The crisis in Egypt

[GWiz]

It was Egypt - that created Christianity...not Judea. It was Egypt that was the birthplace of civilzation...and Egypt must not go the way of Iraq..>I suggest that all those interlopers that want to get in on the action simply F off and mind their own buisness - and let the family of Egypt work out it's own problems and evolve naturally from within...This buisness of oil stocks going up because of the fear of the closing of the cannal shows the great perversity of our monetary system...shame on those that gather wealth though the mayhem and misfortune of others...America and the evil EU should keep their dirty hands off of Egypt...and so should the Islamic hooligan gangsters.

Damn, I hate doing this, if you're making a list, we're on it too...

[bush_cheney2004]

You know, trolling isn't half as fun as you make it out to be. It certainly doesn't require any effort or skill. That ish kinda gets old fast - have you really been keeping that up for years? Wouldn't you rather be outside playing sports with all those days of time you've racked up each year? Or seeing friends? Or flirting with women/men? Kinda sad if you ask me.

I can do all those things and "troll" too. I don't have to run away for months at a time...and it is still a lot of fun for me.

Do you also presume to know what's best for other forum members?

[bush_cheney2004]

Damn, I hate doing this, if you're making a list, we're on it too...

Right you are, but you sir..blaspheme! There shall be no mention of Canada's role, past or present, in the untidy affairs of the world. Remember Canada's motto....Blame America the USA! ...while being the biggest economic partner at the same time.

Edited February 1, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[GWiz]

Interesting backgrounder:

The Suez Crisis contributed to the adoption of a new national flag for Canada in 1965, without references to that country's past as a colony of France and Britain. The Egyptian government had objected to Canadian peacekeeping troops on the grounds that their flag at that time included a British ensign. As Prime Minister, Pearson would advocate the simple Maple Leaf that was eventually adopted.

Hey you old troll quit going to MY links and getting info to use on here, eh...

Trolls are a dirty underclass creatures that remain in the dark, don't you know anything?

Be yourself...

ps-you forgot to add the link...

[GWiz]

Right you are, but you sir..blaspheme! There shall be no mention of Canada's role, past or present, in the untidy affairs of the world. Remember Canada's motto....Blame America the USA! ...while being the biggest economic partner at the same time.

Ahhh, duplicity, ain't it great?

[Bob]

With respect, this is a country in which even Christians are persecuted. The fact Jews are virtually all gone from Egypt also bespeaks the level of discomfort they suffered while still in residence.

Perhaps your hosts were happy at you being a Jew after you had already expressed their solidarity with their views. I have noticed that many groups, especially the most radical, in terms of their hatred of Israel, love to find Jews to agree with them. It's sort of like the Republican Party proud of their few Blacks.

To suggest these people bear no animosity towards Jews in general given the cultural primitiveness expressed in their support for stoning and executions over religious and moral crimes possess a sense of enlightenment and religious tolerance strikes me as highly unlikely.

Absolutely. Well put. Egypt virtually cleansed itself entirely of its Jewish population. According to Wikipedia, Egypt used to have around eighty thousand Jews in the 1920s. After Israel's establishment and the virulent growth of anti-Semitism arising from rejection of Jewish independence in Israel, Egypt removed its Jewish population. Obviously I am oversimplifying the story, but anti-Semitism was rampant - mass murders, bombings, attacks, and arrest all targeted at the Jewish community and completely unjustifiable. Basically, Egyptian anti-Semitism broke out of the kitchen table conversations and into the streets. In the 50s, Jews were forced to flee and had their property confiscated from them.

Clearly JB Globe is trying to downplay this, as he doesn't want to consider the possibility that his little anecdote with nice folks in Egypt just isn't that important. Perhaps a few days with a select few people in Egypt doesn't give you much insight into the broader Egyptian psyche.

I won't share my anecdotes of conversations I've had with with seniors who fled Egypt during the 50s and came to Israel.

Anyways JB Globe, don't mind us shattering your illusions of Egyptian modernity and tolerance with reality. Feel free to carry on with your fantasy generalizations of Egyptian liberalism. The cynic in me feels that Scotty is completely right when he suggests that you, in a way, became the useful idiot that anti-Semites and anti-Zionists love - a Jew who will listen intently and nod understandingly while they spew their vile perspectives.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hey you old troll quit going to MY links and getting info to use on here, eh...

