guyser Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 A personal (family) doctor is almost impossible to come by...He or she must be a personal friend - someone who knows and likes you - someone who is protective and not some systems jerk who wants you in the office just to get an OHIP payment - for things that are not neccesary....as for most doctors - yes they are parasites....and those involved in mental health are just agents for drug companies....who are also parasitic....and then there are the weasils who say ---I will see you for 130 bucks an hour....public health care does not seem to provide real service - all the good doctors are privatized already..and the bad doctors see as many people as possible..who aer not sick. Whats your planet like to live on? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 A personal (family) doctor is almost impossible to come by...He or she must be a personal friend - someone who knows and likes you - someone who is protective and not some systems jerk who wants you in the office just to get an OHIP payment The Ontario government now has put in a program to find people doctors. What is the cost ? What is being done to actually identify the requirements for the number of doctors ? It's not clear to me from that website. The results are here: 50789/93112 have been placed, or 55% By the way, that is 93 THOUSAND people looking for a doctor in Ontario. http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/ms/healthcareconnect/public/results.aspx Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
punked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 The Ontario government now has put in a program to find people doctors. What is the cost ? What is being done to actually identify the requirements for the number of doctors ? It's not clear to me from that website. The results are here: 50789/93112 have been placed, or 55% By the way, that is 93 THOUSAND people looking for a doctor in Ontario. http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/ms/healthcareconnect/public/results.aspx But that does not mean there is 93,000 with out a doctor. Quote
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 My argument would be that in a monopolistic situation, we need more consumer information provided not less. The common sense argument is that if service providers have their performance publicized it tends to make them more aware of it, like a report card.I think it's out there most people prefer not to listen or look for themselves they prefer disinformation at their local tim's or biased editorials from journalists who are equally in the dark...Oddly, you are concerned about falsehoods and people not knowing what they're talking about in the same post where you question whether service levels for those most in need have to be published.If the data is published, and people pay attention, I believe it will throw light on falsehoods and rumours and will make all of us more responsible for the system we have. but it's a no brainer, critical patients are not on wait lists I don't need statistics to tell me that...it's like any hospital ER those in dire need go to the head of the line...the disinformation make it sound as if someone on deaths doorstep is waiting months and months ...and people are gullible enough to believe it because their coffee buddy at Tim's told them so or some editorial piece pushing for a two tier health system would have us believe it...and you only need to read Olegs post to verify my point, people are ignorant of the situation because they're lazy...they'd rather gather the truth at Tims than look for it themselves, you can publish all the stats you want those people will not be bothered to read or try understand them... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 But that does not mean there is 93,000 with out a doctor. No. It may mean there are more. It does mean that they can only find a doctor for 55% of people who register. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 But that does not mean there is 93,000 with out a doctor.it's more disinformation if you need doctor go to any walk-in clinic...this need for a "personal physician" is way over stated...I went to the same walk-in clinic for years with my family it didn't matter which MD we saw and our medical history was on file if needed... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 I think it's out there most people prefer not to listen or look for themselves they prefer disinformation at their local tim's or biased editorials from journalists who are equally in the dark... Yes, and that's a bad thing. but it's a no brainer, critical patients are not on wait lists I don't need statistics to tell me that...it's like any hospital ER those in dire need go to the head of the line...the disinformation make it sound as if someone on deaths doorstep is waiting months and months ...and people are gullible enough to believe it because their coffee buddy at Tim's told them so or some editorial piece pushing for a two tier health system would have us believe it... It's a no brainer that things are running correctly ? That those who need critical care are getting it right away ? I prefer to have such things audited and reported on, if only to provide a bought-into number that will shut up the coffee buddy at Tim's. If you don't want a two-tier health system, then you should do your part to make the one tier system better, which means familiarizing yourself with statistics - good and bad - and getting the coffee buddies to visit these websites. and you only need to read Olegs post to verify my point, people are ignorant of the situation because they're lazy...they'd rather gather the truth at Tims than look for it themselves, you can publish all the stats you want those people will not be bothered to read or try understand them... So... because there are always some ignorant people, we shouldn't bother with the statistics ? This is the definition of cynical. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Yes, and that's a bad thing.it's the nature of the beast...It's a no brainer that things are running correctly ? That those who need critical care are getting it right away ? I prefer to have such things audited and reported on, if only to provide a bought-into number that will shut up the coffee buddy at Tim's.no system will ever be perfect but you're in error if you believe that the system is stagnant, changes and improvements are always going on...I know from my circle of friends in the medical field(MDs, Nures, adminstrators) adjustments are constantly being made to improve service...but people in our instant gratification society want everything done yesterday and that's not realistic...If you don't want a two-tier health system, then you should do your part to make the one tier system better, which means familiarizing yourself with statistics - good and bad - and getting the coffee buddies to visit these websites.I have probably the best access to inside info on the healthcare on this forum (at least for alberta)and anyone who already has an opinion will not believe a word I have to say because I'm not their buddy from Tims...the only people who listen are those who know and trust me (my friends) and those with an open mind (rare)...So... because there are always some ignorant people, we shouldn't bother with the statistics ? This is the definition of cynical.cynical, no just realistic...people like yourself will look for an answer...the ignorant will always remain ignorant... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Molly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 it's more disinformation if you need doctor go to any walk-in clinic...this need for a "personal physician" is way over stated...I went to the same walk-in clinic for years with my family it didn't matter which MD we saw and our medical history was on file if needed... That's fine so long as you suffer only occassional, common-as-grass, acute medical needs, but as soon as you run into something complex or chronic, continuity becomes very, very important. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 no system will ever be perfect but you're in error if you believe that the system is stagnant, changes and improvements are always going on...I know from my circle of friends in the medical field(MDs, Nures, adminstrators) adjustments are constantly being made to improve service...but people in our instant gratification society want everything done yesterday and that's not realistic... I'm sure that things change - it's a huge system after all. But it's pretty obvious that regularly publishing numbers makes progress/regression more clear and is thus an incentive to improvement. I have probably the best access to inside info on the healthcare on this forum (at least for alberta)and anyone who already has an opinion will not believe a word I have to say because I'm not their buddy from Tims...the only people who listen are those who know and trust me (my friends) and those with an open mind (rare)... The fact that "inside info" exists in a so-called public system is a problem, IMO. Put the information out there, throw light on the situation, treat the public like adults. cynical, no just realistic...people like yourself will look for an answer...the ignorant will always remain ignorant... Then give people like me something to chew on, I say. Democracy in Canada only works because a minority of people pay attention, and yet it works well enough. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 That's fine so long as you suffer only occassional, common-as-grass, acute medical needs, but as soon as you run into something complex or chronic, continuity becomes very, very important. and then you're sent on to a specialist who you've never met before...the continuity(medical records) are sent with you to the specialist...and your "personal physician" becomes a bystander without the knowledge to help you...the GP MD is just a gatekeeper to the system... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
punked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 No. It may mean there are more. It does mean that they can only find a doctor for 55% of people who register. It also may mean there is a lot less but some people are not happy with the doctor they have. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Lindsay Post This article says it's a million Ontarians. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
punked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Lindsay Post This article says it's a million Ontarians. From almost 4 years ago. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 From almost 4 years ago. Do you think it fell to 90,000 in that time ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
punked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Do you think it fell to 90,000 in that time ? I think if they wanted a family doctor they would have jumped on that list however there are many out there that could care less if they have a family doctor or not and those people are happy the way they are. You could make half of the people Ontario doctors and there would still be people with out a family doctor. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 Ahh... here we go... search google for 15 minutes seems to work... (!) Belleville Intelligencer The college said 915,000 Ontarians don't have a family doctor. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 I think if they wanted a family doctor they would have jumped on that list however there are many out there that could care less if they have a family doctor or not and those people are happy the way they are. You could make half of the people Ontario doctors and there would still be people with out a family doctor. I think it's pretty clear that there are a lot of people who can't get a doctor, though. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
punked Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 I think it's pretty clear that there are a lot of people who can't get a doctor, though. No saying there isn't but I am saying there are people who wont no matter how many doctors there are. I think the list highlights how many people who don't have and want a doctor don't have one. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 No saying there isn't but I am saying there are people who wont no matter how many doctors there are. I think the list highlights how many people who don't have and want a doctor don't have one. But not everybody who wants a doctor is on the list either. I'm kind of impressed that they are doing something about it, even if they're not addressing the shortage itself in a direct way. Also it's worth noting that it's not easy to get the stats on this indicator either... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 No saying there isn't but I am saying there are people who wont no matter how many doctors there are. I think the list highlights how many people who don't have and want a doctor don't have one. or if we even need a family doctor, I don't but do so because my wife wants me to, the care I get at a walk in clinic is every bit as good... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Molly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 and then you're sent on to a specialist who you've never met before...the continuity(medical records) are sent with you to the specialist...and your "personal physician" becomes a bystander without the knowledge to help you... the GP MD is just a gatekeeper to the system... You are right in that sometimes that's exactly how it goes... but you are also dead wrong. GP gets and keeps the records, co-ordinates between experts, and in the end, is the only one who can interpret what's going on and make use of the information for what comes after. If you've never needed the involvement of a good GP who knows you, that's great for you- honestly a good thing, and I hope you never do need more than a walk-in clinic. Just sayin', when you do need them, you really, really need them. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
wyly Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) You are right in that sometimes that's exactly how it goes... but you are also dead wrong. GP gets and keeps the records, co-ordinates between experts, and in the end, is the only one who can interpret what's going on and make use of the information for what comes after. every specialist MD gets your relevant medical records when you see them and they keep them for 10 years(at least in Alberta)...if the specialist can't help the patient he sends them back to the GP/gatekeeper with a referral who redirects the patient elsewhere...more than once I've been sent to the wrong specialist by an GP, GP's are lightweights and have little clue when the ailment is beyond their knowledge, they just send the patient on to another specialist who may recognize the problem...If you've never needed the involvement of a good GP who knows you, that's great for you- honestly a good thing, and I hope you never do need more than a walk-in clinic. Just sayin', when you do need them, you really, really need them.a "family physician" has no better qualification than a MD at a walk-in clinic, they all took the same exams and passed...the two best MDs I've dealt with were both walk-in MDs, the worst was a previous "family" physician mrs wyly visited...the difference between a MD at a walk-in clinic and a personal office? none... Edited February 9, 2011 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Bryan Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 From the Ontario website: "Wait times are the point at which nearly all patients (90%) have completed surgery or have had their exam." From the Manitoba website: "Diagnostic wait times are reported as estimated maximum wait times rather than averages or medians. In most cases patients typically wait much less than the reported wait time" also: "Patients who require emergency care are not placed on a wait list" http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waittime/diagnostic/mri.html Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 From the Manitoba website: "Diagnostic wait times are reported as estimated maximum wait times rather than averages or medians. In most cases patients typically wait much less than the reported wait time" also: "Patients who require emergency care are not placed on a wait list" http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waittime/diagnostic/mri.html The numbers appear to be better than Ontario, but also what is being reported isn't as clear. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
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