Guest American Woman Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 How is it in Canada's interest to help Emirates buid Dubai as a hub at Air Canada's cost? It would only be at Air Canada's cost if the UAE provided a more lucrative service; otherwise people would continue flying with Air Canada. Why wouldn't they if they were generally happy with it? And if UAE gives a better value for the money and therefore costs Air Canada business, who's ultimately to blame for that? Looks to me as if Canada is protecting a business, not the interests of Canadians who fly. Canada hasn't budged because there is nothing in it for Canada. Seems to me providing competition would be in the best interest of Canadians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 The UAE isn't asking for competition, they're asking for domination. They want Air Canada and the entire Star Alliance to go away. If that happens, Canadians will lose choice, they won't gain it. Now, I find it rather ridiculous that there are several Liberal and NDP posters arguing for completely open markets in Canada, when that isn't what Canada is about, and when that isn't the Liberal vision for Canada. I certainly don't support it and if the government had said yes, the same posters would be all over them for it.....not to mention the fact that you're arguing for open market rules to apply to foreign government carriers, which is beyond ridiculous. They already have unfair advantages. In Canada, Emirates and Etihad have to play by the same rules that everyone else have to play by. They have to submit applications for landing spots to Transport Canada, and there has to be justification for those landing spots if the application is to be accepted. What the UAE is trying to do is to go around the application process, to avoid the consultation process, and to try to make Dubai a hub at the expense of places like CDG is Paris and Heathrow/Gatwick in London. The UAE isn't playing fair and it isn't in Canada's, Air Canada's, or in the long term Canadians interests to go along with it. The German position is vindication Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 The UAE isn't asking for competition, they're asking for domination. They want Air Canada and the entire Star Alliance to go away. If that happens, Canadians will lose choice, they won't gain it. Now, I find it rather ridiculous that there are several Liberal and NDP posters arguing for completely open markets in Canada, when that isn't what Canada is about, and when that isn't the Liberal vision for Canada. I certainly don't support it and if the government had said yes, the same posters would be all over them for it.....not to mention the fact that you're arguing for open market rules to apply to foreign government carriers, which is beyond ridiculous. They already have unfair advantages. In Canada, Emirates and Etihad have to play by the same rules that everyone else have to play by. They have to submit applications for landing spots to Transport Canada, and there has to be justification for those landing spots if the application is to be accepted. What the UAE is trying to do is to go around the application process, to avoid the consultation process, and to try to make Dubai a hub at the expense of places like CDG is Paris and Heathrow/Gatwick in London. The UAE isn't playing fair and it isn't in Canada's, Air Canada's, or in the long term Canadians interests to go along with it. The German position is vindication In the past 20 years if you hadn't noticed the Liberal position on things like Free Trade and open markets is uniformly positive. Second, no, I don't think anyone in the Liberal Party would've cared if Emirates got a few more landing spots at Pearson. Why? Because the deal behind it is much more important than a few flights to the UAE that Air Canada would never be able to fill anyway. Air Canada simply DOES NOT FLY to where Emirates does. I'll give you that they want Star Alliance to go away but it's absolutely absurd to think that a few more flights in Toronto will cause Star Alliance to become insolvent. Also, Dubai is already a hub. The A380 flies out of Toronto straight to Dubai and there are connections from there to places all over. Places frankly, Air Canada doesn't fly to. Star Alliance might, but isn't that also another form of shirking competition? These airline alliances are nothing more than agreements not to compete in certain markets which is another, if unrelated unfair advantage. Emirates and Eithad aren't part of that. I'm not saying that's right, but lets take our head out of our asses and take stock of what the situation actually is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Q It would only be at Air Canada's cost if the UAE provided a more lucrative service; otherwise people would continue flying with Air Canada. Why wouldn't they if they were generally happy with it? And if UAE gives a better value for the money and therefore costs Air Canada business, who's ultimately to blame for that? Looks to me as if Canada is protecting a business, not the interests of Canadians who fly. Seems to me providing competition would be in the best interest of Canadians. AW Air Canada is our only major international carrier. How wold you feel if all the US international carriers disappeared and the only way you could fly overseas was on a Middle Eastern or Asian carrier many of them government owned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 In the past 20 years if you hadn't noticed the Liberal position on things like Free Trade and open markets is uniformly positive. Unregulated? Because what you're saying is that our regulator (TC) was wrong to deny the spots, a decision