Parents of dying Ont. baby withhold consent to end life-support

[ToadBrother]

Many people are still alive only because of medical intervention. Try again...

Yes, and most of those people have functioning higher brains. We're not talking about a heart transplant, we're talking about an infant who will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have any cognitive capacity of any kind.

Edited March 14, 2011 by ToadBrother

[cybercoma]

maybe bush_cheney would like to donate his brain so they could attempt the first ever brain transplant. he's not really using it anyway.

Edited March 14, 2011 by cybercoma

[Moonbox]

Not just "down south".....just try to get a third trimester abortion in Quebec if the mother's life is not threatened. Quebec sends these cases down to the Bible Belt (Kansas) because doctors won't perform the procedure.

The doctors won't perform the procedure because it's dangerous and because the baby is practically done cooking by then. It's easier to make the case that something with eyes and hands etc is actually a living human beings than a bunch of goo in the uterus in the first few weeks/months.

[Evening Star]

I'm not even sure what b_c's point is. This example (the infant on life-support) is not going to convince many people that socialized health insurance is a failed or unjust policy.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Evening Star

[cybercoma]

I'm not even sure what b_c's point is. This example (the infant on life-support) is not going to convince many people that socialized health insurance is a failed or unjust policy.

You're talking about a poster on a Canadian politics forum with the name bush_cheney. That should tip you off that he's a troll here to stir the pot with posts spouting declarations of US superiority and far right conservative dogma.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, and most of those people have functioning higher brains. We're not talking about a heart transplant, we're talking about an infant who will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have any cognitive capacity of any kind.

Not ever? No matter, there will be time for death soon enough. Until then, the American priests celebrate life! LOL!

[bush_cheney2004]

maybe bush_cheney would like to donate his brain so they could attempt the first ever brain transplant. he's not really using it anyway.

So says the member named "cybercoma"....you can't make this stuff up!

Edited March 14, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm not even sure what b_c's point is. This example (the infant on life-support) is not going to convince many people that socialized health insurance is a failed or unjust policy.

Such is not my purpose....I merely revel in the absurdity of the entire affair, complete with Ontario's death panel available as part of the script. This story makes for great theatre in the US...like Shona Holmes! Who says Americans don't care about Canada?

[cybercoma]

So says the member named "cybercoma"....you can't make this stuff up!

Completely irrelevant to the argument here. The only way to save the child, whose brain is irreparable, would be to perform a brain transplant, which isn't even remotely possible at this time. Even if they figured out how to successfully transplant a human brain in the next 25 years, the child's muscles would be so atrophied from being immobile that he would be physically incapable of functioning anyway. The kid is dead, your incessant trolling aside.

Edited March 14, 2011 by cybercoma

[bush_cheney2004]

Completely irrelevant to the argument here. The only way to save the child, whose brain is irreparable, would be to perform a brain transplant, which isn't even remotely possible at this time. Even if they figured out how to successfully transplant a human brain in the next 25 years, the child's muscles would be so atrophied from being immobile that he would be physically incapable of functioning anyway. The kid is dead, your incessant trolling aside.

The child's brain stem protests mightily with life, even as you would steal the last ventilated breath from a dying child. I don't know why you blame me....I don't even live in Ontario!

[Moonbox]

The child's brain stem protests mightily with life, even as you would steal the last ventilated breath from a dying child. I don't know why you blame me....I don't even live in Ontario!

Haha. Nobody's blaming you. The kid is dead though, and you are trolling.

[ToadBrother]

Such is not my purpose....I merely revel in the absurdity of the entire affair, complete with Ontario's death panel available as part of the script. This story makes for great theatre in the US...like Shona Holmes! Who says Americans don't care about Canada?

Let me get this straight. Doctors never ever pull the plug on a patient suffering incurable higher brain failure in the United States.

[bush_cheney2004]

Haha. Nobody's blaming you. The kid is dead though, and you are trolling.

Trolling? You bozos thought the matter was done....but God intervened in his/her holy wisdom...it's a miracle! I reported a factual update to the story, without slobbering rationalizations about how the kid was "already dead".

Use the ignore feature and stop whining.

[ToadBrother]

The child's brain stem protests mightily with life, even as you would steal the last ventilated breath from a dying child. I don't know why you blame me....I don't even live in Ontario!

The brain stem doesn't protest anything. It has no more will than a battery. It (and the upper nervous system) keep moderating body temperature, keep the circulatory system going as well as mediating other autonomic functions (but apparently not all, because a respirator is required, this infant has even less function than Terri Schiavo did). You will notice that I said autonomic functions. There is no will. Will is a function of higher brain areas, none of which in fact are actually happening in this case. There is no cure for this. The centers of the infant's brain that would produce will, personality, indeed all things that we would call the "person" do not work, and never will work. Even if by some miracle of medical intervention they can keep this infant alive, what they're keep alive is not a person, but simply a lump of organs with some autonomic function, and the cost will be enormous and the ethical dilemmas presented to the physicians keep the infant alive will mount.

