Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Forcing people into unions, denying them their right to work is not too far removed from forcing people into a religion and denying them the freedom to worship as they like. It's completely different. How is it not too far removed ? The first step towards that was started with the most moronic declaration by a head of state in human history, when George W. Bush said that Islam was a religion of peace. What are you saying - that George W. Bush was taking the first steps towards forcing Americans to become Muslim ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Yukon Jack Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 It's completely different. How is it not too far removed ? What are you saying - that George W. Bush was taking the first steps towards forcing Americans to become Muslim ? As a wise man once said: If a government is strong enough to give you everything you need, it is strong enough to take from you everything you have. (Paraphrased). If they can make you join a union you don't want to join, they can make you join everything you oppose. George W. Bush with that ultimate in political correctness statement opened the door for giving legitimacy to the "religion" that holds women in contempt, "religion" that never got passed the 7th century, a "religion" that is the pure incarnation of HATE, a "religion" that expands not by love and compassion but by murder, killing and atrocities, a "religion" that declares all those who are outside of it monkeys, pigs and infidels, and must be butchered in ways only acceptable to uncivilized followers of a horny and murderous pedophile. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 As a wise man once said: If a government is strong enough to give you everything you need, it is strong enough to take from you everything you have. (Paraphrased). If they can make you join a union you don't want to join, they can make you join everything you oppose. The question, though, isn't how strong they are - is it ? They're strong enough to do a lot of things. Forced conversion of the American population ? No. George W. Bush with that ultimate in political correctness statement opened the door for giving legitimacy to the "religion" that holds women in contempt, "religion" that never got passed the 7th century, a "religion" that is the pure incarnation of HATE, a "religion" that expands not by love and compassion but by murder, killing and atrocities, a "religion" that declares all those who are outside of it monkeys, pigs and infidels, and must be butchered in ways only acceptable to uncivilized followers of a horny and murderous pedophile. Legitimacy is and already was guaranteed in the US constitution. Your views are indeed quite on the fringe as you seem to want to overrule the constitution to allay your prejudiced fears. So be it - but that's a question for another thread. The right to organize, and to form a collective to represent the workers has been long established. And, yes, it works to the workers' advantage, which is why the employers try to break it up. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 They have to re-negotiate new contracts anyway...if they don't want to play, new teachers are waiting in the wings! Real good ones, I'm sure. Isn't there a teacher shortage in the US? Bust the unions NOW! Yay! Back to the 19th Century! When life was gooood! Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Hey, it's America's "society"...not yours. Should I gnash teeth over what happens to poor, unproductive Canadian workers who are routinely told to stop whining and move to Alberta? Having a sewer next door creates all sorts of problems here. You guys should know that given your southern border problems. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 In this case, conservative ideology Is the democratic will. I rather doubt the governor put his union busting plans into his election platform for people to judge. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Yukon Jack Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 "The right to organize, and to form a collective to represent the workers has been long established. And, yes, it works to the workers' advantage, which is why the employers try to break it up." Perfectly acceptable any place where there is competition. Thus an unsatisfied GM employee can find a more satisfactory accommodation at For or Chrysler. If GM loses and Ford/Chrysler gains, the public is not held hostage by any of the companies mentioned above. One can go and buy a vehicle made by the competition. But what about teachers, police, fire fighters, etc.??? Where can the public go? There is no competing fire department, police or school personnel (unless you want to shell out for private schools). Some services are essential and stopping and/or denying them by slowdowns and strikes are simply NOT acceptable, since there is no alternate service provided. Unions for these services are nothing but thieves taking advantage of laws hastily and foolishly established. IMHO there should be no unions for any of the essential services. Quote
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Okay...but back to your passionate point....why didn't they vote this way in such numbers back in November? When times are rough, it's always handy for a demagogue to pick out a group which he can then blame for the troubles in hopes of directing people's anger away. Hitler wasn't the first, and Walker won't be the last. Even so, while Walker claimed the need to cut back on pay and pension for "those evil public servants" I doubt many voters were aware of his intent to destroy unions across the state. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