that the UAE wanted the cabinet to overturn. I'm a Liberal, I even have a red card, but I'm less impressed with my party every day on issues like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Unregulated? Because what you're saying is that our regulator (TC) was wrong to deny the spots, a decision that the UAE wanted the cabinet to overturn. I'm a Liberal, I even have a red card, but I'm less impressed with my party every day on issues like this. AC is an international company what do I care if another international carrier pushes it out of international flight market with a better product? why should my spending dollars be reserved for a corporation because it slaps Canada on it's planes?...AC is no more canadian than Delta, AC is using phony patriotism to have a protected market at my(and your) expense...if AC was a crown corporation it would be another matter totally but it isn't, it's a corporation with a captive(hostage) market... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 AC is an international company what do I care if another international carrier pushes it out of international flight market with a better product? why should my spending dollars be reserved for a corporation because it slaps Canada on it's planes? What are you talking about? You can fly out of Canada on a number of carriers. That said, there's no reason Canadian business should have to suffer at the hands of a foreign government owned carrier. There are only so many seats to be filled, and Emirates and Etihad won't get more than they're entitled to. If they do, it will affect not just Air Canada, but the Asian and European carriers as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) AC is an international company Headquartered, operating from and serving Canada...so a Canadian airline.... what do I care if another international carrier pushes it out of international flight market with a better product? First of all, I highly doubt anyone in the government is concerned whether or not know-nothings are on board with their decision or whether or not they care about Air Canada. Second, Air Canada wouldn't be getting additional landing rights in the UAE, thus the competition wouldn't be fair, thus there'd be no real benefit for Canada. All you'd be doing is stepping on your domestically operated carrier and possibly killing Canadian jobs. why should my spending dollars be reserved for a corporation because it slaps Canada on it's planes?...AC is no more canadian than Delta, AC is using phony patriotism to have a protected market at my(and your) expense...if AC was a crown corporation it would be another matter totally but it isn't, it's a corporation with a captive(hostage) market... Right...let's see now....Air Canada and its parent company ACE are both traded publicly on the TSX, are both headquarted in Canada and all of their hubs (thus their employees) are in Canada. Delta...not so much. Try again genius. Edited January 21, 2011 by Moonbox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Unregulated? Because what you're saying is that our regulator (TC) was wrong to deny the spots, a decision that the UAE wanted the cabinet to overturn. I'm a Liberal, I even have a red card, but I'm less impressed with my party every day on issues like this. It could've been. I haven't seen the decision. My point is, as a political decision to grant landing rights considering the free service we've been getting at Camp Mirage is a no brainer. The spots are available and the company feels there is more demand for their services. If it works, great for Canadians - more flights to places like Dubai and places beyond for lower prices and it forces Air Canada to offer better service. If it fails, Emirates pulls back and we get the landing spots back anyhow. Like I said, it's not a life or death decision for Air Canada, Star Alliance, Emirates, the GTAA, nor was it a life or death situation for the Federal Government especially considering these types of international deals happen ALL THE TIME. Yet, they chose to act like it. Tell me? What's the big deal here? What's the big issue that's so bad that you can't support the Liberals over? The government let a very prosperous relationship with a nation with a booming economy go to complete shit and we're pissed at the Liberals because they have the balls to call out the government on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) First of all, I highly doubt anyone in the government is concerned whether or not know-nothings are on board with their decision or whether or not they care about Air Canada. Second, Air Canada wouldn't be getting additional landing rights in the UAE, thus the competition wouldn't be fair, thus there'd be no real benefit for Canada. All you'd be doing is stepping on your domestically operated carrier and possibly killing Canadian jobs. Air Canada even flies to Dubai? News to me. So really, how many jobs are we actually killing, here? Edited January 21, 2011 by nicky10013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) What are you talking about? You can fly out of Canada on a number of carriers. That said, there's no reason Canadian business should have to suffer at the hands of a foreign government owned carrier. There are only so many seats to be filled, and Emirates and Etihad won't get more than they're entitled to. If they do, it will affect not just Air Canada, but the Asian and European carriers as well. Let me ask this again. How will Air Canada suffer? Emirates only wants direct flights to a city Air Canada doesn't offer service to. Secondly, why should TC be worried about other Asian or European Carriers? Edited January 21, 2011 by