Conservatives - Party for Men, Rich?

[maplesyrup]

Conservative income tax proposals disproportionately benefit men, upper-income families--report

Families with incomes over $150,000 are the big winners in the Conservative Party's proposed income tax package, according to Who benefits? A gender and distributional impact analysis of election income tax promises. Furthermore, low-income and even middle-income Canadian families benefit very little from the Conservative income tax promises.

The study, released today by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, also found that men received the lion's share--73%--of the value of the tax reductions under the Conservative's proposal

As I suspected.

George Bush, Mike Harris, Gordon Campbell, Jean Charest, here comes the Stephen Harper Conservatives to join you.

[idealisttotheend]

You forgot Klien MS. Alberta's flat tax basically raised taxes on the middle class and lowered them for the rich (with the poor doing slightly better because of the higher minimum cutoff).

[Hjalmar]

Families with incomes over $150,000 are the big winners in the Conservative Party's proposed income tax package, according to Who benefits?

I believe the 22% rate kicks in at the $32,183 income level and this is the rate he is eliminating. In other words the bottom 16% rate would stay up to an approximate $50,000 income level. The 3rd level is to remain the same. Middle income earners will be the largest benefactors.

I always thought you were illiterate MS but now I'm wondering.. are you innumerate as well? Do the calculation again.. I'll lend you my abacus if you need it.

This tax cut benefits middle income [$32,183 - $50,000] earners

[maplesyrup]

-from the ccpa press release

Conservative key findings include:

The 64% of Canadian families with family incomes of $70,000 and less receive only 11.6% of the total decrease in taxes. Of these, the 32% of families with the lowest family incomes (under $30,000) receive less than one per cent.

The 36% of families with incomes of $70,000 or more receive 88% of the total decrease in taxes. And of these, the 7% of families with incomes of $150,000 or more receive almost one-third of the total value of this tax cut.

Men would see their total income tax payable decline by $559 on average, while women would see an average decrease of only $201

hjalmar......why do right wingers often cast personal insults when they are losing arguments?

I always thought you were illiterate MS but now I'm wondering.. are you innumerate as well? Do the calculation again.. I'll lend you my abacus if you need it

Do you think that could be the reason the Harper Conservatives are dropping in the polls?

[August1991]

-from the ccpa press release

Asking the CCPA to analyze a Tory tax proposal is like asking the Sierra Club to analyze an Exxon environmental initiative. The answer is a foregone conclusion.

For anyone interested, the CCPA Web Site is here. They don't provide membership lists nor even a national Annual Report on their web site. They say they get funding from "organizational and individual members".

Following your logic MS, if all the rich men vote Tory then I guess that leaves all the poor women to vote NDP. What's your point?

[Hawk]

* ... and the room sits in silence as the Liberals scramble for cover from the searing pain of truth *

Hehe sorry couldn't resist...

Whenever it comes to taxes the system in Canada discourages self-achievement, and I dont agree with that. Therefore giving rich people and middle class people alike a tax cut seems fine by me, but personally the middle class (which I am part of) is going to be grateful for any tax break we can get after the Liberals and their constant raising of taxes.. at least the conservatives are talking about LOWERING stuff =p

[Hjalmar]

Synopsis of the Conservative Party of Canada platform:

We will reduce the federal tax rate on middle-income Canadians by more than 25 percent.

A conservative government led by Stephen Harper will raise the thresholds for all tax brackets. They will phase out the 22 percent tax bracket on taxable incomes between $35K and $70K. All other brackets will be raised at one percent above the inflation rate. A taxpayer earning $50,000 per year will save about $1.000 per year on his or her taxes when the cut is fully implemented.

[Reverend Blair]

Not much of a platform really, is it? It also is not at all clear that they'll be able to do it without cutting programs and introducing user fees, which could well cost more than $1000/year.

[Hjalmar]

Not much of a platform really, is it?

This happens to be one item of 37 in their platform. This thread deals with income tax and is the only one of the 37 that belong here.

[Michael Hardner]

Therefore giving rich people and middle class people alike a tax cut seems fine by me, but personally the middle class (which I am part of) is going to be grateful for any tax break we can get after the Liberals and their constant raising of taxes.. at least the conservatives are talking about LOWERING stuff =p

Hawk - The Liberals lowered tax rates and corporate tax rates. Canada's tax rates aren't that much worse than the US's and are generally lower than those in Europe.

Let's keep things in perspective.

The Liberals have been guilty of complacency and lack of vision, though. There are many examples where good management and leadership can make the difference. Of the three main leaders, only Martin has the relevant experience to achieve such a change.

