall and retiring to Casterly Rock.

I don't think she even recognizes that she is a Dead Woman Walking. Her power base is gone in Kings Landing, her main man Jaimie has no heart for any of it, and her 'allies' would welcome the opportunity to carve her heart out. Oh and lets not forget the massive debts they owe the Iron Bank.

So who is left to fight it out in Westeros? Jon Snow and Sansa don't have much ambition beyond Winterfell. The Dornish Clan, the IronBorn, the Vale fighters, the Lannisters, Tullys, Freys and whomever I have forgotten are fragmented and isolated. Looks like easy pickings for the D Day when Dany arrives with some serious firepower.

But I really think this is still all prelude, the Iron Throne is not the prize and the fight over that must be brief and penultimate. Winner the battle with the White Walkers must surely be the end gamer.

[kimmy]

Who thinks Sansa has a baby Bolton growing inside her? Did the line "I'm part of you now" add credenceto the rumour?

I can't see much point in bringing a pregnancy drama into the plot at this point.

Also, she has been out of Ramsay's clutches for some amount of time, hasn't she? While I have never been pregnant myself, I gather you start noticing symptoms fairly soon-- cramping, morning sickness, etc. And I think it's been mentioned at some point or another that the maesters have herbal abortifacients. If she were pregnant, I think that Sansa would be delighted to go to the maester to get it "taken care of", to make sure that the Bolton name really does vanish forever. She probably wouldn't even bother telling Jon she was pregnant.

I think that when he said "You can't kill me, I'm a part of you now," he was basically saying that the stuff he did to her would haunt her for the rest of her life, and that killing him wouldn't stop it... he'll be tormenting her forever. But as we saw in the end, he is a part of her now in a different sense. She'll take some of his callousness, some of his cruelty, some of his ruthlessness with her wherever she goes.

But Cersei is increasingly on the fringes and without allies. Her position in Kings Landing is precarious, and her main force is off north at Riverrun. The Tullys loath her as does Dorne, and she has nobody in the North except the turdish Freys. Her sole remaining child is not listening to her. Margery may yet leverage Tommen and herself into a better place in the plot, but I don't see how Cersei goes with them.

As a political force, I think Cersei is finished. The only link to power she has left is Tommen, and Tommen isn't hers to control anymore.

She's fighting for her very life right now, and I think we'll see her do something desperate just to escape her fate at the hands of the Faithful. As Tyrion helpfully explained in this week's exposition segment, Dany's nutbar dad had plans to blow up everything with caches of wildfire in strategic locations around King's Landing, including the Great Sept. And Qyburn may or may not have confirmed for Cersei last episode that the rumor of caches of wildfire under the city are true. It seems likely that her plans for the near term include blowing stuff up.

I don't see things ending well for Cersei either and she may certainly drop out of the Game of Thrones once Tommen dies, as prophesied. Until she does though, I expect Jaime, will at least in part, do her bidding. Plus, I see Cersei as a character that will fight for power until the bitter end, rather than seeing the writing on the wall and retiring to Casterly Rock.

At this point I am wondering if Tommen will even live long enough for the Sand Sisters to assassinate, or if Cersei will kill him by accident in the midst of saving her own hide.

-k

[Boges]

What we're discovering now that the Game of Thrones makers are writing the narrative and not George R Martin, we have a season where we're getting all payoffs for the protagonists. Meaning, no way Cersie comes out ahead here. None of the Kings Landing characters, other than perhaps Margery and Loras, are seen as protagonists. I can see a Hamlet scenario where this coming episode leads to lots of deaths of characters leaving a power vacuum in Kind's Landing.

We also have a story where we're only seeing destinations, where the books are a lot about the journey. We'd get details about Yara and Theon's journey to Mereen. What was going on with the Knights of the Vale and Little. Each house that Jon, Sansa and Thomund visited. Etc etc.

This TVfied version is more rewarding but I imagine readers aren't liking the pace.

[kimmy]

I don't think she even recognizes that she is a Dead Woman Walking. Her power base is gone in Kings Landing, her main man Jaimie has no heart for any of it, and her 'allies' would welcome the opportunity to carve her heart out. Oh and lets not forget the massive debts they owe the Iron Bank.

So who is left to fight it out in Westeros? Jon Snow and Sansa don't have much ambition beyond Winterfell. The Dornish Clan, the IronBorn, the Vale fighters, the Lannisters, Tullys, Freys and whomever I have forgotten are fragmented and isolated. Looks like easy pickings for the D Day when Dany arrives with some serious firepower.