[bloodyminded]

Such is not my purpose....I merely revel in the absurdity of the entire affair, complete with Ontario's death panel available as part of the script. This story makes for great theatre in the US...like Shona Holmes! Who says Americans don't care about Canada?

You say it. All the time. Despite your quant obsession.

But we keep reeling you back in for our amusement.

You can't make this stuff up!

The child's brain stem protests mightily with life, even as you would steal the last ventilated breath from a dying child.

Now you're attempting a moral argument, which you otherwise claim is irrelevant to any debate.

I think your American anxiety disorder is making you confused.

Edited March 14, 2011 by bloodyminded

[bush_cheney2004]

Let me get this straight. Doctors never ever pull the plug on a patient suffering incurable higher brain failure in the United States.

Not without making sure their asses are covered with legal consent. They usually gotta prove that brain necrosis is irreversible, no reflexes, self respiration, EEG, yada, yada, yada. The sole determinant can't be "it costs too much to keep this kid on a vent...somebody else might need it". LOL!

[ToadBrother]

Not without making sure their asses are covered with legal consent. They usually gotta prove that brain necrosis is irreversible, no reflexes, self respiration, EEG, yada, yada, yada. The sole determinant can't be "it costs too much to keep this kid on a vent...somebody else might need it". LOL!

Mr. Morality seems to have created a strawman. I don't recall the Canadian doctors saying "It costs too much money." I recall them saying "The infant cannot recover."

[bush_cheney2004]

Mr. Morality seems to have created a strawman. I don't recall the Canadian doctors saying "It costs too much money." I recall them saying "The infant cannot recover."

I disagree...somebody here echoed the same sentiment...that scarce resources were being dedicated to this "lost cause", and that includes skilled daily care in the unit.

[ToadBrother]

I disagree...somebody here echoed the same sentiment...that scarce resources were being dedicated to this "lost cause", and that includes skilled daily care in the unit.

So because someone else here talked about scarce resources, you assume that that was the doctors' justification?

As to scarce resources, I gather that US emergency rooms don't do triage in cases of disaster, because, well, that would be a death panel, right?

[bush_cheney2004]

So because someone else here talked about scarce resources, you assume that that was the doctors' justification?

Those are your assumptions...not mine. I don't care what the doctors' "justification" is.

As to scarce resources, I gather that US emergency rooms don't do triage in cases of disaster, because, well, that would be a death panel, right?

No...completely irrelevant....this not about the US, despite your natural tendency to invoke America at every turn. Now it turns out that the US does have greater capacity for such care, but that too is not the point.

Keep trying to deflect...it is just as much fun as any serious argument.

[ToadBrother]

Those are your assumptions...not mine. I don't care what the doctors' "justification" is.

My assumptions are that the baby is incurable, that no treatment exists and it would be unethical to continue treating a patient in such a state.

No...completely irrelevant....this not about the US, despite your natural tendency to invoke America at every turn. Now it turns out that the US does have greater capacity for such care, but that too is not the point.

Wow, with a wave of a hand Mr. America declares a cogent point "irrelevant", for no other reason than, well, actually, he doesn't give a reason. That is because, I suspect, he knows damned well that in emergency situations with more patients than doctors can hope to treat in time to save all lives, doctors become, for lack of a better phrase, death panels.

Fact is, Mr. America, that all doctors can become "death panels" in certain situations.

Keep trying to deflect...it is just as much fun as any serious argument.

Thus far all I can see is you deflecting. And where is it exactly that I invoked the US in this? It was already in the thread, I was responding.

[bush_cheney2004]

My assumptions are that the baby is incurable, that no treatment exists and it would be unethical to continue treating a patient in such a state.

So now you are doctor, jurist, and legal scholar?

Wow, with a wave of a hand Mr. America declares a cogent point "irrelevant", for no other reason than, well, actually, he doesn't give a reason. That is because, I suspect, he knows damned well that in emergency situations with more patients than doctors can hope to treat in time to save all lives, doctors become, for lack of a better phrase, death panels.

Not the case here....is there a line around the block in Toronto for respirators? Nope?

Fact is, Mr. America, that all doctors can become "death panels" in certain situations.

And if pigs had wings they could fly. Ontario has an official "death panel"....to save money!

Thus far all I can see is you deflecting. And where is it exactly that I invoked the US in this? It was already in the thread, I was responding.

I'm glad you did anyway...you make a good straight man for my annoying wit. See, it seems to me that whenever any Canadian, young or old, runs afoul of your broke dick health care system, they eventually end up running to the United States. Could be the lack of neo-natal care beds in BC, or PM Chretien and family going to Mayo, or Belinda Stronach getting breast cancer treatment....people just get fed up with all the provincial bullshit and head south to get the care they want the way they want it.

[Molly]

This is an interesting site:

http://www.understanding-medicaltourism.com/medical-tourism-canada.php

[ToadBrother]

So now you are doctor, jurist, and legal scholar?

I'm going by what the doctors' apparent opinions are. Have you got some information that the infant has any signs of higher function, or will ever have?

[bloodyminded]

I'm going by what the doctors' apparent opinions are. Have you got some information that the infant has any signs of higher function, or will ever have?

Yes: "America!"