UAE - Crybabies

[wyly]

What this has to do with this thread, however, is nothing.

Some people (not you Smallc) should check their anti-AC bias at the door on this one.

duh!!! the business of air canada has everything to do with this thread it's at the very core of the issue!!!!...the canadian military was kicked out of the UAE because our right wing pro free market government government was protecting a privately owned airline from open competition, if the Emirates isn't a threat it will collapse in direct competition with the superior AC...but the truth is AC has 2nd rate service to be avoided at any opportunity...

some people(you)should understand the thread's issue before commenting...

Edited December 29, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

My thoughts exactly.

canada has also demanded visas unilaterally as well...

[TimG]

the canadian military was kicked out of the UAE because our right wing pro free market government government was protecting a privately owned airline from open competition

Complete BS. International airline agreements are always quid quo pro affairs. If a country wants a benefit then it must provide an equivalent benefit in return. In this case the UAE could not provide that since Canadian airlines have no way to benefit from greater access to Dubai airports. On top of that you have a state owned airline competing with a privately run airline. Edited December 29, 2010 by TimG

[APC]

I just read this article a few minutes ago and I can only shake my head at these morons. Because Canada wouldn't allow their carrier additional routes for their airlines, the UAE kicked Canada out of its base in the UAE, imposed visa restrictions on Canadians, and is now forcing them to pay $1000 to get a visa to go there?

People are trying to make this out to be a diplomatic boondoggle on the government's part, but the way I see it is that we're not going to get bullied into something by a bunch of crybaby idiots who are going to fuss whenever we won't let them have their way.

I can't wait until we don't need oil anymore. Then these idiots can sit on their sand and eat it.

I disagree. Canada has a tendency to preach "free markets" when it suits us, and to go the protectionist route when it doesn't. The crux of the matter is the added sots to Emirates would be bad for Air Canada....but AC is not a Crown corporation anymore, it is a public company operating in a highly global industry. We can't hold it's hand anymore or protect it from competition.....either it can compete, or it can't.

And really, the added competition would only benefit consumers and lower fares....not to mention improve access to the growing Mid East markets. Anybody who has ever been to Dubai (When I was in Afghanistan, we went throug Camp Mirage and were allowed time off in Dubai) knows that it is a place you want to have access to if you are in business.

And speaking stricly as a traveller, when we went to Mirage, we flew from Frankfurt to Dubai on Emirates, and seriosuly, I would actaully get excited to fly if I knew I was flying Emirates again. The experience was the best I've ever had flying, by a wide margin.

Edited December 29, 2010 by APC

[Scotty]

canada has also demanded visas unilaterally as well...

Not to punish other nations, but to restrict illegal immigration.

[Wilber]

interesting how so much resistance that comes from the free market right when it comes to protecting a protecting a private companies ass...let the best airline win...

There are people on this forum who are sweaty about the Canadian government spending 9 billion on the F-35 purchase. In 2010 alone, Emirates ordered 32 A380's at a cost of 11.5 billion on top of the 58 they already operate or have on order. They also ordered 30 B777's at a cost of 9.1 billion on top of the 53 they already operate or have on order.

So lets turn Air Canada back into a government owned airline, give it unlimited financing, throw out the Air Canada Act and excempt it from most of the labour and other regulations that Canadian companies have to abide by. That way we would level the playing field and let the best airline win. Why is it so many folks think that free market rules should only apply to Canadian privately owned companies?

Edited December 29, 2010 by Wilber

[Wilber]

canada has also demanded visas unilaterally as well...

Because of trade disputes?

[Scotty]

If Emirates takes delivery of all the aircraft they have ordered, they will have 90 A380's (1/4 of all A380 orders) and 101 B777's. They are desperate for places to fly them and Canada isn't the only country they have tried to push around. The Europeans and Aussies aren't too happy with them either.

The Emerites only have a population of about 6 million - of which the majority are foreign workers. Their actual citizen population is closer to 2 million. Emeritis generally don't do actual work. Foreigners are imported to do that. Yet it's national airline is bigger than Air Canada. This says that their airline is not there to serve their population but to serve the international market.

Capitalism would say let them compete, and may the best airliner win. If they can run people between Vancouver and Toronto with a higher customer satisfaction rate than Air Canada they ought to be allowed to do that. On the other hand, that is not how the international airline market is run. If you want to run people between point A and B within a nation you're required to establish your airline within those borders and employ local people. Think what you can about that, it's how things work, and the Emerites, rather than seeking changes, have simply tried to bully their way around the rules.