[playfullfellow]

The coutries in Europe that have higher taxes than Canada also tend to have much higher wages. These countries also allow you more write offs than Canada ie you can write off certain portions of your mortgage in Denmark, you also get a free education plus a military that is larger and better equipped than Canada's (larger because they have an incredibly large reserve much like Switzerland. And just a note, most of Denmarks tax increases were brought in by a Liberal government in the 70's

[Goldie]

Not much of a platform really, is it? It also is not at all clear that they'll be able to do it without cutting programs and introducing user fees, which could well cost more than $1000/year.

How does a federal government introduce user fees?

How 'bout putting it this way, The Conservatives, by cutting taxes will help Ontarians pay the premiums on health introduced by a Liberal Government with the backing of another Liberal Government?

How about tax cuts for families without cutting transfers for health as the liberals did?

How about shrinking the government and growing the economy to pay for more health care?

How about ending the public monopoly on health care?

[takeanumber]

I always thought you were illiterate MS but now I'm wondering.. are you innumerate as well? Do the calculation again.. I'll lend you my abacus if you need it.

Uncalled for.

[Reverend Blair]

How about looking to a place that has tried the tax cut route, Goldie. The deficit there has risen. State and municipal taxes have risen to cover shortfalls in revenue from the federal government. User fees have been introduced to counteract shortfall in revenue from the federal government.

I'm talking about the United States and George Bush's tax cut. Stephen Harper's plan is very similar and will meet with an equal lack of success.

Our taxes pay our bills. Not really any different than paying the mortgage, heat, power, etc. I don't like paying those bills, but I want my house and I want it to be warm and I want this magic typewriter to turn on when I push the button, so I pay the bills.

Harper is suggesting that we only have to pay part of the bill. At the same time he's promising to buy us a bunch of new stuff. He's like a crack addict with a shiny new credit card.

[playfullfellow]

There are also a lot of other areas of government that money can come from to cover any tax cuts. Like getting rid of the gun registry, getting rid of federal departments that are duplicated in provincial governments, spending money on special interest groups, introducing legislation to stop slush funds like what happened with adscam. We can also save 60 million a year by getting rid of the senate, 16 billion a year (that includes corporate cost, government cost is around 600 million a year) in bilingualism. What if the federal pension plan was changed to be the same as a regular persons pension, how much money would that save? There are plenty of other areas where there is a lot of waste that can be trimmed and yet still give us a modest tax cut. Harper may not be perfect but he is a person who hates waste and would trim the fat so to speak.

[August1991]

Harper is suggesting that we only have to pay part of the bill. At the same time he's promising to buy us a bunch of new stuff. He's like a crack addict with a shiny new credit card.

You make a number of assertions, Rev, about the wisdom of tax cuts and the need for government services.

As to government services, I think overall that we have too many of the wrong kind and that they don't provide the benefits intended. We can debate this if you want.

Rev, you argue that it is better to pay for these government services now rather than to go into debt. I'll take issue here with you because your (common) view shows a stark misunderstanding of government.

The government's situation is not at all like you and your family paying household bills. The government's situation is your neighbour paying his houshold bills using your cheque book and credit card.

Imagine! Your neighbour has the legal right to buy anything he wants and put it on your debit card or credit card. Now, does it make any difference to you which card your neighbour uses? No. If the neighbour chooses Visa, you can pay the Visa bill at the end of the month.

What if you don't have the money to pay the bill? Well, tell me, what happens in Canada if you don't pay your taxes?

Rev, you seem to think that Harper is bad because he wants to use your credit card to buy stuff, and Martin is good because he wants to use your debit card. In truth, it makes no difference which card a politician uses.

I think politicians should buy less stuff and make sure that what they do buy is stuff we really need.

This is the fundamental issue in this campaign.

[cgarrett]

really, i expect more from you august... this is far too simplistic.

government does so much more than most people realize and most of what it does business demands and its expensive.

for example, business and the economy demands transportable routes to ship goods and services. again, this is mostly business that needs this... but regular people chip in to build highways and bridges in this example. this is the power of a nation pooling its resources to make these huge projects possible. and some people gain jobs out of the deal but the economy grows and all canadians benefit when this occurs in many areas all over the country. i've used highways as an example here but the same could be said for power, water, communications infrastructure and on and on...

this isn't me spending my neighbors money... thats ridiculous.

[caesar]

August: "Rev, you seem to think that Harper is bad because he wants to use your credit card to buy stuff, and Martin is good because he wants to use your debit card. In truth, it makes no difference which card a politician uses."

that is not true. Martin wants to spend the money we HAVE; Harper will spend that and all we can borrow. Put our kids and grandchildren in debt for our bills.

