kimmy Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 ROMANS HAD HONOUR KILLINGS TOO! The Romans were barbarians. ALTHOUGH MUSLIMS WOULD LIKELY BE BARBARIANS... THE PRACTICE CANNOT BE BARBARIC BECAUSE ROMANS DID IT. Why? They were barbaric. THE GREEKS HAD HONOURABLE SUICIDE.. SO DO THE JAPANESE. AS DO INDIANS. FOR THAT MATTER MOST OF THE ANCIENT AND NOT SO ANCIENT WORLD INTO THE MODERN PERIOD HAD THESE PRACTICES. Barbaric. THEY HAD DUELS UP UNTIL THE 1900's in Canada and witch burnings. Barbaric. IT IS UNACCEPTABLE IN CANADA.... NOT A BARBARIC PRACTICE both. the author only demonstrates themselves to be uneducated to say it is barbaric. But typing in all-caps is a great way to look educated. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
DogOnPorch Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 THIS IS JUST STUPID TRUDEAU IS RIGHT!!! ROMANS HAD HONOUR KILLINGS TOO! ALTHOUGH MUSLIMS WOULD LIKELY BE BARBARIANS... THE PRACTICE CANNOT BE BARBARIC BECAUSE ROMANS DID IT. THE GREEKS HAD HONOURABLE SUICIDE.. SO DO THE JAPANESE. AS DO INDIANS. FOR THAT MATTER MOST OF THE ANCIENT AND NOT SO ANCIENT WORLD INTO THE MODERN PERIOD HAD THESE PRACTICES. THEY HAD DUELS UP UNTIL THE 1900's in Canada and witch burnings. IT IS UNACCEPTABLE IN CANADA.... NOT A BARBARIC PRACTICE the author only demonstrates themselves to be uneducated to say it is barbaric. Hacking-off a woman's clitoris isn't barbaric, eh? How about marrying an 8 year old? Merely a quaint cultural practice? btw: can you post a link to Canada's last witch burning? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
M.Dancer Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 Except when they spell it Pearl Harbour...then boooooooooo. How else would I spell it? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
DogOnPorch Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 How else would I spell it? http://static.zooomr.com/images/666034_90e15abc08_o.jpg Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Saipan Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 You mean like easter, st valentines day and village idiots are in ours? No, he was talking ritual murder. Even the "good" Moslems of new Afghani government have death penalty for mere conversion to non- Moslem religion. Quote
William Ashley Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Hacking-off a woman's clitoris isn't barbaric, eh? How about marrying an 8 year old? Merely a quaint cultural practice? btw: can you post a link to Canada's last witch burning? WHat and hacking off part of a mans genetalia isn't.... UNDERSTAND ITS NOT THE SAME IDEA FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE RAISED TO DIFFERENT VALUES. IT IS TOTALLY WRONG IF YOU ARE TAUGHT IT IS WRONG. BUT IT ISN'T IF YOU ARN'T. Of course bridging the education gap and explaining the reason why things are wrong is important. Why is cutting of a clitoris wrong? they don't need it. Why is cutting off male forskin wrong. It is a moral objective. Animals have sex with minors too. Also the whole Alisha thing is totally taken a bit out of context. People in Quebec can marry at like 13 or something. It isn't considered rape in many places if there is less than 2 year age difference between people under the age of consent. Some places it is. These are not universal values. Puberty occurs in 8 year olds some time, it sometimes occurs after 16 in others. Although I do 100% agree in Canadian society it is deemed a criminal offence, and results in Jail time and other penalties. Heck even showing a picture of this (I'm going to get flack but maybe that is one depiction of Mohammad that both Muslims and Canadians would agree not to proliferate the image of) It is a bit out of context http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm Ultimately as individuals and in concensus in society we make our own standards - if bound to a concept of faith we are held accountable to god for those virtues. The truth of this is your own truth. All we can know is that we are bound in society and a global interaction to mediate one anothers opinions and values, to create a functioning society. A society that refutes genocide as acceptable and refuses to find a lasting peace is one forever in war. Claiming your own values are right for others without consent is not good, it is evil. Find your own salvation, communicate to understand others. There is also the little problem that Mohammads wife wrote the Quaran not Mohammad Once again this is blasphemy among muslims to say this, but what if it was written to legitimize a mariage that wasn't actually consumated? There seems to be a lot of disagreement on the fact Aisha was the daughter of Muhammad's close friend Abu Bakr. She was initially betrothed to Jubayr ibn Mut'im, a Muslim whose father, though pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. When Khawlah bint Hakim suggested that Muhammad marry Aisha after the death of Muhammad's first wife (Khadijah), the previous agreement regarding marriage of Aisha with ibn Mut'im was put aside by common consent.[11] Aisha was six years old when betrothed to Muhammad.[11][15][16] She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine or ten, when the marriage was consummated in Medina.[16][17][18][19] with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.[15] Some modern Islamic writers have disagreed with these sources, such as Ahmadiyya leader Maulana Muhammad Ali who wrote in the first half of the 20th century that "there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.[20][21] Both Aisha and Sawda, his two wives, were given apartments adjoined to the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi mosque.[22] None the less trying someone from a different time period for the values of today.. chances are your ancestors did some things you wouldn't be all koshure with today either. Edited March 16, 2011 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
DogOnPorch Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 I quit reading after the women not needing their clitorises part. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
scribblet Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 ====== It fills me with a sense of unease and disgust to see this form of deteriation in the human cooperative condition that such hate speach is perpetuated in the very annals of the Harper Government. Snort, choke, gasp... Lordy I spilled my wine over that one - yeah - speach in the very annals of the Harper Government. :rolleyes: Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