Your link? Wikipedia, Google, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube are all....American

You're welcome!

[bush_cheney2004]

...Clearly JB Globe is trying to downplay this, as he doesn't want to consider the possibility that his little anecdote with nice folks in Egypt just isn't that important. Perhaps a few days with a select few people in Egypt doesn't give you much insight into the broader Egyptian psyche.

This is exactly the same turn of events that forced this member to retreat some time ago. He would get into many dust-ups as the resident "self-hating" Jew. Ahhhh...old times.

[bud]

Absolutely. Well put. Egypt virtually cleansed itself entirely of its Jewish population. According to Wikipedia, Egypt used to have around eighty thousand Jews in the 1920s. After Israel's establishment and the virulent growth of anti-Semitism arising from rejection of Jewish independence in Israel, Egypt removed its Jewish population. Obviously I am oversimplifying the story,

you don't say.

but anti-Semitism was rampant - mass murders, bombings, attacks, and arrest all targeted at the Jewish community and completely unjustifiable.

but for some reason, the murders, bombings, attacks and arrests of palestinians in and outside of israel are justifiable, right?

how can you stand yourself and your double standards?

[Bob]

This is exactly the same turn of events that forced this member to retreat some time ago. He would get into many dust-ups as the resident "self-hating" Jew. Ahhhh...old times.

Although I hate that term, "self-hating Jew", sometimes it's valid. I'm not going to attach that label to JB Globe at this time, but I just think he's seriously mislead. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong and deep inside most Egyptians is a freedom-loving American waiting to come out.... but for several reasons I'm not so sure.

How about this reason? A majority of Egyptians want gender segregation at the workplace. Or maybe this reason: 82% of Egyptians support the death penalty for those Muslims who leave Islam? Perhaps JB Globe's friends were from the 18% opposed to executing apostates?

[bush_cheney2004]

Although I hate that term, "self-hating Jew", sometimes it's valid. I'm not going to attach that label to JB Globe at this time, but I just think he's seriously mislead. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong and deep inside most Egyptians is a freedom-loving American waiting to come out.... but for several reasons I'm not so sure.

By all means, take your time to assess the situation. I am not the first one here to make such a claim.

[pinko]

Takes TWO (or more) to tangle my friend, takes TWO...

Hell, I remember a semi Super Power going half way around the world to take back a virtually worthless Island by force and they were both Christian countries... Takes two...

That wouldn't be the Falkland Islands debacle by any chance?

[GostHacked]

A superpower's job is never done. You just wouldn't understand!

I understand, and it seems others around the world are understanding it as well.

OK...but it is interesting that anti-American attitudes are readily tolerated and even encouraged, but turnabout is met with such surprise. It's perfectly normal to criticize Canadian policies too, no?

Stop your whining. If you want to police the world, you have to take it all.

[GostHacked]

I can do all those things and "troll" too. I don't have to run away for months at a time...and it is still a lot of fun for me.

Do you also presume to know what's best for other forum members?

Does America know what's best for other countries?

[Rue]

Does America know what's best for other countries?

Actually the question was designed to really state America does not know what is best for other countries. That was your intent. Ironically I could argue sometimes it does know what's best for other countries because it has open dialogue with those countries and simply asks.

The U.S. props unpopular leaders in countries. So does Canada and every other nation on this planet..so what is your point exactly-that nations prop governments not popular with the natives but good for their own financial interests? Did you just notice that now? Do you think it is specific to the US?

This constant US bashing as an adjunct to discussing Egypt is as interesting as the anti Israel comments. There is a need by some to scapegoat and look for targets to blame things on.

No one should be surprised using Israel or the US as the scapegoat. Its a way for the Muslim brotherhood to rally people. Traditionally in the Middle East when your economy collapses due to coruption and instability you burn an Israeli or American flag. Works every time. Beats having to be responsible for your own actions.

Beats be

[Rue]

I understand, and it seems others around the world are understanding it as well.

Stop your whining. If you want to police the world, you have to take it all.

He whines no more then you do if that is the word you want to use. He has a right to defend the US and complain about those who criticize it as much as you do criticizing the U.S.

As for the US wanting to police the world, you miss something. In your world I guess you miss all the countries that whine about the US but are the first to demand and take aid and benefits from it. That is his point. You can't have it both ways. You can't have it all either. You can't expect the US to carry the world with its navy and aid, and then sit around and let people take insults at it.

