August1991 Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) On an English Canadian forum, I must choose a Leftist American link to make my initial point. I know that one day soon, they'll be able to build a computer to do what I do — whatever that is — with many improvements.A computer that has a truly resonant voice, not some nasal urban twang. A computer than can pronounce the name of new international tennis contenders and heads of state without sounding like his tongue is about to jump the rails. A computer that knows everything in the news, and won't talk so much about his daughters or the Chicago Cubs. NPRHeck, I'll even start this thread in an obscure category. ----- Too many Leftists believe that it would be bad if computers/third world people replaced Americans and their jobs. Some Leftists refer to this as a "race to the bottom". Third world countries have no or weak labour laws. Poor countries have no environmental laws. They exploit their workers. How can Americans compete against slave labour? WTF? Slave labour? What about a computer! How can Americans compete against a computer? Computers work for nothing. Computers will drive wages to zero and impoverish us all. Computers will eliminate all jobs. We must prevent outsourcing to Chinese and Indian workers, and we must prevent computers from taking over our jobs. If you own a laptop, you must destroy it. Edited February 20, 2011 by August1991 Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 No worries...computers are fast...not intelligent. There is a difference. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
August1991 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) No worries...computers are fast...not intelligent. There is a difference.How many bank tellers lost their jobs because of ATMs, and how many typists lost their jobs because of computers?--- I want more Watson computers, and more Chinese workers. We are richer when we eliminate jobs and create unemployment. The Western world is rich because we outsourced work to technology, and other countries. (And in the process, the other countries are richer too!) Underneath all, the world is a better place when we eliminate drudgery jobs. Edited February 20, 2011 by August1991 Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) How many bank tellers lost their jobs because of ATMs, and how many typists lost their jobs because of computers? --- I want more Watson computers, and more Chinese workers. We are richer when we eliminate jobs and create unemployment. The Western world is rich because we outsourced work to technology, and other countries. (And in the process, the other countries are richer too!) Underneath all, the world is a better place when we eliminate drudgery jobs. "We"???? How are you going to replace those high paying manufacturing jobs outsourced to China ,or replaced by a computer??? How are going to get the displaced workforce back up to a level of wealth where they will contribute to the growth of this "drudgeryless" society you seek??? Lemme guess... Retraining??? Edited February 20, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
August1991 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Posted February 20, 2011 How are you going to replace those high paying manufacturing jobs outsourced to China ,or replaced by a computer???I dunno, Jack. But consider the alternative.Are you prepared to throw your laptop down the garbage chute? Do you think that Obama would get elected if that was his 2012 campaign theme? "Protect American Jobs! Don't Use Computers!" ---- Whether Watson or Chinese workers, what's the difference? Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) I dunno, Jack. But consider the alternative. Are you prepared to throw your laptop down the garbage chute? Do you think that Obama would get elected if that was his 2012 campaign theme? "Protect American Jobs! Don't Use Computers!" ---- Whether Watson or Chinese workers, what's the difference? That fact that a confirmed Adam Smith disciple,such as yourself,does'nt know suggests that the neoliberal/Smith/Von Hayek model is a broken one and certainly needs to be revisited? Like,tout de suite??? It's not about the use of technology...It's about lowering a standard of living we all enjoy to satisfy a wrongheaded economic agenda... Edited February 20, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Bonam Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 The reality is that more and more types of jobs will be able to be done by computers and other automated systems as technology continues to progress. Our economic system and development model has to take that into account. There's no going back. Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 The reality is that more and more types of jobs will be able to be done by computers and other automated systems as technology continues to progress. Our economic system and development model has to take that into account. There's no going back. OK... How are you going to deal with the inevitable decline in the standard of living to satisfy the corporate demand for constant profit? Because the both of those are inextricably linked... Are the masses that will be left on the outside looking in relegated to a lower standard of living because of this? Because "retraining" is'nt going to help everyone...In fact,I would suggest as a percentage,comparatively few... