Jonsa Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 surprisingly in surveys done regarding scientific knowledge in the USA 20% of adults still believe the sun orbits the earth... If asked the same questions what percentage of canadians would get that wrong... I'm not surprised. I believe it was Eisenhower who became depressed when told that half of all americans had below average intelligence. Quote
cybercoma Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 I wish to propose a possible alternative to an Intelligent Designer that may not yet have been considered. I call it "Unintelligent Non-Design". Briefly, the theory is that the universe was created by complete accident by a completely unintelligent entity that exists outside of space and time. In some faiths and traditions, this entity is known as Jiffy the Space-Dog... but may be known by other names in other traditions, or might not be known to any faith or tradition at all. Jiffy The Space-Dog. Our unintelligent non-designer! -k [ Just to take from kimmy's point here, I would like to offer a website with links to 41 more alternatives:http://www.magictails.com/creationlinks.html Quote
dre Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) You need to troll harder or get better at acting ignorant. Creation and evolution are two different things, that talk about two completely different topics. I tried to point that out as well. Evolution is simply an increase over time in the number of animals in a population that have diferent hereditary traits. The fact that this occurs is not disputable. But that doesnt conflict with god as a creator but just requires subtle changes to religious mythology. Natural Selection is another distinct subject that covers whats driving the evolution that undeniably exists and thats really strong science as well, though more time should be spent documenting and repeating our observations. But natural selection doesnt necessarily conflict with god as a creator EITHER but requires more small changes in religious mythology. Finally you have the question of whether or nor the previous theories apply to humans even if those theories ARE correct. This is another type of study that has us looking a fossil records, digging holes in the ground, etc. More work is required here and we dont have the whole fossil record yet, but its also pretty sound and well tested science. The thing is... you could craft a relatively coherent theology that accepts ALL THREE of those things. You would just have to less biblical stores literally, which is the direction that religion has been going in for hundreds of years ANYWAYS, in order to reconcile their faith with the new things we learn about people and nature. And thats exactly whats happening, and thats whats gonna keep happening. Theres plenty of religious people that are zealous proponents of evolution. Theres religious biology proffesors teaching it, and religious scienctists studying it. They obviously just find a way to compartmentalize those two belief sets and somehow adjust their perception to allow for both to inhabit their brains at once. Edited February 6, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 "Well, nobody has come up with proof of anything else, so obviously God did it!" Brought to you by the same minds who knew that maggots spontaneously generate in spoiled meat. I wish to propose a possible alternative to an Intelligent Designer that may not yet have been considered. I call it "Unintelligent Non-Design". Briefly, the theory is that the universe was created by complete accident by a completely unintelligent entity that exists outside of space and time. In some faiths and traditions, this entity is known as Jiffy the Space-Dog... but may be known by other names in other traditions, or might not be known to any faith or tradition at all. Jiffy The Space-Dog. Our unintelligent non-designer! -k Your theory is obviously horse shit, and I can PROVE IT! Oh WAIT!... I cant, can I!... Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
betsy Posted February 6, 2011 Author Report Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) Don’t despair. There are alternative theories that attempt to explain the cause of the beginning of the universe. One such theory is that it began from nothing. Quentin Smith stated in 1993 that the only rational explanation for the beginning of the universe is that it came “from nothing, by nothing, and for nothing.” Later, in 2006, Daniel Dennett proclaimed that the universe created itself. This must mean either that the universe existed before it existed, which of course is absurd, or that it was created from nothing... Let’s see if this leads to any valuable conclusion... If atheism is true, then God is non-existent. However, if atheism is false, then God exists. According to Smith and Dennett, “nothing” created the universe. It does lead to some interesting speculation. Nothing is the absence of space-time, the total lack of a material world. It is, atheistically speaking, the condition that would be if the universe did not exist – non-existence would be total and absolute. But theistically speaking, it is the spiritual realm, beyond and transcending Space-Time where God exists. Now it follows that if the atheistic “nothing” created the universe, then the universe cannot exist because, as science knows, nothing can be created from nothing. But obviously the universe exists, and science has shown that it also began. Therefore the theistic “nothing,” the First-Cause, God, created the universe. Therefore, God exists. Therefore atheism is false. But don’t worry – you’ll find another job. Edited February 6, 2011 by betsy Quote
guyser Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 But obviously the universe exists, and science has shown that it also began. Therefore the theistic “nothing,” the First-Cause, God, created the universe. Therefore, God exists. Therefore atheism is false. But don’t worry – you’ll find another job. Ok. Couple of Q's...Who created God? And when thats explained, please tell me who created that who created God? Quote