Many countries have benefited from the US being the policeman of the world-the very same countries that sheeyit on it.

You ask me which you did not lol, I say, you want to whine about the US don't take a friggin penny or benefit from it.

[GostHacked]

Actually the question was designed to really state America does not know what is best for other countries. That was your intent. Ironically I could argue sometimes it does know what's best for other countries because it has open dialogue with those countries and simply asks.

It may be one thing to know what is best for another country, but it is another to go in, change their government because it makes you safer, but does the exact opposite.

The U.S. props unpopular leaders in countries. So does Canada and every other nation on this planet..so what is your point exactly-that nations prop governments not popular with the natives but good for their own financial interests? Did you just notice that now? Do you think it is specific to the US?

It's been going on for decades. Canada is no more innocent than the US is or Britain in propping up dictators around the world. We simply need to stop doing this and let them figure things out for themselves.

This constant US bashing as an adjunct to discussing Egypt is as interesting as the anti Israel comments. There is a need by some to scapegoat and look for targets to blame things on.

When the west, and especially the US, props up a guy like Mubarak, which is a dictator (no denying that) for the last 30 years, do you think the US is going to get a free pass on this? Absolutely not. Place blame where it belongs. Biden called Mubarak an ally of the US, and a friend to the US. As has other American leaders. You can hear what they are saying and that is more than enough for me to know and understand that the US wants Mubarak to stay in power. They don't care what kind of government evolves from this, as long as they can keep their puppet Mubarak in power.

No one should be surprised using Israel or the US as the scapegoat.

I can't say for Israel, but the US is not being used as a scapegoat. The US is complicit in propping up Mubarak for the last 30 years. They do deserve part of the blame.

Its a way for the Muslim brotherhood to rally people. Traditionally in the Middle East when your economy collapses due to coruption and instability you burn an Israeli or American flag. Works every time. Beats having to be responsible for your own actions.

If you read some of my other posts, the Muslim Brotherhood is not an option that should be considered. I don't support them because then Egypt will be hijacked and brought into an Islamic state which will definitely be a threat to Israel. As you know I am no fan of Israel, but I do not wish this upon them.

[GostHacked]

Some interesting and very striking pics for you all to look at.

http://totallycoolpix.com/2011/01/the-egypt-protests/

[GWiz]

That wouldn't be the Falkland Islands debacle by any chance?

You win...

[Bob]

Gosthacked - Things aren't as simple as you make them out to be. You say that the USA should let other countries figure things out on their own. How can the USA stand idly by when these events affect the USA? The USA will be affected by the outcome of these events, so it can only be expected to operate in its interests. Obviously the needs of the USA must be balanced against other questions of justice and morality, and it's not an easy thing to do. Let me add that when I talk about American interests, I am not talking about simplistic issue, but vital issues. Regular and dependable access to affordable oil isn't small potatoes.

You criticize the USA for "propping up" Mubarak. Let's assume the USA withdrew its support from Egypt, which has been averaging two billion dollars per year since 1979. Do you not realize how much this support has benefited Egyptians in certain ways? Every dollar provided to Egypt is a dollar freed from the government purse. Of course much of the aid has been in the form of military aid, and of course impoverished people can't eat bullets or live in tanks when they're hungry and homeless. Still, the money the regime saved through the aid, whether given in cash, military, or other goods and services, has benefited Egyptians.

Lastly, what is the USA to do? Do you think the USA had a choice between supporting a free liberal democracy in Egypt on the one hand, and dictatorial Mubarak on the other? The country is what it is, and America must deal with it the way it is. America certainly does not have the ability to create a free and beautiful world for all. Conversely, America does not have the ability to establish dictatorships and oppressive regimes as is often alleged by the typical anti-America crowd. For the last time, America must deal with the world the way it is, and not the way you wish it was. It's called reality.

[bush_cheney2004]

When the west, and especially the US, props up a guy like Mubarak, which is a dictator (no denying that) for the last 30 years, do you think the US is going to get a free pass on this? Absolutely not. Place blame where it belongs. Biden called Mubarak an ally of the US, and a friend to the US.

That's because he is/was. PM Chretien felt the same way about Mubarak and Canada.

As has other American leaders. You can hear what they are saying and that is more than enough for me to know and understand that the US wants Mubarak to stay in power. They don't care what kind of government evolves from this, as long as they can keep their puppet Mubarak in power.

