Communism rules!

[betsy]

“Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.” – Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Excerpt from...

ARE AMERICAN PUBLIC SCHOOLS SAME AS RUSSIAN?

By Joel Turtel

December 31, 2005

NewsWithViews.com

Many parents might think it a bit farfetched to compare our public schools to schools in socialist or communist countries. However, if we look closer, we will see striking similarities between the two systems.

In the former socialist-communist Soviet Union, for example, the government owned all property and all the schools. In America, public schools are also government property, controlled by local government officials. In Soviet Russia, the government forced all parents to send their children to government-controlled schools. In America, compulsory-attendance laws in all fifty states force parents to send their children to public schools.

The Soviet rulers taxed all their subjects to pay for their schools. Here, all taxpayers pay compulsory school taxes to support public schools, whether or not the homeowner has children or thinks the schools are incompetent. In the Soviet Union, all teachers were government employees, and these officials controlled and managed the schools. In America, teachers, principals, administrators, and school janitors are also government employees, paid, trained, and pensioned through government taxes.

(more)....

But what values do Chinese communist schools teach their children? Here is another apt comparison between communist schools and our public schools. In both cases, either a central or local government controls the curriculum and the values it chooses to teach its students. The Chinese government can and does indoctrinate all school children with its communist ideology and loyalty to the communist leaders.

Similarly, in our public schools, left-leaning school authorities control the curriculum and the values they teach our children. In many public schools, values-clarification programs and distorted American history courses now indoctrinate our children with anti-parent, anti-religion, and anti-American values. In both communist schools and our government-controlled public schools, parents cannot (with a few exceptions) stop school authorities from teaching harmful or immoral values to their children.

Question --- Do socialist, compulsory, government-controlled public schools belong in America, the land of the free?

http://www.newswithviews.com/Turtel/joel6.htm

There is a battle being waged in Quebec. Parents against mandatory attendance to "Religion Course." It has reached the Supreme Court.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18606&pid=656677&st=0entry656677

Do you agree with the article? Do you see the similarities?

Do you agree that religion courses - teaching/understanding of the numerous religions - be mandatory?

Hopefully we can set aside our leanings to discuss this objectively.

Edited April 17, 2011 by betsy

[bloodyminded]

Western socialists, and the Left generally, has long understood that one can oppose Communist tyranny while embracing certain socialist ideals and aspects, which are perfectly commensurate with democratic societies. Socialism was opposed as much by the Leninists as by Western ideologues.

The Soviet Union Versus Socialism

Noam Chomsky

Our Generation, Spring/Summer, 1986

When the world's two great propaganda systems agree on some doctrine, it requires some intellectual effort to escape its shackles. One such doctrine is that the society created by Lenin and Trotsky and molded further by Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept. In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction.

It is clear enough why both major propaganda systems insist upon this fantasy. Since its origins, the Soviet State has attempted to harness the energies of its own population and oppressed people elsewhere in the service of the men who took advantage of the popular ferment in Russia in 1917 to seize State power. One major ideological weapon employed to this end has been the claim that the State managers are leading their own society and the world towards the socialist ideal; an impossibility, as any socialist -- surely any serious Marxist -- should have understood at once (many did), and a lie of mammoth proportions as history has revealed since the earliest days of the Bolshevik regime. The taskmasters have attempted to gain legitimacy and support by exploiting the aura of socialist ideals and the respect that is rightly accorded them, to conceal their own ritual practice as they destroyed every vestige of socialism.

As for the world's second major propaganda system, association of socialism with the Soviet Union and its clients serves as a powerful ideological weapon to enforce conformity and obedience to the State capitalist institutions, to ensure that the necessity to rent oneself to the owners and managers of these institutions will be regarded as virtually a natural law, the only alternative to the 'socialist' dungeon.

The Soviet leadership thus portrays itself as socialist to protect its right to wield the club, and Western ideologists adopt the same pretense in order to forestall the threat of a more free and just society. This joint attack on socialism has been highly effective in undermining it in the modern period.

One may take note of another device used effectively by State capitalist ideologists in their service to existing power and privilege. The ritual denunciation of the so-called 'socialist' States is replete with distortions and often outright lies. Nothing is easier than to denounce the official enemy and to attribute to it any crime: there is no need to be burdened by the demands of evidence or logic as one marches in the parade. Critics of Western violence and atrocities often try to set the record straight, recognizing the criminal atrocities and repression that exist while exposing the tales that are concocted in the service of Western violence. With predictable regularity, these steps are at once interpreted as apologetics for the empire of evil and its minions. Thus the crucial Right to Lie in the Service of the State is preserved, and the critique of State violence and atrocities is undermined.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1986----.htm

Edited April 17, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Michael Hardner]

If you want to create one society, rather than an archipelago of fractious encampments united only by a flag and the credo "every man for himself" then you need common education.