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Bonam Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 OK... How are you going to deal with the inevitable decline in the standard of living to satisfy the corporate demand for constant profit? Because the both of those are inextricably linked... Are the masses that will be left on the outside looking in relegated to a lower standard of living because of this? Because "retraining" is'nt going to help everyone...In fact,I would suggest as a percentage,comparatively few... Honestly, I don't have an answer. Obviously, many jobs done in the past by humans are now being done by computers, robotic systems, etc. That trend will only continue. It's not an issue of blaming evil corporations as you are fond of doing, it's a simple matter of technological progress. It is inevitable, and ultimately beneficial as well, as all such progress has been. We have the tremendous strides made in the 20th century to prove that much. My only guess is that new types of jobs will continue to be created that didn't exist before, and people will find work in those. Ultimately, it is up to each individual to ensure that they have the skills that allow them to provide for themselves and their families. Quote
August1991 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Posted February 20, 2011 That fact that a confirmed Adam Smith disciple,such as yourself,does'nt know suggests that the neoliberal/Smith/Von Hayek model is a broken one and certainly needs to be revisited?Like,tout de suite??? It's not about the use of technology...It's about lowering a standard of living we all enjoy to satisfy a wrongheaded economic agenda... So, stop using your laptop. Stop using ATMs. When you use a computer, you are "outsourcing".Jack, stop using mobile phones. Taxi drivers lose their jobs when you phone friends. Cell phones drive wages down to zero. Cell phones, like Chinese workers, are a race to the bottom. They make the rich richer, and poor people poorer. Because of cell phones, the world today has greater extremes of wealth. As one of our federal Canadian ministers said: "Not". Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 Honestly, I don't have an answer. Obviously, many jobs done in the past by humans are now being done by computers, robotic systems, etc. That trend will only continue. It's not an issue of blaming evil corporations as you are fond of doing, it's a simple matter of technological progress. It is inevitable, and ultimately beneficial as well, as all such progress has been. We have the tremendous strides made in the 20th century to prove that much. My only guess is that new types of jobs will continue to be created that didn't exist before, and people will find work in those. Ultimately, it is up to each individual to ensure that they have the skills that allow them to provide for themselves and their families. Right...Becuase altruistic corporations have never demanded (through political lobbyists) things like "free trade agreements" that allow them to move their facilities to low wage jurisdictions to maximize profits... 'Cause that's never happened... I'm afraid technological progress answers only a part of the equation... The fact that a neoliberal disciple,such as yourself has admitted(again),there is no answer to the inevitable spiral downwards in the standard of living here suggests that this might be an ill-fated (and extremely short sighted) economic plan... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) So, stop using your laptop. Stop using ATMs. When you use a computer, you are "outsourcing". Jack, stop using mobile phones. Taxi drivers lose their jobs when you phone friends. Cell phones drive wages down to zero. Cell phones, like Chinese workers, are a race to the bottom. They make the rich richer, and poor people poorer. Because of cell phones, the world today has greater extremes of wealth. As one of our federal Canadian ministers said: "Not". Ah yes... The 'Let them eat cake' response from the neoliberals... That's not new,it just does'nt really answer the question of stopping the downward spiral... How are going to stop that,if at all? If not,then it's time to admit that what this really is is a wealth redistribution excercise upwards.... Edited February 20, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
August1991 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) How are you going to deal with the inevitable decline in the standard of living to satisfy the corporate demand for constant profit?WTF?Someone finds a better way to strip a cotton tree, and eliminate jobs, and you think that means a "decline in the standard of living". Jack, are you an idiot - or just a Leftist? Edited February 20, 2011 by August1991 Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 WTF? We find a better way to strip a cotton tree, and eliminate jobs, and you think that means a "decline in the standard of living". Jack, are you an idiot - or just a Leftist? That's it... Turn this into a two dimensional situation... How are going to allow for the guy(or guys) who have lost there job stripping that cotton tree to keep his/their standard of living?? Or does that collectively no longer matter? Is it all,and only about,"shareholder value"? If the people losing there jobs do not find suitable employment,the standard of living in that juridiction will inevitably fall... How does your neoliberal economic outlook change that inevitability,or does it not matter? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
August1991 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Posted February 20, 2011 How are going to allow for the guy(or guys) who have lost there job stripping that cotton tree to keep his/their standard of living??Or does that collectively no longer matter? You're right, Jack. I feel sorry for the horse trainer, and the bank teller. Because of you, Jack, I have decided to stop driving my car and I have decided to stop using ATMs.From now on, I will use a horse to commute in Montreal, and I will always do my banking with a teller. You have convinced me to protect local jobs. Quote