Saipan Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 ROMANS HAD HONOUR KILLINGS TOO! Before Islam even existed. So that is where Islam is today - back in the days Islam was invented. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 No, he was talking ritual murder. Even the "good" Moslems of new Afghani government have death penalty for mere conversion to non- Moslem religion. So you think bride burning and honour killings are part of a ritual? Cite? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
jbg Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 More Trudeau-ian shenanigans from the Star: Trudeau ignites storm after ‘barbaric’ comments of honour killings "Absolutely unacceptable." Is he sure he wants to go quite so far and use such overheated rhetoric? Good for Trudeau, he's 100% right in his comments... So what's the problem again? What's the problem that Trudeau has with straightforward language? Why do we have to mince words when it comes to "honor killings"? Would he find calling the 9/11 attacks barbaric or savage "inappropriate"? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
SF/PF Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 I guess in his mind, some barbaric practices are not that bad.. On what planet does "totally unacceptable" equate to "not that bad.."? Really? Really?! Trudeau is completely correct on this. It has nothing to do with political correctness but with the degree of professionalism in writing. By calling the act "Barbaric," the guide is obviously trying to convey the fact that the act is.. oh, I dunno... totally unacceptable. So why not just say that? Clear, concise, specific. Hell, as others have pointed out, we have acts here in Canada that are barbaric and yet totally acceptable. If this came from a Smith or a Jones, I suspect the rhetoric would be a fraction of what it is. Quote Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -4.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.15
cybercoma Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 If honour killings and things like female genital "surgery" are not barbaric then I don't know what is. The problem is that it has a connotation of "we're civilized and you're not". Well, yeah. If murdering little girls and mutilating their genitals is culturally acceptable then you're absolutely uncivilized. Making murder and mutilation an acceptable part of your culture is abhorrent and should be treated as such. To be perfectly consistent with Kantian ethics, the same ought to be said for the United States and their practice of capital punishment and love affair with plastic surgery. If murder is wrong and coercing women to mutilate themselves with breast augmentation to be "acceptable" mates is also wrong, then it's not any better when we do it here. You can't say, "we only murder the bad guys!" Because in their culture, they're also only murdering the bad people or those that broke their laws. Moreover, you can't say FGS is forced upon women because it's something that many of them believe they have to do to be viable mates in their culture. It's a barbaric socially normative coercion, exactly the same way as encouraging women to have their breasts carved up and filled with silicone in America. Quote
scribblet Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 Barbara Kay of the NP says: Trudeau the multiculturalist walks into trap of his own making, betraying "the soft bigotry of low expectations" Quote Hey Ho - Ontario Liberals Have to Go - Fight Wynne - save our province
ToadBrother Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 Before Islam even existed. So that is where Islam is today - back in the days Islam was invented. The concept of honor killings is hardly restricted to Islam, and not all Islamic cultures in fact have it. The area where honor killings seem most prevalent is in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent. It should be noted that in India it is not restricted to Muslims, but is practiced by other religious groups as well. It is an aspect of Central Asian culture, by and large. Here in BC there have been a number of honor killings in recent years by Sikhs. Hard to see how you can frame Islam for that. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 The concept of honor killings is hardly restricted to Islam, ... Indeed...it is in my lifetime that the defense of honour was removed from the Italian criminal code... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
ToadBrother Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 Indeed...it is in my lifetime that the defense of honour was removed from the Italian criminal code... And what is the notion of a "crime of passion", but a nicer way of putting it? Quote
segnosaur Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 Because killing is part of the Islamic culture, as in honor killing. Ummm... no, its not. "Islamic culture" is not some monolithic entity, any more than "European culture" is. Under the banner of "Islam" you have a diverse range of beliefs and morals. I suspect the majority of muslims would condemn honor killing just as much as a christian or atheist might. I could also point out that honor killing is present in more than just the Islamic religion. Quote
segnosaur Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 Trudeau is completely correct on this. It has nothing to do with political correctness but with the degree of professionalism in writing. By calling the act "Barbaric," the guide is obviously trying to convey the fact that the act is.. oh, I dunno... totally unacceptable. So why not just say that? How about as a way to express a degree of revulsion over a particular activity. After all, speeding and cheating on your taxes is considered "unacceptable" as well. People doing so should be punished. But honor killings and female circumcision are in a whole other level of disgust. Quote