I'm starting to think that Communism needs to make a comeback, if only to give common people an alternative to the economic slavery that they seem to be drifting towards.

[WIP]

Western socialists, and the Left generally, has long understood that one can oppose Communist tyranny while embracing certain socialist ideals and aspects, which are perfectly commensurate with democratic societies. Socialism was opposed as much by the Leninists as by Western ideologues.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1986----.htm

It's also worth noting that most of the Bible, especially the New Testament keeps hammering away at the social gospel message of the importance of caring for the poor and less fortunate. The modern breed of fundamentalists need to explain their embrace of social darwinism and the socialism found in their own religious scriptures before condemning it elsewhere. Modern day fundamentalist Christianities are religions based on cognitive dissonance.

[betsy]

I like some of the socialist aspect in our society right now. What I'm worried about is the chipping away of our rights.

As a multi-cultural society, I think we're really doing great compared to some multi-cultural societies in Europe. So along the premise of getting along with one another, it seems we don't have that problem. We understand and respect one another's differences in culture and belief.

If our schools will start rolling out mandatory religion classes, then it should be done later when children are older.

It is hard enough for parents to impart their values to their children (what with all they see on tv and the movies)....without the school competing for airtime.

The right issue is my problem here. Right of the parents.

[Sir Bandelot]

As parents we have to realize, these schoolteachers command a lot of power over our youth. They are the portal to the outside world that most kids have, spending the majority of their active day in school and amongst kids and teachers, in what they perceive as the general public. Here is the first training ground. Here the foundation of knowledge, understanding and world-view is first laid out. The teacher, by definition is seen by the student as mentor and guide, wise, all-knowing, never wrong. We put 3 kids through the public system and found they were coming home with certain beliefs that I was against. They have been indoctrinated to become completely non-judgemental. I'm talking about, not just tolerating differences, but the outright acceptance, even, forced celebration of anything that goes. It has taken a lot of time to explain to the kids, what those teachers taught was outside of their academic mandate, they are not right to teach it and it is only their opinion, seen through their personal value system. It's a difficult battle now to get these kids to be willing to pass judgement on people and situations, to recognize that there is such a thing as right and wrong.

[betsy]

It's a difficult battle now to get these kids to be willing to pass judgement on people and situations, to recognize that there is such a thing as right and wrong.

The values taught in schools "go with the flow." The word "judgement" had been demonized somehow....they associate the word with the negative connotation of being judgemental. We're made to think that it is unnaceptable to make judgements of any kind.

How can we make decisions in life if we do not use our judgement?

How can we use our better judgement and make proper decisions in life if we have no clear understanding of what is right and what is wrong.

In the late 80's, parents were being discouraged to use the word "NO" to children. You don't say no. They said it's negative. Fast track. 20 years later when date-rape was becoming a problem, the educators and the law came up with the slogan, "No means No!"

Go figure.

Right now it seems there is no clear concept of right and wrong. Children must first know the concept and the basic difference between right and wrong before they get to know that there are some gray areas.

We are raising a confused generation....and future generations will be worse if we do not rectify the problem.

Edited April 18, 2011 by betsy

[Moonlight Graham]

If our schools will start rolling out mandatory religion classes, then it should be done later when children are older.

It is hard enough for parents to impart their values to their children (what with all they see on tv and the movies)....without the school competing for airtime.

The right issue is my problem here. Right of the parents.

Learning about other religions is healthy, and increases ones knowledge and understanding of the world and other cultures/people.

Learning about other religions is a lot different than practicing them.

[Bonam]

Here is the first training ground. Here the foundation of knowledge, understanding and world-view is first laid out. The teacher, by definition is seen by the student as mentor and guide, wise, all-knowing, never wrong.

Umm, really? Do most kids really look up to their teachers this way? Did you? I can remember clearly as far back as grade 3 thinking my teacher, Mrs. Miller, was a stupid old lady who didn't know what the heck she was talking about. I clearly distinguished between the few good teachers that I had throughout both elementary school and high school, and had varying opinions of them. I can still name every single one of my teachers from grade 2 onwards, all throughout elementary and high school, and describe what I thought of them at the time. While one or two of the best I might have considered "wise", I certainly never thought of any teacher as all-knowing or never wrong. Same goes for my sister who I watched go through school (she's in grade 9 now), she certainly did not hold her teachers in such high regard as you suggest.

