Raising the US debt ceiling

[eyeball]

Greece is in trouble in large part because so many of its citizens avoid paying taxes, btw.

This isn't that untrue of the US too, especially the higher up the food chain you go.

[Oleg Bach]

Magic= trickery.... This is nature at work and the laws of phyisics striking America in the face - a God slap! You can not continue to make something out of nothing for ever - you have to manufacture things that make the quality of life better..America and ourselves are depended on China and other large slave labour camps - who produce mostly things that we do not really need or things of such poor quality that they fill our landfill sites...The grandest mistake was to have profits and the making of more profits rule our actions...More money is fun and they buying of goods is fine _ I would say of the trillions owed to China - we did not get our monies worth - for every 10 dollars we sent to China and or borrowed we got good that were worth 50 cents======China should name one of their new aircraft carriers the SS Walmart.

[dre]

What have they refused to pay to date?

They havent refused to pay anything yet. So far we just seem to have a political game of chicken. Its an odd game though because like I said congress is threatening to make it impossible to fund their own directed spending... they are basically threatening to force a default if they dont get what they want.

Maybe they just wanna push it right to the end... or maybe they want to force Obama to make an end-run around congress, and raise the funds himself... by issues trillion dollar platinum coins or selling the treasury some sort option.

[bush_cheney2004]

They havent refused to pay anything yet. So far we just seem to have a political game of chicken. Its an odd game though because like I said congress is threatening to make it impossible to fund their own directed spending... they are basically threatening to force a default if they dont get what they want.

What Congress giveth...Congress can taketh away. There will be no default now that they have Obama's attention.

[dre]

What Congress giveth...Congress can taketh away. There will be no default now that they have Obama's attention.

From what I can tell the republicans CANT force a default even if they wanted to. If they refuse to raise the debt cieling Obama will have to print the money, or sell the treasury some kind made up financial instrument.

[Bitsy]

you: this is their debt that they now are refusing to pay

me: What have they refused to pay to date?

you: All debts have been paid

So you are apparently seeing into the future and making a worst-case scenario judgement and stating it as fact ............ Which is far different from "too nuanced."

I am not reading tealeaves for the future but I do read reputable news sources.

The Treasury Department was making difficult political and financial calculations Friday as officials finalized contingency plans to manage the nation’s finances and keep the government operating if its debt ceiling is not raised.

Department officials were also determining when to detail those plans to the public and calculating just how much money will be available to fund government obligations if lawmakers miss Tuesday’s deadline to raise the ceiling.

The Treasury has already decided to save enough cash to cover $29 billion in interest to bondholders, a bill that comes due Aug. 15, according to people familiar with the matter.

Projections computed by outside analysts show that the Treasury is likely to have enough cash to make most payments on Wednesday, including Social Security.

But officials were not yet certain which payments they could make because they didn’t know how much money they’ll have, according to people familiar with the matter. Government funding levels — a mixture of spending, borrowing and tax revenue — are becoming increasingly volatile as the deadline over the debt ceiling approaches, making it harder for officials to predict cash levels.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/treasury-making-hard-choices-in-case-of-default/2011/07/29/gIQA1kGFiI_story.html?hpid=z1

[Bitsy]

The social programs are a big problem, social security is nothing but a ponzi scheme, it can't work. As for the wars, they should end them, they should also end the war on drugs and get rid of the DEA. There are many areas that need to be cut, I would suggest getting rid of the CIA as well, the CIA is nothing but a terrorist organization.

Your original post seemed to imply that it was only our social program to blame for the debt, I am glad that you clarified that.

[Guest American Woman]

They havent refused to pay anything yet.

Correct. Which makes this statement - "this is their debt that they now are refusing to pay" - an incorrect statement.

So far we just seem to have a political game of chicken. Its an odd game though because like I said congress is threatening to make it impossible to fund their own directed spending... they are basically threatening to force a default if they dont get what they want.

They may get what they want or they may consent at the last minute. Perhaps they want people to sweat it out. Obama to sweat it out. To make Obama look bad. Which he does. He's got his lowest approval rating ever.

