Molly Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Yes, actually. There is. Profit incentivization is about the first thing on that list. The care you recieve in Canada will be less risky, less intrusive, and almost invariably less costly than the care you would recieve in the US. Basically, in Canada, you might not get what you want, but you'll get what you need. In the US, if you can get what you need, then you can generally also get what you want, whether it's medically a good idea or not. US medicine is sexier, more dramatic, wa-ay more costly, but less effective overall. Edited January 9, 2011 by Molly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Yes, actually. There is. Profit incentivization is about the first thing on that list. The care you recieve in Canada will be less risky, less intrusive, and almost invariably less costly than the care you would recieve in the US. Basically, in Canada, you might not get what you want, but you'll get what you need. In the US, if you can get what you need, then you can generally also get what you want, whether it's medically a good idea or not. US medicine is sexier, more dramatic, wa-ay more costly, but less effective overall. And both are a hell of a lot more effective then traditional Chinese medicine that bjre occasionally talks about like it was effective at all. Chinese medicine actually killed a few Chinese emperors. Edited January 9, 2011 by TrueMetis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Just to throw in another personal account that happened this week regarding me still not seeing where these waiting lists are: I've got a low back injury, and it's not responding to the treatment that the doctor and physiotherapist were giving. The X-ray (that I got within 5 minutes of the doctor sending me for one) didn't really show anything, so the Doc referred me for an MRI. Now, this is one place where we are conditioned to expect a long wait. Everyone has heard the stories about waiting lists several months long. I was expecting the same, but was blown away when the call came from the St. Boniface Hospital MRI department telling me that I was scheduled to get mine done in six days. If this was a one time thing, I'd call it a happy aberration, but in my 43 years living in Manitoba, I've literally never seen any of this waiting for medical care that people talk about. I always get what I need when I need it, in a timely, efficient, and professional manner. Edited February 8, 2011 by Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I think the better is abolish the license for doctors. Anyone can be a doctor without being charged. Great idea! So Moonbox could claim himself a psychiatrist and send you to a madhouse.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Now, this is one place where we are conditioned to expect a long wait. Everyone has heard the stories about waiting lists several months long. I was expecting the same, but was blown away when the call came from the St. Boniface Hospital MRI department telling me that I was scheduled to get mine done in six days. I'm afraid that in the major cities of bjre's hometown you usually only needs a few hours to wait for a MRI examination. In China, their are not family doctors. People used to go to hospitals directly to see a doctor without an appointment. The advantage of the system is that the patients don't need to wait for long to access some facilities like MRI or see an specialist becasuse there always have enough patients to keep these departments and facilities of a hospital running with full capacity. I guess pliny may like the system. Just imagine, if there isn't any small stores and shops but only Walmart in Canada, the productivity of each salesperson(the doctor) will be maximized. The disadvantage of the system is obvious. Most of the patients need to go a long way for seeing a doctor. Doctors may spend more time to read the medical record of a chronic patient because he can't remember him, meanwhile other patients have to wait, being murdered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Try it for Toronto: 49 days http://waittimes.hco-on.ca/EN/search/surgery/adult#/diagnostic-scans/magnetic-resonance-imaging-mri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 This is the link every Ontarian should know about. I expect that none do. It's buried in the Ministry of Health website. http://www.waittimes.net/SurgeryDI/EN/provincialsummary.aspx This indicates that the target is for 90% of people to get their MRI within 4 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 You can't go by those pages in individual situations. The time for Manitoba is also 4 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 An MRI can be given for a number of reasons. A Doctor might want someone to get an MRI because they have experienced chronic pain or because they have an unexplained limp. The thing these scans which are blind guesses by doctors hoping to get something out of them but realistically there is only 1-2% chance are put on a waiting list. It would be nice if you could rush those people in but really they aren't actually going to experience any change because of it. It is a shot in the dark and that is the best their doctor can do while waiting for other tests to come back to give the doctor a better Idea what the person is experiencing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 So everybody on a waiting list has a 1% to 2% chance that it will be helpful ? Why does it seem to me like you're blindly defending the system here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 This is the link every Ontarian should know about. I expect that none do. It's buried in the Ministry of Health website. http://www.waittimes.net/SurgeryDI/EN/provincialsummary.aspx This indicates that the target is for 90% of people to get their MRI within 4 months. I would assume that those waiting are not critical or immediate danger...I waited for my MRI, I don't recall how long but it didn't matter as I was in no danger at all..I was told a week prior to my turn that I could be bumped for an urgent case should it occur...so we wait, not big issue really...if you're critically ill you move to the head of the line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellowtraveller Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Last year I had a dental cleaning followed by a routine exam with Xrays. The cleaning happened on time, but I waited for over an hour for the dentist to show, but he had to deal with an emergency in the office. No problem for me. I know how miserbale it can be to need urgent dental help . But..... I also had important business appts so after an hour plus I pulled off the bib, and told them I'd reschedule, and headed for the door. They were gobsmacked, apparently nobody had ever done that before, left the chair to go do something more inportant than wait for the dentist. They were very apologetic then and when I returned a couple months later. Hard to do that with the doctor, they could care less if they see one less or more person. That is likely because dentists here seek patients, doctors turn them away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Last year I had a dental cleaning followed by a routine exam with Xrays. The cleaning happened on time, but I waited for over an hour for the dentist to show, but he had to deal with an emergency in the office. No problem for me. I know how miserbale it can be to need urgent dental help . But..... I also had important business appts so after an hour plus I pulled off the bib, and told them I'd reschedule, and headed for the door. They were gobsmacked, apparently nobody had ever done that before, left the chair to go do something more inportant than wait for the dentist. They were very apologetic then and when I returned a couple months later. Hard to do that with the doctor, they could care less if they see one less or more person. That is likely because dentists here seek patients, doctors turn them away. seems fair to me it's not like the dentist wasn't going to get paid, obviously the emergency patient paid for his/her care...I was one of those emergency patients once so if was me you were bumped for I apologize but my case was potentially life threatening, dental abscess had spread into my sinus region (next stop brain)...