But I really think this is still all prelude, the Iron Throne is not the prize and the fight over that must be brief and penultimate. Winner the battle with the White Walkers must surely be the end gamer.

At this point, I think that Dorn, the Vale, and Highgarden are the only military powers left that aren't completely ravaged by war. Given that Tommen is already in Margaery's pocket, I think the Tyrells are the obvious horse to bet on there... they're far wealthier and their territory is much larger than the other two. But I doubt Lady Olenna and Littlefinger would fight open war against each other anyway.

BTW, I suspect that if Tommen were to die unexpectedly in the near future, Margaery would declare to everyone that she is carrying the rightful heir to the throne in her belly, and appoint herself Queen Regent until he comes of age.

If Dany arrives in Westeros with her military force-- which is much larger than all of the remaining armies in Westeros combined, even excluding the dragons-- I can't imagine Littlefinger being dumb enough to stand against her. Sansa would probably be happy to bend her knee... she has no interest in the Iron Throne or anything in the south. Considering her history with Tyrion and Theon, she'd happily support Dany as the new Queen, especially if Dany were to kill some Lannisters en route to claiming the throne.

Lady Olenna would be in a tough spot... she's not dumb enough to think House Tyrell could stand against Dany, but at the same time she'd be obligated to stand up for her grand-daughter and her husband's claim to the throne. At this point Dany's force is so overwhelming that basically the whole 'game of thrones' is over if she gets her transportation problems sorted out.

-k

[Boges]

I think Ramsay saying "You're a part of me" is that his antagonistic ways have rubbed off on her. She seems pretty hard nowadays. She was the one that said Rickon was a lost cause. She was right that killing Rickon forced Jon into a full on assault when their plan was to make Ramsay attack.

BTW why do all battles in Fantasy shows have to be this, losing until re-enforcements come. Every battle in Lord of the Rings was like that. So was the battle of the Blackwater. The Battle at the Wall wasn't initially, but they were still domed to lose until Stannis' army showed up. Is that the only plot device available?

Like Sansa was with Littlefinger. So she must have known when he was set to arrive. If I was the Wildlings and other Houses, I'd be pissed. Gee thanks for saving us Sansa, but you think you could have whipped out that secret army you were assembling a little earlier? Now Littlefinger and the Vale pretty much control the North. It's not like the remaining forces have any ability to fight them. I'm surprised Littlefinger was like Nuh Uh! don't put that Stark Banner up, Aryn banner has to go there sucker!

Edited June 21, 2016 by Boges

[kimmy]

What we're discovering now that the Game of Thrones makers are writing the narrative and not George R Martin, we have a season where we're getting all payoffs for the protagonists.

(...)

This TVfied version is more rewarding but I imagine readers aren't liking the pace.

With only 10 hours per season and a whole lot of story to tell, some of the finer details get glossed over or omitted entirely. It's an unfortunate limitation of the format.

As for grumbling from some quarters that this season has been "predictable" and that they are pandering to viewers who want happy endings, or whatever, or that the show has lost its way by no longer shocking us with unexpected twists and shocking deaths... well, I dunno what people were hoping for.

I mean, with just two more seasons to go, they have to start drawing this thing to a close-- bringing characters together, wrapping storylines up, drawing things towards an inevitable conclusion, which seems certain to be a battle between the living and the dead.

And if people feel that the Starks retaking Winterfell was predictable, that's because it was predictable. It was a pretty much inevitable step on the way towards shifting the focus to the battle against the White Walkers.

What's the alternative? Go Monty Python's Holy Grail or Blazing Saddles, and have White Walkers and Dothraki and Wildlings battling out of the set, off the studio lot, onto the streets, and get arrested by the police? That would sure be unexpected!

-k

[Bonam]

Now the Little Finger and the Vale pretty much control the North. It's not like the remaining forces have any ability to fight them.

The North is cold. Vale knights can't hold it without the cooperation of the natives. It'd be like the French trying to invade and occupy Russia.

Interestingly, this might have been the only battle so far that showed any real kind of "tactics" being used by the soldiers... phalanx formation. Pretty much every battle up to this point has been a chaotic mess of guys running around chopping at each other, which is not representative of how these kinds of battles were actually fought most of the time.

[kimmy]

I just heard that RR named Wun Wun after Phil Sims of the New York Giants. He was number 11.

I bet Wun Wun could provide better color-commentary for a football game than Phil Simms. HIYOOOOO!!

-k

[-1=e^ipi]

I'm surprised Littlefinger was like Nuh Uh! don't put that Stark Banner up, Aryn banner has to go there sucker!

Because he's smart enough to realize it would be a bad idea to antagonize the north.