But to say that they are refusing to pay the debt is not a correct statement.

Maybe they just wanna push it right to the end...

This has been my feeling right along. I never expected anything else. We have not reached "the end," so one cannot draw any final conclusions.

[pinko]

Correct. Which makes this statement - "this is their debt that they now are refusing to pay" - an incorrect statement.

They may get what they want or they may consent at the last minute. Perhaps they want people to sweat it out. Obama to sweat it out. To make Obama look bad. Which he does. He's got his lowest approval rating ever.

But to say that they are refusing to pay the debt is not a correct statement.

This has been my feeling right along. I never expected anything else. We have not reached "the end," so one cannot draw any final conclusions.

One conclusion I have reached is that there is something fundamentally wrong with the American system. Although it is fascinating to watch the posturing and antics being displayed in the lead up to the deadline it strikes me that some in the Congress appear willing to take the economy over the cliff without regard to the consequences that flow from that.

[Guest American Woman]

One conclusion I have reached is that there is something fundamentally wrong with the American system.

I understand that you feel that way. You've made that quite clear. Yet America, and the American system, have done very well. I like the way our government is set up, with people electing their congressmen, the checks and balance system, and a congress that takes into consideration both equality of state and fair representation of population, and a constitution that can be amended but really seldom is as it's not something that can be, and is, done on a whim.

Although it is fascinating to watch the posturing and antics being displayed in the lead up to the deadline it strikes me that some in the Congress appear willing to take the economy over the cliff without regard to the consequences that flow from that.

What's so fascinating about it? Seriously. To me it's just politics as usual. Grandstanding that only gets attention if the people give it attention. It will be what it will be. All the projecting, all the claims based on "what might be" are a waste of time. It will be what it is in the end. So I will not draw any conclusions until the end. What "it appears to be now" may turn out to be something very different in the end.

But no matter what, America is not doomed. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the system. Ultimately, if the American people don't like how their congressmen have performed, we the people will vote them out - and vote someone else in. They aren't appointed by political parties, they aren't serving for life, they aren't above being voted out by the people.

It's a system that has served us well thus far and will continue to do the same.

[pinko]

I understand that you feel that way. You've made that quite clear. Yet America, and the American system, have done very well. I like the way our government is set up, with people electing their congressmen, the checks and balance system, and a congress that takes into consideration both equality of state and fair representation of population, and a constitution that can be amended but really seldom is as it's not something that can be, and is, done on a whim.

What's so fascinating about it? Seriously. To me it's just politics as usual. Grandstanding that only gets attention if the people give it attention. It will be what it will be. All the projecting, all the claims based on "what might be" are a waste of time. It will be what it is in the end. So I will not draw any conclusions until the end. What "it appears to be now" may turn out to be something very different in the end.

But no matter what, America is not doomed. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the system. Ultimately, if the American people don't like how their congressmen have performed, we the people will vote them out - and vote someone else in. They aren't appointed by political parties, they aren't serving for life, they aren't above being voted out by the people.

It's a system that has served us well thus far and will continue to do the same.

You say:

"a constitution that can be amended but really seldom is as it's not something that can be, and is, done on a whim."

Yet at the 11th hour the tea party element in the Republican Party is attempting to impose a balanced budget amendment which has no chance of being endorsed within the two or three days reamining until the deadline.

What distinguishes the current crisis from others in the past is the impact this irresponsible behaviour on the part of your legislative branch will have on the rest of the world.

[Guest American Woman]

You say:

"a constitution that can be amended but really seldom is as it's not something that can be, and is, done on a whim."

Which is true.

Yet at the 11th hour the tea party element in the Republican Party is attempting to impose a balanced budget amendment which has no chance of being endorsed within the two or three days reamining until the deadline.

The key word there is "attempting." And as you yourself point out, there are still days remaining before the deadline. There's a reason a horse race is not called until the last second - because what happens during the race is irrelevant in the end. The only thing that matters is the final outcome. So we still have time, Congress still has time, yet people are acting as if it's a done deal. I don't understand that.

What distinguishes the current crisis from others in the past is the impact this irresponsible behaviour on the part of your legislative branch will have on the rest of the world.