nicky10013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Let me ask this again. How will Air Canada suffer? Emirates only wants direct flights to a city Air Canada doesn't offer service to. Secondly, why should TC be worried about other Asian or European Carriers? The Star Alliance offers service to Dubai....Emirates wants Dubai to become the Asian, middle eastern, and oceanic hub...at the expens of European, North American, Asian, and Oceanic Airline . Edited January 21, 2011 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 The Star Alliance offers service to Dubai....Emirates wants Dubai to become the Asian, middle eastern, and oceanic hub...at the expens of European, North American, Asian, and Oceanic Airline . So how badly would this affect Air Canada? Crippling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esq Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Hows this they buy a stake in pickering airport and land there at as many gates as they manage and operate and pay to build? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickering_Airport Edited January 21, 2011 by Esq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 So how badly would this affect Air Canada? Crippling? Quite possibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Quite possibly. Now, are you actually being serious when you say that? Because I kind of laughed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Now, are you actually being serious when you say that? Because I kind of laughed. Why would you laugh? I'm being quite serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 AC is an international company what do I care if another international carrier pushes it out of international flight market with a better product? why should my spending dollars be reserved for a corporation because it slaps Canada on it's planes?...AC is no more canadian than Delta, AC is using phony patriotism to have a protected market at my(and your) expense...if AC was a crown corporation it would be another matter totally but it isn't, it's a corporation with a captive(hostage) market... You are an idiot. Nearly 23000 people work for Air Canada, the great majority of them Canadians and probably at least as many more again work for companies that rely on Air Canada for their existance. Airlines are huge cash flow machines that historicaly generate very little in profits. They are a lousy investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 ]Try again genius.yes I can understand from your perspective my level of intellect must be intimidating but no I'm not a genius ...but when compared to your idols shady, lukin and saipan I can appreciate how you would make such an error in judgment ...Headquartered, operating from and serving Canada...so a Canadian airline.... First of all, I highly doubt anyone in the government is concerned whether or not know-nothings are on board with their decision or whether or not they care about Air Canada. Second, Air Canada wouldn't be getting additional landing rights in the UAE, thus the competition wouldn't be fair, thus there'd be no real benefit for Canada. All you'd be doing is stepping on your domestically operated carrier and possibly killing Canadian jobs. if AC disappears you actually believe canada will left without air service?...what idiocy, another international or west jet will step in and hire the same canadians that worked for AC...are you so naive to believe that all those people working at canadian offices and service counters of Delta, AA, KLM and Air France, Lufthansa, British Airways, United, and all the technical crews servicing the planes aren't canadian? merely because their planes don't have "canada" plastered on the side of their plane? Right...let's see now....Air Canada and its parent company ACE are both traded publicly on the TSX, are both headquarted in Canada and all of their hubs (thus their employees) are in Canada. Delta...not so much. oh ya where the stocks are traded and where the head office is located must mean it's canadian ya tell that to the The Bay/Zellers or Potashcorp...I bet you still believe in santa and the easter bunny too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 What are you talking about? You can fly out of Canada on a number of carriers. That said, there's no reason Canadian business should have to suffer at the hands of a foreign government owned carrier. There are only so many seats to be filled, and Emirates and Etihad won't get more than they're entitled to. If they do, it will affect not just Air Canada, but the Asian and European carriers as well. when AC was crown corp did the US shut it out of it's airspace to protect it's corporate interests? now the shoe is on the other foot AC wants to have different rules to play by?why would I give a fig about asian and european airlines?...and it wouldn't affect AC because AC doesn't fly to UAE and mutual landing rights is something that could've been negotiated...the oil patch in Calgary would prefer a more direct flight to UAE, why should it be disadvantaged by AC's desire for a closed market?