segnosaur Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 THIS IS JUST STUPID TRUDEAU IS RIGHT!!! ROMANS HAD HONOUR KILLINGS TOO! ALTHOUGH MUSLIMS WOULD LIKELY BE BARBARIANS... THE PRACTICE CANNOT BE BARBARIC BECAUSE ROMANS DID IT. Ummmm... your point? Although the source of the name "barbarian" goes back to greco-roman times, in current the common definition of "barbaric" is to imply uncivilized and/or brutal. THE GREEKS HAD HONOURABLE SUICIDE.. SO DO THE JAPANESE. AS DO INDIANS. FOR THAT MATTER MOST OF THE ANCIENT AND NOT SO ANCIENT WORLD INTO THE MODERN PERIOD HAD THESE PRACTICES. THEY HAD DUELS UP UNTIL THE 1900's in Canada and witch burnings. The fact that we had duels and witch burnings in the past does not mean that we cannot view those practices as "barbaric" if they were practiced today. There is just a lot of misrepresentation in the West on what honour killings actually are. A lot of false information.Male Rapists are killed. People who however have sex out of wedlock with familail permission are considered a form of rapist. This system of honour in the familial and the vestigality of women is very tradition and HIGHLY civilized. Such "civility" does not respect the rights of individuals to choose who they associate with. Therefore, even though the rules of such societies are well established, I'd hardly consider them "civilized". With sexual promescuity and acceptance of non marital sex and adultary as OK in Canada. As well they should be. Here in Canada we have a right to decide who we will and will not have (consentual) sex with. That is why rape happens more frequently in Canada Whoa... wait a sec... are you suggesting rape is due to "sexual promescuity"? I am rather disturbed that anyone would actually have that attitude here. Quote
wyly Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 How about as a way to express a degree of revulsion over a particular activity. After all, speeding and cheating on your taxes is considered "unacceptable" as well. People doing so should be punished. But honor killings and female circumcision are in a whole other level of disgust. I can recall many murders where fathers or mothers slaughtered their children and never was the term barbaric used..."barbaric" labels the entire social group of the murderers as barbarians by association...really there many many adjectives that can be used to describe a murder without using a word with connotations that suggest a broader social connection...and if people are honest in this discussion they'll admit they're referring to the entire social/cultural grouping of the killers not just the perpetrators when they use the term barbaric...honor killings are no worse than any other undeserved murder...female circumcision is no more acceptable than male circumcision... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
segnosaur Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 I can recall many murders where fathers or mothers slaughtered their children and never was the term barbaric used... Just because the term "barbaric" is not used by people commenting on a particular crime does not mean that they wouldn't describe the crime in those terms if asked. I happen to think the greyhound bus decapitation, the Simpson murders, and the JonBonet cases were all "barbaric", even if it wouldn't always be the first choice of words to use to describe them. "barbaric" labels the entire social group of the murderers as barbarians by association...really there many many adjectives that can be used to describe a murder without using a word with connotations that suggest a broader social connection... You have a right to your opinion (and that's exactly what the above is). In my opinion, it is perfectly acceptable to label a particular activity as barbaric without implying all elements of the culture are also "barbarians". ...and if people are honest in this discussion they'll admit they're referring to the entire social/cultural grouping of the killers not just the perpetrators when they use the term barbaric... Its not a case of 'honesty'... its just a matter of opinion. As I said before, it is my opinion that labeling a particular practice as 'barbaric' does not mean an entire culture is barbaric. ...honor killings are no worse than any other undeserved murder... You're right, its not. The difference is, an "honor killing" often has some sort of cultural acceptance. (That's what makes it an 'honor killing' as opposed to a straight-out murder). We can't protect ourselves from (for example) an immigrant who is insane and kills because his neighbor's dog told him to.... his actions were probably seen as evil in their own country as well. It is when a particular process is accepted in an original culture that we have to be careful to prevent people from bringing the same attitudes to Canada. ...female circumcision is no more acceptable than male circumcision... I believe that male circumcision is something that we can do without. (Its an unnecessary procedure, it decreases pleasure during sex, it can cause infections, etc.) However, I do have to point out: - The effects of male circumcision are far less traumatic than in female circumcision... the procedure is far less painful, and sensation is far less affected - There is some medical support to the benefits of male circumcision (reduction in cancer rates, infections, etc. Admittedly the information is not definitive though.) There is no such benefit to female circumcision Note that once again I'm not condoning male circumcision; I just don't see the process to be as significant as female circumcision. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 And what is the notion of a "crime of passion", but a nicer way of putting it? ...but different...the difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 I can recall many murders where fathers or mothers slaughtered their children and never was the term barbaric used... That is quite categorical....you sure about that? that the term barabaric is not used to describe an heinious act? http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/winnipeg/2011/03/14/17615971.html http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/16452 http://newspusher.com/EN/post/1244141702-2/IT-/students-murder-barbaric-and-unacceptable.html http://www.newschannel5.com/story/12497693/police-call-suspect-of-barbaric-case-an-animal "barbaric" labels the entire social group of the murderers as barbarians by association... Really....even those members of that social group who are opposed to the barbaric practice or just the members of the socio group who approve? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 16, 2011 Report Posted March 16, 2011 ....Note that once again I'm not condoning male circumcision; I just don't see the process to be as significant as female circumcision. Hmmm...I always wondered where "pork rinds" came from. Gimme back my foreskin! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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