Which has to do with decisions "the rest of the world" have made, right? How else would that have come to be? Yet the U.S. is to blame? The U.S. is responsible for the rest of the world - which, of course, never acts "irresponsibly?"

[pinko]

Which is true.

The key word there is "attempting." And as you yourself point out, there are still days remaining before the deadline. There's a reason a horse race is not called until the last second - because what happens during the race is irrelevant in the end. The only thing that matters is the final outcome. So we still have time, Congress still has time, yet people are acting as if it's a done deal. I don't understand that.

Which has to do with decisions "the rest of the world" have made, right? How else would that have come to be? Yet the U.S. is to blame? The U.S. is responsible for the rest of the world - which, of course, never acts "irresponsibly?"

At the moment all eyes are on the USA and the choice made by the Republican Party to link the debt renewal process to ongoing discussions about your current fiscal situation. In that context the impact of such reckless behaviour combined with the fragile state of many economies throughout the world requires true leadedrship within in your country. It remains to be seen how agreement will materialize under the current circumstances.

[Guest American Woman]

At the moment all eyes are on the USA and the choice made by the Republican Party to link the debt renewal process to ongoing discussions about your current fiscal situation. In that context the impact of such reckless behaviour combined with the fragile state of many economies throughout the world requires true leadedrship within in your country. It remains to be seen how agreement will materialize under the current circumstances.

In that context the impact of such reckless behaviour combined with the fragile state of many economies throughout the world requires true leadedrship within in your country.

I asked you how that came to be. I asked how "the rest of the world" ended up in a position where what happens in the U.S. has such an impact on "the rest of the world" and I asked you how decisions made by "the rest of the world" enters into it.

It's not "all about the U.S." and our "reckless behavior." The "rest of the world" holds accountability for their actions, their decisions, too. Which, I'm sure, have been "reckless" at times. Yet the U.S. is the only country being called on it. Why is that?

I'll ask again. Are we responsible for the whole world? Are we responsible for decisions the rest of the world have made?

Edited July 30, 2011 by American Woman

[pinko]

In that context the impact of such reckless behaviour combined with the fragile state of many economies throughout the world requires true leadedrship within in your country.

I asked you how that came to be. I asked how "the rest of the world" ended up in a position where what happens in the U.S. has such an impact on "the rest of the world" and I asked you how decisions made by "the rest of the world" enters into it.

It's not "all about the U.S." and our "reckless behavior." The "rest of the world" holds accountability for their actions, their decisions, too. Which, I'm sure, have been "reckless" at times. Yet the U.S. is the only country being called on it. Why is that?

I'll ask again. Are we responsible for the whole world? Are we responsible for decisions the rest of the world have made?

At the moment the American dollar is the default currency and for the most part has been the incubator for these so called free trade deals which have extended rights to corporations at the expense of citizens not only in the USA but throughout the world. The crisis of 2008 was, in large part, a made in the USA model which eventually infected all markets throughout the world. So in answer to your question yes the reckless behaviour on the part of the USA has been and continues to be the primary burden of the USA.

[Guest American Woman]

At the moment the American dollar is the default currency and for the most part has been the incubator for these so called free trade deals which have extended rights to corporations at the expense of citizens not only in the USA but throughout the world. The crisis of 2008 was, in large part, a made in the USA model which eventually infected all markets throughout the world. So in answer to your question yes the reckless behaviour on the part of the USA has been and continues to be the primary burden of the USA.

Alrighty then. Interesting to learn that we are responsible for the whole world's decisions. Such power!!

[Scotty]

The social programs are a big problem, social security is nothing but a ponzi scheme, it can't work. As for the wars, they should end them, they should also end the war on drugs and get rid of the DEA. There are many areas that need to be cut, I would suggest getting rid of the CIA as well, the CIA is nothing but a terrorist organization.

Do you have any clue how dumb that sounds to sane people?

[Scotty]

you: this is their debt that they now are refusing to pay

me: What have they refused to pay to date?

you: All debts have been paid

So you are apparently seeing into the future and making a worst-case scenario judgement and stating it as fact ............ Which is far different from "too nuanced."