[APC]

Capitalism would say let them compete, and may the best airliner win. If they can run people between Vancouver and Toronto with a higher customer satisfaction rate than Air Canada they ought to be allowed to do that. On the other hand, that is not how the international airline market is run. If you want to run people between point A and B within a nation you're required to establish your airline within those borders and employ local people. Think what you can about that, it's how things work, and the Emerites, rather than seeking changes, have simply tried to bully their way around the rules.

I must concede that point....What if sometime in the future, those routes becom unprofitable to Emirates and they stop them....but in the meantime AC has been wiped out, or a shell of it's former self, where does that leave Canadians?

But that being the case, considering air travel is - in this day and age - a necessary service, why not make AC a crwon corporation again and exempt it from regulations to make it competetive?

Just like other essential services that were once private where the business model may not be feasible anymore - firefighting, postal service to name a few - make air travel an essential service, run it at a loss if need be, and protect it from competition.

But let's drop the "free market" pretense when it comes our national airline.

[Moonbox]

But let's drop the "free market" pretense when it comes our national airline.

It is a free market. The Canadian government, however, is not about to allow foreign companies unfair advantages.

[PIK]

Thank god for harper, one thing is for sure if the libs were in power we would not own any C-17's which we were able to fly with stopping at the UAE, Which means they would have had us over a barrel and the libs for sure would have sold us out. And I would not doubt it they would have no matter what so they would not offend them.

[wyly]

Not to punish other nations, but to restrict illegal immigration.

it's the same thing, the nations being punished with visa restrictions see it the same way, canada is punishing them for the actions of private individuals...canada is telling another nation to change it's domestic politics to suit canada's interest...

[PIK]

it's the same thing, the nations being punished with visa restrictions see it the same way, canada is punishing them for the actions of private individuals...canada is telling another nation to change it's domestic politics to suit canada's interest...

And it is about fucking time, it seemed it was always us that has to change to keep everyone else happy.

[wyly]

The Emerites only have a population of about 6 million - of which the majority are foreign workers. Their actual citizen population is closer to 2 million. Emeritis generally don't do actual work. Foreigners are imported to do that. Yet it's national airline is bigger than Air Canada. This says that their airline is not there to serve their population but to serve the international market.

Capitalism would say let them compete, and may the best airliner win. If they can run people between Vancouver and Toronto with a higher customer satisfaction rate than Air Canada they ought to be allowed to do that. On the other hand, that is not how the international airline market is run. If you want to run people between point A and B within a nation you're required to establish your airline within those borders and employ local people. Think what you can about that, it's how things work, and the Emerites, rather than seeking changes, have simply tried to bully their way around the rules.

emirates can have access to all of canada for all I care, if they want to run a daily flight between calgary and fort mac or TO and Vancouver and do so with in our labour and safety standards I'm all for it...why should we have legislated loyalty to do business with a publicly traded company merely because they plaster "canada" on the side of the plane?... air canada is much canadian as the The Bay(US owned) and has international share holders why do we need to give them a protected exclusive market (me and you)...and the people working for AC like those working for The Bay really don't care who they work for as long as they get paid...

[wyly]

And it is about fucking time, it seemed it was always us that has to change to keep everyone else happy.

oh yeah sure, and you'll be one of the first in line to complain if the time comes when the USA insists on strip searches on all flights to there from canada...

[TimG]

why should we have legislated loyalty to do business with a publicly traded company merely because they plaster "canada" on the side of the plane?

Because open skies must be a two way street. If other countries prevent Air Canada or other airlines from operating within their markets then it makes no sense to open ours to that kind of competition from a state subsidized airline.

[Moonbox]

it's the same thing, the nations being punished with visa restrictions see it the same way, canada is punishing them for the actions of private individuals...canada is telling another nation to change it's domestic politics to suit canada's interest...

Wyly you're so out of touch it's not even funny.

In the case of requiring visas for the Czech Republic and Mexico, that's Canada trying to clamp down on bogus refugee claims and save itself millions of dollars in immigration resources.

In the case of the UAE doing imposing restrictions on Canada, it's a bunch of Arab princes spitefully punishing Canada for not giving them what they want. It's the most childish thing in the world.

Wyly it doesn't really matter what the government does I don't think. You'll fuss and wet your bed about it no matter what.

[The_Squid]

UAE charges $1000.... big f'n deal... it's their country. No one here has some sort of "right" to enter the UAE for free. If you have an issue with this, don't go there.

They won't allow us to use their military bases.... well, again, it is their sovereign country. Does Canada allow UAE to use our military bases for operations? No bloody way.... Canada has no "right" to use UAE military bases.....

THey tried to wrangle some money for their airlines from us because they figured we needed to use their military bases. It didn't work and they don't like the arrangement. Well they do have every right to give our military the boot....

Why do Canadians treasure our precious sovereignty (and rightfully so), but not have the same respect for another country asserting their's?