Bonam Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 That's it... Turn this into a two dimensional situation... How are going to allow for the guy(or guys) who have lost there job stripping that cotton tree to keep his/their standard of living?? Or does that collectively no longer matter? Is it all,and only about,"shareholder value"? If the people losing there jobs do not find suitable employment,the standard of living in that juridiction will inevitably fall... How does your neoliberal economic outlook change that inevitability,or does it not matter? So what are you then, a Luddite? You think we should forsake technical progress just so people can keep their jobs? Forget advancement, forget making new and better things, forget efficiency, and just keep everything the same, forever? Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 You're right, Jack. I feel sorry for the horse trainer, and the bank teller. Because of you, Jack, I have decided to stop driving my car and I have decided to stop using ATMs. From now on, I will use a horse to commute in Montreal, and I will always do my banking with a teller. You have convinced me to protect local jobs. That's simply a smartass non answer... How does your neoliberal ethos stop the standard of living from falling here,while increasing shareholder value by setting up shop in low standard of living jurisdictions in other places? Or does that simply not matter? Or,as you have stated previously,there is no real answer? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) So what are you then, a Luddite? You think we should forsake technical progress just so people can keep their jobs? Forget advancement, forget making new and better things, forget efficiency, and just keep everything the same, forever? I did'nt say that.. Technological advancement is only part of the downward spiral equation... The real issue is the loss of employment for thousands of people,or a better term,the resulting underemployment post job loss. And I have yet to hear from two hardcore disciples of neoliberal economics on how this problem is actually solved??? Do you have ananswer to that very important standard of living question??? If you actually have no answer,perhaps the neoliberal model you espouse must be called into serious question??? Edited February 20, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Bonam Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 I did'nt say that.. Technological advancement is only part of the downward spiral equation... The real issue is the loss of employment for thousands of people,or a better term,the resulting underemployment post job loss. And I have yet to hear from two hardcore disciples of neoliberal economics on how this problem is actually solved??? Do you have ananswer to that very important standard of living question??? If you actually have no answer,perhaps the neoliberal model you espouse must be called into serious question??? The reality is that as technology progresses, production rises. That, after all, is the point. The total value of goods and services produced only increases, divide that by the population and the only thing you can see is that the standard of living is rising. People adapt to the disappearance of old jobs and the creation of new, different types of jobs. Anyway, what alternative model do you propose? Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 The reality is that as technology progresses, production rises. That, after all, is the point. The total value of goods and services produced only increases, divide that by the population and the only thing you can see is that the standard of living is rising. People adapt to the disappearance of old jobs and the creation of new, different types of jobs. Anyway, what alternative model do you propose? Uh huh... So..Those "outdated"manufacturing jobs disappear and are replced by... The high paying,and gainfully employing,service sector??? Temp services??? Please explain to me how the standard of living rises when several thousand workers are permanently laid off from high paying jobs...some might retrain and be gainfully employed in income equivalent occupations.Most,sadly,have to take a job of alot less income quality and that standard of living drops significantly... I'm not seeing it??? How does the standard of living of the populous rise in a given jurisdiction,when the high paying jobs are shipped somewhere else,and what's left drains the wealth out of the populou,as a whole? This is the ethos that you espouse... Please...Help me understand the overall positivity in that? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Michael Hardner Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 OK... How are you going to deal with the inevitable decline in the standard of living to satisfy the corporate demand for constant profit? Because the both of those are inextricably linked... Are the masses that will be left on the outside looking in relegated to a lower standard of living because of this? Because "retraining" is'nt going to help everyone...In fact,I would suggest as a percentage,comparatively few... Basic economics says that standard of living will increase. They used to throw their shoes into machines because they didn't want them to take their jobs. At that time, a large number (25% ?) of people worked in agriculture. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 Uh huh... So..Those "outdated"manufacturing jobs disappear and are replced by... The high paying,and gainfully employing,service sector??? There are high paying jobs in the service sector: IT services, Medical services, Sales ...to name three. Temp services??? Please explain to me how the standard of living rises when several thousand workers are permanently laid off from high paying jobs...some might retrain and be gainfully employed in income equivalent occupations.Most,sadly,have to take a job of alot less income quality and that standard of living drops significantly... Overall, the economic benefits accrue to the population as a whole. Do this happen across the economic spectrum equally ? No. Investors, and those who own the technology gain more. I'm not seeing it??? How does the standard of living of the populous rise in a given jurisdiction,when the high paying jobs are shipped somewhere else,and what's left drains the wealth out of the populou,as a whole? This is the ethos that you espouse... Please...Help me understand the overall positivity in that? Certain industries (manufacturing and IT) will pay heavily for the benefits achieved by the whole. It is up to us to manage this via the government. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Wild Bill Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 There are high paying jobs in the service sector: IT services, Medical services, Sales ...to name three. Overall, the economic benefits accrue to the population as a whole. Do this happen across the economic spectrum equally ? No. Investors, and those who own the technology gain more. Certain industries (manufacturing and IT) will pay heavily for the benefits achieved by the whole. It is up to us to manage this via the government. Michael, you're right about part of the problem but so is Jack! I've been watching this happen for years and am a victim of it myself. Change is inevitable and yes, we can't expect to keep a job making buggy whips forever. The problem today is that changes have been happening faster than many workers can adapt. Consider a 45 or 50 year old factory worker. He likely never finished high school. He is only semi-skilled, in whatever skill he performed in the factory. If that factory closes, odds are today that competitors' factories have closed as well, due to technological change. So what does he do? Job retraining is very ineffective, in the real world. Also, with his background he's starting from farther back than many younger folks. Age discrimination may be illegal but it is very hard to prove. Not many folks are successful suing their way into a new career! When you are in your 20's changing jobs is far easier than when you are in your 50's. By then, many companies won't want to hire someone like you that will be hitting retirement age soon. Besides, we've lost jobs for ALL ages! Employers are going to hire the young first for all but jobs that require experience in a specific field and we've already stipulated that tech change has been causing a loss of jobs in those specific fields in the first place! There's a tendency today to think that education and re-training is a routine function like a job factory. Schools will train people like pigeons to perform their tasks and if that job becomes obsolete just go back to school for a short time and you will be trained for whatever new jobs have been created. This may have been true in the past decade or two but it doesn't seem to fit the paradigm today. So far, the trend has been for fewer workers needed in any particular field. Nothing seems to have come along that employed the large number of workers that manufacturing did in the 50's and 60's. Here in Hamilton I watched the steel companies lay off workers through a number of economic cycles. Each time a recession ended every talking head seemed to be saying that times were good again. What no one seemed to talk about was that fewer workers were rehired each cycle than were laid off! Stelco at one time employed nearly 20,000 workers! Today they have less than a 1000. There ARE new jobs created due to technological change but they are NOT for that 45-50 year old worker! They're for that young man or woman still in school, who can see the changes happening and plan his or her education to be ready. That's assuming that young potential worker is smart enough! A certain portion of the workforce just isn't blessed with that amount of smarts! What happens to them? Are they doomed to a career of wearing big gloves and sorting out tin cans and plastics in a garbage recycling station? The world is changing whether we like it or not but I truly think the viewpoint that job change is painless is a shallow one. There are real human beings falling through the cracks. One can argue that many union workers came to take too much for granted or that people in general should pay more attention to the world around them and be proactive instead of reactive but that again is just not "real world". Large numbers of people have ALREADY fallen though the cracks! What do we expect them to do? Most of those 45-50 year old workers who have lost their jobs will never have as good paying jobs again. They will be lucky to be greeters at the corner WalMart. Job retraining programs are really just extensions for EI benefits. The economy just doesn't need many old folks who have been trained in how use MicroSoft Word and Excel for the first time in their lives. The fact is, few if any of those courses are of positive value. They train older workers to be air conditioning technicians yet business doesn't need more such technicians! The sad fact is that few areas are hiring these days, period! I don't know of any solution and as I said, the world is going to do what it will. Jack has some valid concerns but unfortunately, if he thinks someone can legislate a solution I think he is mistaken. Right now no one really knows the future so no one can make useful predictions. Perhaps in hindsight it will all look easy! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Bonam Posted February 20, 2011 Report Posted February 20, 2011 Michael, you're right about part of the problem but so is Jack! I've been watching this happen for years and am a victim of it myself. Change is inevitable and yes, we can't expect to keep a job making buggy whips forever. The problem today is that changes have been happening faster than many workers can adapt. Consider a 45 or 50 year old factory worker. He likely never finished high school. He is only semi-skilled, in whatever skill he performed in the factory. If that factory closes, odds are today that competitors' factories have closed as well, due to technological change. So what does he do? Job retraining is very ineffective, in the real world. Also, with his background he's starting from farther back than many younger folks. Age discrimination may be illegal but it is very hard to prove. Not many folks are successful suing their way into a new career! When you are in your 20's changing jobs is far easier than when you are in your 50's. By then, many companies won't want to hire someone like you that will be hitting retirement age soon. Besides, we've lost jobs for ALL ages! Employers are going to hire the young first for all but jobs that require experience in a specific field and we've already stipulated that tech change has been causing a loss of jobs in those specific fields in the first place! There's a tendency today to think that education and re-training is a routine function like a job factory. Schools will train people like pigeons to perform their tasks and if that job becomes obsolete just go back to school for a short time and you will be trained for whatever new jobs have been created. This may have been true in the past decade or two but it doesn't seem to fit the paradigm today. So far, the trend has been for fewer workers needed in any particular field. Nothing seems to have come along that employed the large number of workers that manufacturing did in the 50's and 60's. Here in Hamilton I watched the steel companies lay off workers through a number of economic cycles. Each time a recession ended every talking head seemed to be saying that times were good again. What no one seemed to talk about was that fewer workers were rehired each cycle than were laid off! Stelco at one time employed nearly 20,000 workers! Today they have less than a 1000. There ARE new jobs created due to technological change but they are NOT for that 45-50 year old worker! They're for that young man or woman still in school, who can see the changes happening and plan his or her education to be ready. That's assuming that young potential worker is smart enough! A certain portion of the workforce just isn't blessed with that amount of smarts! What happens to them? Are they doomed to a career of wearing big gloves and sorting out tin cans and plastics in a garbage recycling station? The world is changing whether we like it or not but I truly think the viewpoint that job change is painless is a shallow one. There are real human beings falling through the cracks. One can argue that many union workers came to take too much for granted or that people in general should pay more attention to the world around them and be proactive instead of reactive but that again is just not "real world". Large numbers of people have ALREADY fallen though the cracks! What do we expect them to do? Most of those 45-50 year old workers who have lost their jobs will never have as good paying jobs again. They will be lucky to be greeters at the corner WalMart. Job retraining programs are really just extensions for EI benefits. The economy just doesn't need many old folks who have been trained in how use MicroSoft Word and Excel for the first time in their lives. The fact is, few if any of those courses are of positive value. They train older workers to be air conditioning technicians yet business doesn't need more such technicians! The sad fact is that few areas are hiring these days, period! I don't know of any solution and as I said, the world is going to do what it will. Jack has some valid concerns but unfortunately, if he thinks someone can legislate a solution I think he is mistaken. Right now no one really knows the future so no one can make useful predictions. Perhaps in hindsight it will all look easy! I don't think anyone is implying that it is easy. Of course older workers who lose their jobs will have a hard time of things. But for all the criticism of this situation, I have yet to see a proposed solution. Technological progress will only continue to accelerate and people will have to keep learning to adapt faster and faster. That's just a given unless society forsakes technology and embraces an Amish lifestyle. I'm not seeing any proposals from Jack to address the problem, just railing against evil corporations and outsourcing. Quote
GostHacked Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 WTF? Someone finds a better way to strip a cotton tree, and eliminate jobs, and you think that means a "decline in the standard of living". Jack, are you an idiot - or just a Leftist? Ever wonder why more and more every day can only shop at places like Wal-Mart?? But the standard of living is increasing? If you are talking about cost of living going up, then you are correct. Quote
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