You have this habit, AM, of getting into desperately nit-picking arguments over semantics.

The meaning is clear. The congress approved a budget of X dollars for the current fiscal. It knew when it did so that it would run into the debt ceiling. Now, all of a sudden, it's refusing to raise the debt ceiling so the government can spend that money and pay its bills. All across America there are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of businesses which have supplied services and goods to the United States government over the past few months who the congress is refusing, at this stage, to allow to be paid.

[pinko]

Alrighty then. Interesting to learn that we are responsible for the whole world's decisions. Such power!!

With power comes responsibility. In that regard it is about time your leaders started to act responsibly.

[Guest American Woman]

With power comes responsibility. In that regard it is about time your leaders started to act responsibly.

Yes. No other leaders have to. Because it's all about the U.S. No one else has to take responsibility for their actions. Because the U.S. is more powerful.

Got'cha.

[pinko]

Yes. No other leaders have to. Because it's all about the U.S. No one else has to take responsibility for their actions. Because the U.S. is more powerful.

Got'cha.

Yes

[Guest American Woman]

You have this habit, AM, of getting into desperately nit-picking arguments over semantics.

It has nothing to do with "semantics." The statement was not a true statement.

The meaning is clear. The congress approved a budget of X dollars for the current fiscal. It knew when it did so that it would run into the debt ceiling. Now, all of a sudden, it's refusing to raise the debt ceiling so the government can spend that money and pay its bills.

Ummm. It's not over yet. You do realize that, don't you?

All across America there are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of businesses which have supplied services and goods to the United States government over the past few months who the congress is refusing, at this stage, to allow to be paid.

Congress is not "refusing" at any stage for anyone to be allowed to be paid. THEY AREN'T UP FOR PAYMENT YET. How can what they are doing NOW translate to what they may do THEN? If it all works out, Congress didn't "refuse to pay" anyone. It's all speculation, no more, no less - until it's over.

And that has nothing to do with "semantics" and everything to do with the way it actually is.

[Guest American Woman]

Yes

Wow. What a sad, irresponsible outlook.

[Scotty]

I understand that you feel that way. You've made that quite clear. Yet America, and the American system, have done very well.

The Roman Empire did quite well for a time. Then it collapsed due to mismanagement and ennui.

The problem with your system is it was deliberately set up to have no center of power, to have conflicting centers of power. That was okay, though complicated, in the past, when the difference between most Republicans and most Democrats was not all that great. But that distance has been growing and growing and is now so great that the two parties find it difficult to work together and compromise over anything at all.

Californians have different wants and needs, different opinions on a wide variety of subjects than the people in Wyoming. The people in Wyoming have quite different opinions than the people in New York. New Yorkers are not nearly the same on many issues as the people of Utah, who differ markedly from the people of Nevada. You can't rule a country like that without compromise, but 'compromise' is now a dirty word to many Republicans. The nonsense in Congress is a perfect example of that.

Democrat. Okay, tell you what, we'll compromise. We'll do 50/50 tax cuts and spending.

Republican. No. I want all cuts.

Democrat. Well, tell you what, how about we go 70/30?

Republican. No. I want all cuts.

Democrat. Well, okay, all cuts, but we need the rise to last through 2012

Republican. No, We want to be able to use it against you in the coming election. We'll do it for eight months only.

Democrats. Come on, you gotta give me something. After all, you only control one house. We control the other and the government.

Republican. Not only will I give you nothing but I'm tacking on a mandatory constitutional amendment. Eat that!

And then Boner boy cries about how far he stuck his neck out to do a deal with the White House. Geeeeze.

[Scotty]

Which has to do with decisions "the rest of the world" have made, right? How else would that have come to be? Yet the U.S. is to blame? The U.S. is responsible for the rest of the world - which, of course, never acts "irresponsibly?"

The US basically caused the present recession through massive corruption and government mismanagement. Now, as its easing, the US is threatening to send the world back into recession through more political incompetence and mismanagement.

And you wonder why governments and business all over the world is looking on in contempt?