Using credit cards is dumb; It ends up costing much more.

[August1991]

for example, business and the economy demands transportable routes to ship goods and services. again, this is mostly business that needs this...

If governments only built roads, I'd be happy. Unfortunately, they also make flags that don't fly...

and some people gain jobs out of the deal but the economy grows and all canadians benefit when this occurs in many areas all over the country

The dollar would have been spent anyway. To create jobs, government spending is probably the worst way.

this isn't me spending my neighbors money... thats ridiculous.

Every dollar the government spends means you (or someone else) has a dollar less to spend. More precisely, every thing the government buys means one less thing anyone else can buy.

really, i expect more from you august... this is far too simplistic.

Hunh?

that is not true. Martin wants to spend the money we HAVE; Harper will spend that and all we can borrow. Put our kids and grandchildren in debt for our bills.  Using credit cards is dumb; It ends up costing much more.

Government spends our money and borrows from us. To us, it makes no difference.

Imagine your neighbour uses your credit card to refurnish his living room. At the end of the month, you pay the bill. Your neighbour could have used your debit card and the result would have been the same.

Are you worried about the interest rate? How does that change anything above? (Or, the Canadian government borrows at the lowest rate going. Imagine your credit card had an annual interest of 4%.)

My point is that a government surplus/deficit is no measure of the fiscal competence of a politician. To be sexist, it matters little whether your wife buys stuff using your debit card or credit card. But it does matter how much stuff your wife buys.

[What if she buys using your credit card when you don't have the money to pay the bill? Well, what happens if you can't pay your tax bill?]

Please guys. I'm not simplistic. I'm asking you to understand this thing called "government". It is unlike any private corporation.

[Reverend Blair]

To be sexist, it matters little whether your wife buys stuff using your debit card or credit card. But it does matter how much stuff your wife buys.

No, it matters whether I need what my wife buys on the credit card. If she buys dog food, that's one thing. If she buys cat toys, that's another.

One is to sustain one class in my house, the other is to please the pampered class.

The Conservatives and Liberals, judging by what they've said and done since I've been looking around, prefer buying cat toys. They like the purring that it brings. I sit in my back yard with the dogs and howl....

[Goldie]

Keeping the entire North End awake all night in true static fashion.

I've never been rich but will vote Conservative again. They are responsible for turning Canada into Number one on the UN human developement index scale. We are now Number seven.

[caesar]

UN Human index scale???? How did the conservatives turn us into number one when we are 7??????? Sorry, have no idea what you are talking about.

The last time the Conservatives were in power they saddled us with the GST; put us in heavy debt, sold out Canada with the ridiculous lop sided free trade agreement.

[caesar]

(Harper may not be perfect but he is a person who hates waste and would trim the fat so to speak. )

yeah like Health Care; thanks but no thanks.

Then he will spend our money like a drunken sailor on a military to assist his buddy Bush. Again NO THANKS

We need to upgrade our military but not with transport planes. Ships to patrol CANADA's shores and Helicopters for defense. More men and bases to be available in times of disaster marine or land. Peace keepers not an invasion force to assist you know who.

[playfullfellow]

ceasar you seem to talk in circles. You say that we do not need to increase the military size when the Conservatives say so, then you say that we need to increase the size of our military for local issues or as peace keeping forces (a very galant effort that I agree with) and patroling our coasts. UMMM aren't these some of the very same issues that the Conservatives have named as issues for upgrading the military?

And where has Harper or the Conservatives ever stated they wanted to dismantle the Canadian helath care? Fine tune, tweak and get rid of unneccessary waste, yes. I have read your previous posts and you seem to have a problem with the current system. Exactly how do you propose to fix the system? I have seen plenty of posts of proposals on how to fix the system or why we should leave it alone, some of them I agree with, some I don't. I suggest you research the European healthcare system. I suggest this because they used to have a system similar to the system proposed by the NDP. It did not work hence all European countries have a two tier system and it is much more effective. I don't say cheaper but effective. The current system does not work and is bankrupting the country and we need to do something about it. The question is, how are we going to save what is left? Putting your faith in the Liberals is false hope, they have shown in the past they can not be trusted.

[Goldie]

Ceasar

See way back in the early to mid 90's through to 2000 Canada was number one on this scale. Now we have actually dropped below the US.

So Bono can say the world needs more Canada but what he meant is more Canda as it was after Mulroney not now after 11 years of Liberal rule.

We're # 8! behind the US on a scale that is valued by lefties, do some research then get back to me.