$900 for that emergency care... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) You can't go by those pages in individual situations. The time for Manitoba is also 4 months. The posted wait times are not the actual time you will wait, nor are they the averages. They are the maximums. Edited February 9, 2011 by Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted February 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 An MRI can be given for a number of reasons. A Doctor might want someone to get an MRI because they have experienced chronic pain or because they have an unexplained limp. The thing these scans which are blind guesses by doctors hoping to get something out of them but realistically there is only 1-2% chance are put on a waiting list. It would be nice if you could rush those people in but really they aren't actually going to experience any change because of it. It is a shot in the dark and that is the best their doctor can do while waiting for other tests to come back to give the doctor a better Idea what the person is experiencing. When they can ask for money by don't give you scan like MRI, you will be waiting for long time. When they can ask for money by give you extra scan, you will be forced to scan, one case is CAS, they can ask police come to force parent to agree to scan on his kid or destroy the family, the other example is airport body scan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 The posted wait times are not the actual time you will wait, nor are they the averages. They are the maximums. From the Ontario website: "Wait times are the point at which nearly all patients (90%) have completed surgery or have had their exam." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 The posted wait times are not the actual time you will wait, nor are they the averages. They are the maximums. For diagnostic imaging yes, you're right, but for other procedures, it's the average. If diagnostics were measured the same way as other procedures, the wat times would show as far shorter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 From the Ontario website: "Wait times are the point at which nearly all patients (90%) have completed surgery or have had their exam." In Manitoba, the wait times for diagnostics are (IIRC) to when 95% of patients are done their procedures for diagnostics, and other wat times are the median, because it is more reflective of the typical than the average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 This is the link every Ontarian should know about. I expect that none do. It's buried in the Ministry of Health website. http://www.waittimes.net/SurgeryDI/EN/provincialsummary.aspx This indicates that the target is for 90% of people to get their MRI within 4 months. Don't remember saying that. I said there are people who are put that on that list while their doctors do other tests. They are put there because the doctor knows for non emergencies it can but up to a 3 month wait however as they go on that list they make the line longer. So 90% of people wait up to 4 months that does not mean it is a 4 month waiting list. It means that by the end of 4 months with scheduling, bumps, and non emergencies almost everyone on the list has had their MRI. I'll take that. PEOPLE WHO NEED THEM NOW GET THEM. People who who don't wait up to 4 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 So 90% of people wait up to 4 months that does not mean it is a 4 month waiting list. It means that by the end of 4 months with scheduling, bumps, and non emergencies almost everyone on the list has had their MRI. I'll take that. PEOPLE WHO NEED THEM NOW GET THEM. People who who don't wait up to 4 months. I accept your explanation as likely, however the numbers are key and need to be monitored. There isn't a separate list given for "people who need them now", as you may note. Other statistics provide a similar lack of granularity, and are difficult to find. If we're going to have socialized health care, it is key in my mind that people pay attention to such things. They dont'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 I accept your explanation as likely, however the numbers are key and need to be monitored. There isn't a separate list given for "people who need them now", as you may note. Other statistics provide a similar lack of granularity, and are difficult to find. If we're going to have socialized health care, it is key in my mind that people pay attention to such things. They dont'. Well than we agree. I am a supporter of the health care system but believe it can be much much better then it is now. It should not be sacrilege to point out problems in it otherwise we would never fix them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 I accept your explanation as likely, however the numbers are key and need to be monitored. There isn't a separate list given for "people who need them now", as you may note.Other statistics provide a similar lack of granularity, and are difficult to find.but we do know critical patients don't wait so really is there a need for a separate statistic for that? ...not that wait times can't be improved on but let's not turn it into crisis that it isn't...If we're going to have socialized health care, it is key in my mind that people pay attention to such things. They dont'.obviously people are because it's high on the list of concerns among canadians...the problem is canadians spreading falsehoods at Tim's when they haven't a clue what they're talking about, and the media being equally guilty in it's search for a juicy story stirring the pot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Well than we agree. I am a supporter of the health care system but believe it can be much much better then it is now. It should not be sacrilege to point out problems in it otherwise we would never fix them. Hear hear. I implore those who want to improve the system to look at the published stats, and to talk about them with friends, associates, and fellow travelers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 but we do know critical patients don't wait so really is there a need for a separate statistic for that? ...not that wait times can't be improved on but let's not turn it into crisis that it isn't... My argument would be that in a monopolistic situation, we need more consumer information provided not less. The common sense argument is that if service providers have their performance publicized it tends to make them more aware of it, like a report card. obviously people are because it's high on the list of concerns among canadians...the problem is canadians spreading falsehoods at Tim's when they haven't a clue what they're talking about, and the media being equally guilty in it's search for a juicy story stirring the pot... Oddly, you are concerned about falsehoods and people not knowing what they're talking about in the same post where you question whether service levels for those most in need have to be published. If the data is published, and people pay attention, I believe it will throw light on falsehoods and rumours and will make all of us more responsible for the system we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 A personal (family) doctor is almost impossible to come by...He or she must be a personal friend - someone who knows and likes you - someone who is protective and not some systems jerk who wants you in the office just to get an OHIP payment - for things that are not neccesary....as for most doctors - yes they are parasites....and those involved in mental health are just agents for drug companies....who are also parasitic....and then there are the weasils who say ---I will see you for 130 bucks an hour....public health care does not seem to provide real service - all the good doctors are privatized already..and the bad doctors see as many people as possible..who aer not sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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