Edited December 29, 2010 by The_Squid

[Wilber]

emirates can have access to all of canada for all I care, if they want to run a daily flight between calgary and fort mac or TO and Vancouver and do so with in our labour and safety standards I'm all for it...why should we have legislated loyalty to do business with a publicly traded company merely because they plaster "canada" on the side of the plane?... air canada is much canadian as the The Bay(US owned) and has international share holders why do we need to give them a protected exclusive market (me and you)...and the people working for AC like those working for The Bay really don't care who they work for as long as they get paid...

Emirates isn't interested in flights within Canada or even flights from Canada to Dubai, just as they aren't really interested in flights within Australia or from Australia to Dubai. They are after the Australia to Europe traffic. They want to expand Dubai as a hub, not look after Canadians.

Yes Air Canada is owned by those who buy their shares which include Canadians and their pension plans. Emirates is owned by the Emirates government. Do you think the Emirates will move their head offices, maintenance facilities all their other main infrastructure to Canada and base all their crews in Canada? Do you think a majority of their suppliers will be other Canadian companies? Do you think an airline consists of only what you see at an airport?

[wyly]

Because open skies must be a two way street. If other countries prevent Air Canada or other airlines from operating within their markets then it makes no sense to open ours to that kind of competition from a state subsidized airline.

air canada is canadian in name onlyit's an internationally owned company so who are we protecting? why should I subsidize an internationally owned company that I own no part of merely because it paints canada on the side of the plane?.... for every flight opened to emirates AC could ask for the same from uae...it seems the uae is looking for an open skies policy and it's canada that's fighting the free market...

[wyly]

Emirates isn't interested in flights within Canada or even flights from Canada to Dubai, just as they aren't really interested in flights within Australia or from Australia to Dubai. They are after the Australia to Europe traffic. They want to expand Dubai as a hub, not look after Canadians.

I was responding to this post from scotty-If you want to run people between point A and B within a nation you're required to establish your airline within those borders and employ local people.... I don't give a rats ass about AC shuttling me about from airport to airport in order to fill their planes doubling the length of my flight time...my flight to europe 3 yrs ago AC-18 hours of hell, my last flight to europe this past summer KLM-9hrs...I want the cheapest, most comfortable, most direct/fastest and best service flights available, if emirates can do that for me then they can have my business and screw AC...

Yes Air Canada is owned by those who buy their shares which include Canadians and their pension plans. Emirates is owned by the Emirates government. Do you think the Emirates will move their head offices, maintenance facilities all their other main infrastructure to Canada and base all their crews in Canada? Do you think a majority of their suppliers will be other Canadian companies? Do you think an airline consists of only what you see at an airport?

canadians have shares and pension plans in many international companies as do I...but it's not my concern if they choose to invest in a non viable company that's the risk we all take with investments, I don't owe candian investors anything... Edited December 29, 2010 by wyly

[Wilber]

air canada is canadian in name onlyit's an internationally owned company so who are we protecting? why should I subsidize an internationally owned company that I own no part of merely because it paints canada on the side of the plane?.... for every flight opened to emirates AC could ask for the same from uae...it seems the uae is looking for an open skies policy and it's canada that's fighting the free market...

You're not subsidizing anyone, the share holders take all the risk. Air Canada has foreign competition on every one of its international routes including Dubai. When Air Canada and every other North American airline wants to buy an aircraft, they have to go out and borrow the money at market rates and pay it back or go bankrupt. That's the free market. Emirates does not.

[wyly]

Wyly you're so out of touch it's not even funny.

In the case of requiring visas for the Czech Republic and Mexico, that's Canada trying to clamp down on bogus refugee claims and save itself millions of dollars in immigration resources.

In the case of the UAE doing imposing restrictions on Canada, it's a bunch of Arab princes spitefully punishing Canada for not giving them what they want. It's the most childish thing in the world.

Wyly it doesn't really matter what the government does I don't think. You'll fuss and wet your bed about it no matter what.

oooh I see, so canada can do shit to other countries for financial reasons but it's not okay for other countries to do so? even though those countries have done nothing to deserve the punishment?...

[Wilber]

I don't owe candian investors anything...

They don't owe you anything either.

[wyly]

You're not subsidizing anyone, the share holders take all the risk. Air Canada has foreign competition on every one of its international routes including Dubai. When Air Canada and every other North American airline wants to buy an aircraft, they have to go out and borrow the money at market rates and pay it back or go bankrupt. That's the free market. Emirates does not.

BS...I'm being forced to fly with an company that gives sub par service, that's forcing me to subsidize them with my business...emirates regardless of who owns it must turn a profit otherwise like any other business or it'll go under...I don't care who gets my money as long as I get to where I want to go fast, comfortable and cheap...