GWiz Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Considering this seems to be a Trojan Horse to set a precedent for RTW in a Closed Shop state,using public sector employees as a test case,I would say it's time to draw a line in the sand... I see you see what I see... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 But back to the topic: those of us who don't like bedbugs, would do just about everything to eliminate them. There are those of us who firmly believe that unions are like bedbugs. And then there are those whose entire existence revolves around being bit in the ass and enjoying it. Like paying union dues and getting nothing in return. As long it does not require a personal effort. And then there are those of us who went to school and got an education and learned some history... And those of us who went out into the world, and met a lot of people, and worked in a lot of places and came to know a few things about life and reality. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Yukon Jack Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 And then there are those of us who went to school and got an education and learned some history... And those of us who went out into the world, and met a lot of people, and worked in a lot of places and came to know a few things about life and reality. Well, except for me and a few enlightened good conservatives, they surely haven't shown up on this thread. Quote
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Here we go again... Focus people focus, if you forget, read the heading of the thread, sheeesh... I agree. There is no purpose to be served in getting into childish back and forth insult exchanges. They're not even amusing or clever insults, for Gods sakes! Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 "The right to organize, and to form a collective to represent the workers has been long established. And, yes, it works to the workers' advantage, which is why the employers try to break it up." Perfectly acceptable any place where there is competition. Thus an unsatisfied GM employee can find a more satisfactory accommodation at For or Chrysler. If GM loses and Ford/Chrysler gains, the public is not held hostage by any of the companies mentioned above. One can go and buy a vehicle made by the competition. As this "crisis" proves, it's more necessary when your boss actually MAKES the laws that define your agreement. Where can the public go? There is no competing fire department, police or school personnel (unless you want to shell out for private schools). And where can the workers go ? A competing fire department ? There are competing schools, but I wouldn't tell the public to go to a private school instead anymore than I would tell a worker to go work for one instead. Some services are essential and stopping and/or denying them by slowdowns and strikes are simply NOT acceptable, since there is no alternate service provided. Unions for these services are nothing but thieves taking advantage of laws hastily and foolishly established. IMHO there should be no unions for any of the essential services. I'm ok with having 'essential services' and sending the negotiations to binding arbitration. But as I've said, workers have a right to organize. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Seriously dude, every one of your posts is something about "busting" and "RTW". Stop spamming buzz words. At least it is on topic, which is more than can be said for most of the crap from the last several pages. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Spot on! He just spams the same buzz words over and over again. But doesn't actually delve into the issues. Seems to me I've tried to suggest issues to you several times and you've completely ignored them. All you seem to do is spout the same line about how public servants aren't paying enough for their pensions. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 If busting unions means more freedoms, then by definition it needs to be done. Because unions are therefore severely flawed. How does busting unions mean more freedom? Well, except for employers, of course. I can see it in that regard.Is that what you meant? I don't know why you brought in choice about 'killing babies' but it's interesting to note the new governor is opposed to choice in abortion, in fact, opposed to it even in the case of rape, incest, or the life of the mother. Apparently 'choice' is not high on his priority list. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
GWiz Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 "The right to organize, and to form a collective to represent the workers has been long established. And, yes, it works to the workers' advantage, which is why the employers try to break it up." Perfectly acceptable any place where there is competition. Thus an unsatisfied GM employee can find a more satisfactory accommodation at Ford or Chrysler. If GM loses and Ford/Chrysler gains, the public is not held hostage by any of the companies mentioned above. One can go and buy a vehicle made by the competition. But what about teachers, police, fire fighters, etc.??? Where can the public go? There is no competing fire department, police or school personnel (unless you want to shell out for private schools). Some services are essential and stopping and/or denying them by slowdowns and strikes are simply NOT acceptable, since there is no alternate service provided. Unions for these services are nothing but thieves taking advantage of laws hastily and foolishly established. IMHO there should be no unions for any of the essential services. I think you just made a pretty good case FOR unions! ESPECIALLY in the public sector where the need is greatest because of special training requirements that cannot easily be replaced by someone off the street... That kind of special training is VERY EXPENSIVE and I'd sure want to keep those kind of employees happy and working at peak efficiency... I wouldn't want them going to the state next door that has more to offer them than my state does... As you said, they perform ESSENTIAL SERVICES to and for the public... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Seems to me I've tried to suggest issues to you several times and you've completely ignored them. All you seem to do is spout the same line about how public servants aren't paying enough for their pensions. And ... as I have REPEATEDLY POINTED OUT -> if this is an economic issue as has been stated, why is Pinko the only person who has tried to advance an argument with the numbers. I even went the Wisconsin Republican page, and all we get is these mushy emotional arguments. My response, then, will be thus: WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN. It's as valid as the emotional arguments from the other side. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
ToadBrother Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 How does busting unions mean more freedom? Well, except for employers, of course. I can see it in that regard.Is that what you meant? I don't know why you brought in choice about 'killing babies' but it's interesting to note the new governor is opposed to choice in abortion, in fact, opposed to it even in the case of rape, incest, or the life of the mother. Apparently 'choice' is not high on his priority list. The new governor seems to have discovered the meaning of the word "quorum", however. Quote
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Pie-in-the-sky doomsday scenario? Fantasy? I'd just call it stupid myself... Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Well, except for me and a few enlightened ... Funny you should use the term 'enlightened' - from the Age of Enlightenment. This was an era in which philosophers espoused the idea of human rights, and freedom of religion. And here you are trying to ban a religion, and overturn arguably the greatest product of the Enlightenment - the US bill of rights. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Well, except for me and a few enlightened good conservatives, they surely haven't shown up on this thread. I got news for you, Jack. I happen to be an enlightened conservative. And I pointed out to you already that your sole justification for what seems to be a life-long obsession with hating unions was that a couple of union guys were once rude to you. That set you to hating all unions and doing everything you could to make yourself 'popular' to your fellow workers, who naturally returned the compliment. From all you've said, if those guys had just come over and helped you out then you'd have spent the next forty years as a happy member of the union. :-) Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 And ... as I have REPEATEDLY POINTED OUT -> if this is an economic issue as has been stated, why is Pinko the only person who has tried to advance an argument with the numbers. Yes, then he moved to New Jersey, and when I provided counter information he stopped talking about it! Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
pinko Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 WASHINGTON -- It's day four of exile for Wisconsin's Democratic state senators, who crossed state lines in order to stall the expedited passage of Gov. Scott Walker's ® budget proposal. Although many of the governor's supporters have called on them to come back to Madison, Democrats are ready to stick it out in Rockford, Ill. until Walker agrees to negotiate. (Scroll down for the latest updates) "We'll be here until Gov. Walker decides that he wants to talk," said state Sen. Tim Carpenter (D) in an interview with The Huffington Post on Saturday. He added that so far, the governor refuses to meet with them or even return the phone calls from members of the Democratic caucus. "He's just hard-lined -- will not talk, will not communicate, will not return phone calls," said Carpenter. "In a democracy, I thought we were supposed to talk. But the thing is, he's been a dictator, and just basically said this is the only thing. No amendments, and it's going to be that way." "Clearly, we offered a viable compromise at the end of last week," said state Sen. Robet Wirch (D), who is in northern Illinois, but not in Rockford with other members. "We wanted the clergy to come in and mediate this thing. But the governor just has his feet in cement." Walker's office did not respond to The Huffington Post's request for comment. On Friday, union leaders in Wisconsin agreed to the part of Walker's bill that would require public employees to double their health insurance contributions and contribute 5.8 percent of their salary to their pensions. Walker has argued that concessions by public workers are necessary in order to help the state's financial situation. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/20/wisconsin-democratic-senators-illinois_n_825748.html?utm_source=DailyBrief&utm_campaign=022111&utm_medium=email&utm_content=FeatureTitle&utm_term=Daily+Brief Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 On Friday, union leaders in Wisconsin agreed to the part of Walker's bill that would require public employees to double their health insurance contributions and contribute 5.8 percent of their salary to their pensions. Walker has argued that concessions by public workers are necessary in order to help the state's financial situation. If this hard line from Walker was just bluffing in order to get some traction in negotiations, then at least it's still about what happens in the negotiations. I'm glad to see that the union has done their part to help with the problem, they deserve praise for this. I'm afraid, though, that they will continue to be scapegoated and that their concessions will be forgotten. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
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