dre Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) Dont despair. There are alternative theories that attempt to explain the cause of the beginning of the universe. One such theory is that it began from nothing. Quentin Smith stated in 1993 that the only rational explanation for the beginning of the universe is that it came from nothing, by nothing, and for nothing. Later, in 2006, Daniel Dennett proclaimed that the universe created itself. This must mean either that the universe existed before it existed, which of course is absurd, or that it was created from nothing... Lets see if this leads to any valuable conclusion... If atheism is true, then God is non-existent. However, if atheism is false, then God exists. According to Smith and Dennett, nothing created the universe. It does lead to some interesting speculation. Nothing is the absence of space-time, the total lack of a material world. It is, atheistically speaking, the condition that would be if the universe did not exist non-existence would be total and absolute. But theistically speaking, it is the spiritual realm, beyond and transcending Space-Time where God exists. Now it follows that if the atheistic nothing created the universe, then the universe cannot exist because, as science knows, nothing can be created from nothing. But obviously the universe exists, and science has shown that it also began. Therefore the theistic nothing, the First-Cause, God, created the universe. Therefore, God exists. Therefore atheism is false. But dont worry youll find another job. The problem with that, is that your god answer doesnt really explain anything. If anything it just pushes the same question up a level. If you use God to explain how the universe came from nothing, then youre still trying to explain where "god" came from, because he couldnt have been created from nothing EITHER. So god must have created by a god that was created by a god that was created by a god. So really according to your rational there has to be an infinite loop of gods. All youve done is dig yourself a deeper hole. Then of course we also have to consider this claim in the context of OTHER claims by religious believers. Its not just creation of the universe that you people have credited god with... youve made literally thousands of such claims throughout history to explain virtually everything humans have ever not understood... thousands of different gods responsible for thousands of different things. Most of these claims we now regard as bogus... for example a few thousand years ago we believed the sun and planets were gods, but once we studied the sun and the planets more we learned they ARENT gods, then those religions became obsolete and died. So at the end of the day, theologic thinkers just dont have any damn credibility any more, and it becomes clear that all this religious believing is just something that humans are predisposed to. Its driven by our own chemistry and biology... and has nothing to do with any real truth at all. People believe in god for exactly the same reason that most children are afraid at some point that a monster is under their bed, or in their closet. People dont like to have "blind spots" in their perception, so they fill those blind spots with folklore and mythology. Whats more we have even OBSERVED these belief systems forming. We understand where religion comes from and why it happens. Its relatively well understood why you believe what you do, and it has nothing to do with whether or not any god exists. It has to do with bio-chemistry and the architecture of your brain. Im sorry if that makes you feel petty and pointless but its just the damn truth! Edited February 6, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Jonsa Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 Don’t despair. There are alternative theories that attempt to explain the cause of the beginning of the universe. One such theory is that it began from nothing. Quentin Smith stated in 1993 that the only rational explanation for the beginning of the universe is that it came “from nothing, by nothing, and for nothing.” Later, in 2006, Daniel Dennett proclaimed that the universe created itself. This must mean either that the universe existed before it existed, which of course is absurd, or that it was created from nothing... Let’s see if this leads to any valuable conclusion... If atheism is true, then God is non-existent. However, if atheism is false, then God exists. According to Smith and Dennett, “nothing” created the universe. It does lead to some interesting speculation. Nothing is the absence of space-time, the total lack of a material world. It is, atheistically speaking, the condition that would be if the universe did not exist – non-existence would be total and absolute. But theistically speaking, it is the spiritual realm, beyond and transcending Space-Time where God exists. Now it follows that if the atheistic “nothing” created the universe, then the universe cannot exist because, as science knows, nothing can be created from nothing. But obviously the universe exists, and science has shown that it also began. Therefore the theistic “nothing,” the First-Cause, God, created the universe. Therefore, God exists. Therefore atheism is false. But don’t worry – you’ll find another job. Firstly, taking philosophical thought experiments as "science" is plain wrong. Whilst there may be other hypotheses about the origins of the universe, they aren't accepted scientific theories. Obfuscation and Sophistry do not a true argument make. Secondly, you really should brush up on quantum physics as it has been demonstrated that somthing can come from nothing and actual observations have put to rest the philosophical proposition of first cause. EMAPHATICALLY. However that does not negate your position of a creator, merely destroys one of the cornerstones of your argument. Thirdly, on one hand you argue that humans cannot possibly become omniscient, then on the other you speculate and even attempt to apply logic and derive conclusions about an existence before our space/time universe existed. I guess you are a tad more evolved than the rest of us. Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 6, 2011 Report Posted February 6, 2011 But theistically speaking, it is the spiritual realm, beyond and transcending Space-Time where God exists. Now it follows that if the atheistic “nothing” created the universe, then the universe cannot exist because, as science knows, nothing can be created from nothing. But obviously the universe exists, and science has shown that it also began. Therefore the theistic “nothing,” the First-Cause, God, created the universe. Therefore, God exists. Therefore atheism is false. But don’t worry – you’ll find another job. You're doing it again, Betsy! YOU defined 'nothing' as 'the spiritual realm'! Then you spin an argument from that self-defined premise to claim to prove God exists and atheism false! You did nothing to prove your statement that 'nothing' is the 'spiritual realm'. You just pulled it out of your butt! Until and unless you can prove your premise, your argument is worthless. It doesn't even merit being called a theory! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
CANADIEN Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 We do not know what existed before the Universe, therefore God existd... I'll stick to faith, it makes more sense. Quote
pinko Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) We do not know what existed before the Universe, therefore God existd... I'll stick to faith, it makes more sense. That is a quantum leap in logic my friend. I notice you have used the past tense in describing the existence of your god. Edited February 7, 2011 by pinko Quote