I would suggest that kids do not glorify their teachers nearly so much as you think.

We put 3 kids through the public system and found they were coming home with certain beliefs that I was against. They have been indoctrinated to become completely non-judgemental. I'm talking about, not just tolerating differences, but the outright acceptance, even, forced celebration of anything that goes. It has taken a lot of time to explain to the kids, what those teachers taught was outside of their academic mandate, they are not right to teach it and it is only their opinion, seen through their personal value system. It's a difficult battle now to get these kids to be willing to pass judgement on people and situations, to recognize that there is such a thing as right and wrong.

It's definitely true, most teachers that I remember did push a kind of "non-judgmental" mindset all throughout school, as well as a celebration of mediocrity rather than achievement. It pervades everything, whether it was team sports in PE "there are no winners or losers", history (where 20th century history is not even taught at all except as an elective in grade 12), and even math and science, where many teachers routinely berate students who find the material trivially easy and thus finish early or don't pay complete attention, instead catering to the lowest common denominator in the class. I did have a few awesome teachers that were an exception to these generalizations, but they were definitely the minority.

That being said, I can clearly remember always thinking the teachers silly for pushing this kind of stuff, and it wasn't my parents who tried to convince me otherwise, it just seemed inherently self-evident that some things are to be valued more than others, that not everything is equally as good as everything else, that not everything is morally equivalent.

Perhaps I was some kind of aberration, or perhaps it was the life experience I had already had prior to starting school in Canada, but I think neither parents nor teachers should assume that kids (by the time they reach school age) are some kind of blank slate to deposit their own ideas and beliefs on.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Bonam

[CANADIEN]

Learning about other religions is healthy, and increases ones knowledge and understanding of the world and other cultures/people.

Learning about other religions is a lot different than practicing them.

Indeed, learning about other religion is not the same as being thought a religion.

[Sir Bandelot]

Indeed, learning about other religion is not the same as being thought a religion.

Perhaps these people who are against it, feel that in doing so it marginalizes the value of all religions. Or more specifically, their own. If the kid has not even been taught their own family's religion, and now is shown about all religions. Showing how similar they are, could also be interpreted as showing them as irrelevant.

As for teachers, I would not trust those leftist spinsters to teach any kind of value judgements to my kids. Most of the teachers I had were cynical, highly petty and exasperated by years of dealing with bad kids. There was not a Paulo Freire among them.

[Bonam]

Perhaps these people who are against it, feel that in doing so it marginalizes the value of all religions. Or more specifically, their own. If the kid has not even been taught their own family's religion, and now is shown about all religions. Showing how similar they are, could also be interpreted as showing them as irrelevant.

Yes, being taught about Zeus and the Greek Pantheon, Odin and the Aesir, Hinduism and their plethora of deities, ancient Egypt and their personification of almost every natural phenomenon as a god, and Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, one would likely dismiss them all as equally fanciful mythologies. Which, of course, they are.

[betsy]

Learning about other religions is healthy, and increases ones knowledge and understanding of the world and other cultures/people.

Learning about other religions is a lot different than practicing them.

Children can understand the world and other cultures in their early learning....what more with the multi-cultural society that we have, and all the resources provided to do just that....which is good. Through learning cultures, that touches somewaht on some religion I guess, especially when they see people doing what they do when they worship...children will ask questions. That's when they get their lessons. When they show an interest and ask questions. That's healthy. It's natural curiousity.

There is a right time for learning religion.....and for that, they need to have some maturity. Religion is heavy stuff! I don't think it's healthy actually to have them learn about different religions at an early age.

I still do not see why it should be mandatory.

The youths will be better served if they're given more time learning their spelling, reading and rithmetic (without the calculator). As it is, it's rare nowadays to find a highschool student who can write/spell correctly!

Edited April 19, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Showing how similar they are, could also be interpreted as showing them as irrelevant.

I suspect this is the goal.

[Moonlight Graham]

There is a right time for learning religion.....and for that, they need to have some maturity. Religion is heavy stuff! I don't think it's healthy actually to have them learn about different religions at an early age.