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) AWAir Canada is our only major international carrier. How wold you feel if all the US international carriers disappeared and the only way you could fly overseas was on a Middle Eastern or Asian carrier many of them government owned? How is allowing more flights from the UAE synonymous with AC "disappearing?" Is AC's service so bad that everyone would choose to fly UAE? If so, I would think that the "disappearance" of inferior airlines would be due to their poor service, and as a flyer, I'd be glad to have a superior service to fly overseas. But there are US carriers and European carriers that fly overseas, too. When I flew to Amsterdam out of Toronto, I flew KLM. Fact is, I fail to see how allowing more UAE flights would lead the the disappearance of AC. Unless AC is a horrible airline, in which case it hardly deserves government 'protection,' it just wouldn't happen. Edited January 21, 2011 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 How is allowing more flights from the UAE synonymous with AC "disappearing?" Is AC's service so bad that everyone would choose to fly UAE? If so, I would think that the "disappearance" of inferior airlines would be due to their poor service, and as a flyer, I'd be glad to have a superior service to fly overseas. But there are US carriers and European carriers that fly overseas, too. When I flew to Amsterdam out of Toronto, I flew KLM. Fact is, I fail to see how allowing more UAE flights would lead the the disappearance of AC. Unless AC is a horrible airline, in which case it hardly deserves government 'protection,' it just wouldn't happen. I think it's more complicated than that. Perhaps the Emirates airline can undercut Air Canada because it is a government-owned enterprise. Given the difficult financial challenges that most private airlines face, government-owned airlines like Emirates have certain advantages that might make it difficult for Air Canada to compete. Different but related, consider China's advantages over the USA with respect to much of the manufacturing industry. Can companies who run most of their operations in the USA compete with the low wages and low standards of China? Consider the costs of operations in the USA, such as higher real estate costs, higher energy costs, higher labour costs, higher standards and expectations, and everything else. It's just another similar example of the various playing fields we're all operation on when examining the international business scene. Lastly, considering that Air Canada does much more for Canada's well-bring than Emirates, why shouldn't Canada do some things to the advantage of Canadian companies? Should Canada look out for its own best interests, or abstain for the sake of "fairness"? See what I mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 How is allowing more flights from the UAE synonymous with AC "disappearing?" Is AC's service so bad that everyone would choose to fly UAE? If so, I would think that the "disappearance" of inferior airlines would be due to their poor service, and as a flyer, I'd be glad to have a superior service to fly overseas. But there are US carriers and European carriers that fly overseas, too. When I flew to Amsterdam out of Toronto, I flew KLM. Fact is, I fail to see how allowing more UAE flights would lead the the disappearance of AC. Unless AC is a horrible airline, in which case it hardly deserves government 'protection,' it just wouldn't happen. AW I don't know how anyone could consider companies who have to finance their operations from capital markets competing unrestricted against companies which have unlimited access to goverment funds, either free enterprise or a free market. If a government can use coersion to advance the interests of a company it owns, surely another government can act in the interests of one of its companies that pays its own way. To hear an American claim otherwise is realy quite odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I think it's more complicated than that. Perhaps the Emirates airline can undercut Air Canada because it is a government-owned enterprise. Given the difficult financial challenges that most private airlines face, government-owned airlines like Emirates have certain advantages that might make it difficult for Air Canada to compete. Different but related, consider China's advantages over the USA with respect to much of the manufacturing industry. Can companies who run most of their operations in the USA compete with the low wages and low standards of China? Consider the costs of operations in the USA, such as higher real estate costs, higher energy costs, higher labour costs, higher standards and expectations, and everything else. It's just another similar example of the various playing fields we're all operation on when examining the international business scene. Lastly, considering that Air Canada does much more for Canada's well-bring than Emirates, why shouldn't Canada do some things to the advantage of Canadian companies? Should Canada look out for its own best interests, or abstain for the sake of "fairness"? See what I mean? globalization is a fact of life there is no fighting it, protecting an internationally owned airline like AC makes no sense... I've no interest in paying higher airfares for poor service and limited destinations for the sake of some AC shareholder in the USA, France, Israel, Toronto or where ever...if they want my money give me better service... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 globalization is a fact of life there is no fighting it, protecting an internationally owned airline like AC makes no sense... I've no interest in paying higher airfares for poor service and limited destinations for the sake of some AC shareholder in the USA, France, Israel, Toronto or where ever...if they want my money give me better service... By law, controling ownership of a Canadian airline must remain in Canada. The US has similar laws because they are considered vital infrastructure like highways. Air Canada generates between 9 and 10 billions in revenues each year, a good chunk of which goes back into the Canadian economy. It seems you have no problem with that money going elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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