Oleg Bach Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Creation and evolution are the same thing - There is not element of time envolved here - in eternity a secont is a trillion years and a trillion years a second...so what's the big deal - and as for the big bang theory....it is as if NOTHING not even a vacume existed then suddenly from nothing sprung a whole lot of something - sorry folks - to creat something out of nothing is call a CREATION. Quote
GostHacked Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Creation and evolution are the same thing - There is not element of time envolved here - in eternity a secont is a trillion years and a trillion years a second...so what's the big deal - and as for the big bang theory....it is as if NOTHING not even a vacume existed then suddenly from nothing sprung a whole lot of something - sorry folks - to creat something out of nothing is call a CREATION. However, there has to be something in order to create something out of nothing. And if this something is within this nothingness, then you have a whole new question to answer. Quote
cybercoma Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 Wait a minute. Did betsy just admit that God is nothing? Quote
cybercoma Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 And if something that exists needs to be created by something else, then God's existence is contingent upon being created by something else? I'm confused. Quote
CANADIEN Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 That is a quantum leap in logic my friend. I notice you have used the past tense in describing the existence of your god. Nope. I typed d instead of s Quote
The_Squid Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 We do not know what existed before the Universe, therefore God existd... I'll stick to faith, it makes more sense. Why are you so sure it was the Christian God and not another god or team of gods? Quote
lukin Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 You're doing it again, Betsy! YOU defined 'nothing' as 'the spiritual realm'! Then you spin an argument from that self-defined premise to claim to prove God exists and atheism false! You did nothing to prove your statement that 'nothing' is the 'spiritual realm'. You just pulled it out of your butt! Until and unless you can prove your premise, your argument is worthless. It doesn't even merit being called a theory! Wild Bill, have you ever read a book titled "The Language of God" by Francis Collins? Maybe you would find it interesting. Quote
bloodyminded Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 I wanted to expand on this point because it illustrates how literal biblical creationists are sort of barking up the wrong tree when it comes to atheists. Atheists pose the SMALLEST threat to biblical literalism. The real threat comes from inside the Christian faith from its hundreds of millions of followers. THEY will be the ones that drag the church and fundamentalists kicking and screaming into the modern world just like they always have been. Guys like Jack Webber that are able to construct for themselves a way of thinking that can accomodate both empyrical and doctrinal sets of belief. Atheists are barely relevant. We are tiny percentage of the worlds population... probably less than 3%. We have no common goals, no common cause, and no organization, and the vast majority of us could care less what other people believe. Christians are rejecting literalism and they will continue to do so in increasing numbers. They will accept evolution in time just like they accepted galileos theories on planets and orbits. And whats more they are accepting these things much faster now that they cant no longer massacre their philophical opponents, and burn their books. The attack on literalism and fundamentalism is an INSIDE JOB! !! Well said, great points. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Wild Bill Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Wild Bill, have you ever read a book titled "The Language of God" by Francis Collins? Maybe you would find it interesting. Nope! Is it as good as a Robert B. Parker crime novel? Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
bloodyminded Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 "Well, nobody has come up with proof of anything else, so obviously God did it!" Brought to you by the same minds who knew that maggots spontaneously generate in spoiled meat. I wish to propose a possible alternative to an Intelligent Designer that may not yet have been considered. I call it "Unintelligent Non-Design". Briefly, the theory is that the universe was created by complete accident by a completely unintelligent entity that exists outside of space and time. In some faiths and traditions, this entity is known as Jiffy the Space-Dog... but may be known by other names in other traditions, or might not be known to any faith or tradition at all. Jiffy The Space-Dog. Our unintelligent non-designer! -k I would also posit the notion of Malevolent Design. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
cybercoma Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 no one has proposed an alternative to an Intelligent Designer as the cause of the beginning of the universe I provided a weblink with several alternatives to the hypothetical proposition that your intelligent designer created the universe. I'm honestly curious what you think of the numerous creation stories that have existed throughout the ages. In particular, I'm interested in what you believe distinguishes your particular creation story from all the others that have existed. Quote
bloodyminded Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 I provided a weblink with several alternatives to the hypothetical proposition that your intelligent designer created the universe. I'm honestly curious what you think of the numerous creation stories that have existed throughout the ages. In particular, I'm interested in what you believe distinguishes your particular creation story from all the others that have existed. To carry on with this quite sensible line of thought: who was the atheist who said (to paraphrase): "all religious people disbelieve in every religion, except one. I merely take this a single step further"? Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
cybercoma Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 To carry on with this quite sensible line of thought: who was the atheist who said (to paraphrase): "all religious people disbelieve in every religion, except one. I merely take this a single step further"? It's a quote from a newsgroup a number of years ago. I've said it and some others have as well. There are something like 3700 deities that we know about historically. Christians believe in 1. That means they are atheists regarding the other 3699 deities. Quote
Black Dog Posted February 11, 2011 Report Posted February 11, 2011 Mankind will never grasp the mystery of the Big Bang Theory. I mean: it's a terrible show, yet so popular! Why? Quote
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