You're right, learning about religion does take maturity to comprehend it. That's why i was baptized as a baby, had my 1st Communion in Grade 2, and my Confirmation in Grade 6...right under the gun before the age when kids start to think for themselves and question religion. They really try to suck you in early, don't they?

Thanks mom, dad, the Roman Catholic Church, and my local Catholic school board!

Edited April 19, 2011 by Moonlight Graham

[Shwa]

There is a right time for learning religion.....and for that, they need to have some maturity. Religion is heavy stuff! I don't think it's healthy actually to have them learn about different religions at an early age.

I wholeheartedly agree! There should be a law against children under the age of 16 from entering a church, temple, synagogue, or any other place of worship - or being subject to any sermon, preaching, snake charming or candle burning, other that for light during a power outage.

Keep them out and when they are ready - at age 16 - then introduce them to all of the religions and let them make a choice as to what makes sense to them. There is no sense whatsoever inflicting the heavy stuff of religious guilt on them. Let them play on Sundays and let the parents sleep in a little.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Shwa

[cybercoma]

The right issue is my problem here. Right of the parents.

The right to what exactly? Censor the schools? No one's stopping you from teaching your children whatever batshit crazy dogma you want to ram down their throats. What people are trying to stop you from doing is ramming that dogma down everyone else's kids throat to the exclusion of them learning about the other batshit crazy dogmas out there.

[betsy]

The right to what exactly? Censor the schools? No one's stopping you from teaching your children whatever batshit crazy dogma you want to ram down their throats. What people are trying to stop you from doing is ramming that dogma down everyone else's kids throat to the exclusion of them learning about the other batshit crazy dogmas out there.

Are you reading or not? Who said anything about censoring???

MANDATORY! So you wouldn't miss that. That's my issue!

PARENTAL RIGHTS! (don't miss this one too) They have the right to teach their children their own values/religion!

When the child reaches age of maturity....then that's when you guys can have a go at them, and try to confuse them with your batshit crazy moral relativism!

Edited April 20, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Secularists are always trying to find excuses why our youths today seem to be more inclined to commit crime. They point the blame on poverty - even though most people in poverty do not resort to crimes,

on family dysfunction - although it can be said that not all people in dysfunctional families resort to crime,

on child abuse - although not all abused children grew up to resort to crimes!

Yet they try to overlook the glaring fact that this could be the result of MORAL RELATIVISM! The product of which is ever-shifting "truths". Distortions and lies are okay. Dishonesty is acceptable.

There is no solid foundation on the concept of right and wrong!

Edited April 20, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

This mandatory religion courses is not the end. Wait til we get the Universal Daycares!

“Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.” – Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Parents will be nothing more than "Den Mothers"....homes will be nothing more than boarding houses! Mothers' breasts will be nothing more than feeding stations!

Edited April 20, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

What's the point then of having children? Might as well give them to the system and let them incur all the expenses of raising them! Everyone wants a dib on the child....then everyone should pay for his upkeep!

Edited April 20, 2011 by betsy

[CANADIEN]

They have the right to teach their children their own values/religion!

And there is nothing in the teaching of the FACT there are different religions that prevents parents from teaching their own religions or values. Nothing, nada, rien, zero.

Might as well argue that teaching about, let's say, desegregation is preventing parents from imparting racist world views on their children.

[CANADIEN]

This mandatory religion courses is not the end. Wait til we get the Universal Daycares!

“Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.” – Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Parents will be nothing more than "Den Mothers"....homes will be nothing more than boarding houses! Mothers' breasts will be nothing more than feeding stations!

And here we go with the Apocalypse.

As for the Lenin line... The use of the school system as a endoctrination mechanism was not Lenin's attention. If anything, in this like in other methods of moulding society to think one way and only one way, he only had to turn to Christian theocracies to find models to adopt.

Somehow, if the teaching in the schools about religion was that "all religions are bad, except ours", I doubt you would protest that much.

[Black Dog]

“Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.” – Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Pretty sure it was Ronald McDonald who said that.

[Sir Bandelot]

Secularists are always trying to find excuses why our youths today seem to be more inclined to commit crime. They point the blame on poverty - even though most people in poverty do not resort to crimes,

on family dysfunction - although it can be said that not all people in dysfunctional families resort to crime,

on child abuse - although not all abused children grew up to resort to crimes!

Yet they try to overlook the glaring fact that this could be the result of MORAL RELATIVISM! The product of which is ever-shifting "truths". Distortions and lies are okay. Dishonesty is acceptable.

There is no solid foundation on the concept of right and wrong!

I applaud your courage for saying this