Not true...the US has asked Mubarak to step aside in an orderly way. You are wrong...again.

I can't say for Israel, but the US is not being used as a scapegoat. The US is complicit in propping up Mubarak for the last 30 years. They do deserve part of the blame.

Then scapegoat all the other nations as well.

If you read some of my other posts, the Muslim Brotherhood is not an option that should be considered. I don't support them because then Egypt will be hijacked and brought into an Islamic state which will definitely be a threat to Israel. As you know I am no fan of Israel, but I do not wish this upon them.

Yes they are an option....and political organization can function to facilitate a transition to something different and/or better. All you are doing is expressing an opinion that sounds a lot like what the "evil USA" has done for years.

[GWiz]

Does America know what's best for other countries?

Please rephrase that to:

- Does America THINK it knows what's best for other countries? -

Could be a different answer...

Less so NOW with Obama than the previous admin....

Edited February 1, 2011 by GWiz

[bush_cheney2004]

....It's been going on for decades. Canada is no more innocent than the US is or Britain in propping up dictators around the world. We simply need to stop doing this and let them figure things out for themselves.

Great...I've been waiting for this brilliant comment....rewind to 1956 and the Suez Crisis. You are advocating for no action by the USA or USSR when France, Britain, and Israel violently moved on the canal after Nasser nationalized it.

Egypt remembers this, but obviously you don't.

[Bob]

JB Globe - Allow me to ask you a simple question. Do you think the video I posted in here with the Egyptian protestors/rioters speaking with Nic Robertson is an example of anti-Semitism? Is wishing for the destruction of Israel anti-Semitic?

[GostHacked]

Gosthacked - Things aren't as simple as you make them out to be. You say that the USA should let other countries figure things out on their own. How can the USA stand idly by when these events affect the USA? The USA will be affected by the outcome of these events, so it can only be expected to operate in its interests. Obviously the needs of the USA must be balanced against other questions of justice and morality, and it's not an easy thing to do. Let me add that when I talk about American interests, I am not talking about simplistic issue, but vital issues. Regular and dependable access to affordable oil isn't small potatoes.

Well, when the US and the west (yes Canada too) meddle in the middle east for decades, you reap what you sow. The only way this affects the US is that they no longer have a man on the inside. Cry me a river.

You criticize the USA for "propping up" Mubarak. Let's assume the USA withdrew its support from Egypt, which has been averaging two billion dollars per year since 1979. Do you not realize how much this support has benefited Egyptians in certain ways? Every dollar provided to Egypt is a dollar freed from the government purse. Of course much of the aid has been in the form of military aid, and of course impoverished people can't eat bullets or live in tanks when they're hungry and homeless. Still, the money the regime saved through the aid, whether given in cash, military, or other goods and services, has benefited Egyptians.

You support the aid to Egypt, but say it takes away from the US government's purse. Really? And this all benefits Egyptians how?

And for comparison, the last round of US bank bailouts went to many foreign banks. Even the Dominion Bank of Toronto got money from that. What are you complaining about again?

Lastly, what is the USA to do?

Nothing. Sit and wait. Let the Egyptians figure it out for themselves.

Do you think the USA had a choice between supporting a free liberal democracy in Egypt on the one hand, and dictatorial Mubarak on the other?

Yes, and the US chose the dictator Mubarak.

The country is what it is, and America must deal with it the way it is.

No America already tried, now it's Egypt's turn.

America certainly does not have the ability to create a free and beautiful world for all.

Actually they have no intention of it.

Conversely, America does not have the ability to establish dictatorships and oppressive regimes as is often alleged by the typical anti-America crowd.

May not be able to set them up initially, but the US sure does help in supporting dictators, .. how much did Mubarak get? Recall Saddam Husein ? How about some Latin America dictators like Maximilio Hernández, General Manuel Noriega, Roberto Suazo Cordova, this is just to name a few.

For the last time, America must deal with the world the way it is, and not the way you wish it was. It's called reality.

Maybe it's time the USA stops. Because every time they try to make things for the better, it ends up back in their face.

Egypt is going to have to do this herself. It is no one elses problem right now but Egypt's. Let's support the people who want something better. If you don't stand with the people of Egypt you stand with continuing tyranny. Do you want to continue supporting tyranny?

Edited February 1, 2011 by GostHacked