First Nations governance and compensation

[The_Squid]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/atlantic/leader-of-tiny-native-band-says-she-works-hard-for-243000-pay/article1822953/

Leader of tiny native band says she works hard for $243,000 pay

Ms. Clarke runs a reserve of 87 people.

As chief in 2008-09, Ms. Clarke received a total tax-free compensation of about $243,000. Her councillors, some of whom filled more than one job, got a total of between $210,000 and $260,000 each. And on top of his political work, one councillor, Mike Halliday, earned an additional $718,000 through band-awarded contracts.

The entire reservation system and Indian Act needs to be scrapped and reborn. Some reserves are being run by cabals of thugs who get rich while the average First Nations citizen lives in poverty.

This is truly disgusting.

[Saipan]

The entire reservation system and Indian Act needs to be scrapped and reborn. Some reserves are being run by cabals of thugs who get rich while the average First Nations citizen lives in poverty.

This is truly disgusting.

All that, and more, is coming to an abrupt end by 2012.

[AngusThermopyle]

Yeah, so whats wrong with what she gets paid? If you read the article you can see she works hard for her money (that might make a good song lyric) she even says so herself.

Not only that but its unfair to single out Natives this way. So there.

[Topaz]

Yeah, too bad people didn't pay attention to what the politicans are making and how many days off they have and all the fringe benefits that go with it, plus pensions. The First Nation people have to live in Third World conditions in Canada. Why shouldn't they live as well as the politicans, especially the Minister of First Nation does?

[charter.rights]

Yeah, too bad people didn't pay attention to what the politicans are making and how many days off they have and all the fringe benefits that go with it, plus pensions. The First Nation people have to live in Third World conditions in Canada. Why shouldn't they live as well as the politicans, especially the Minister of First Nation does?

That's not the issue. Politicians are entitled to their entitlements and First Nation politicians are only entitled to our scraps.

I sense a bit of jealousy in the OP. There is more to life than dwelling on one's hatred.

[Shady]

It's extremely disgusting. I was reading that one chief makes more than the Prime Minister. And in another case, a handful of them made a combined 1.8 million dollars. While their community of a few hundred live at the poverty level. Anyone that defends this type of behavior is a complete partisan degenerate.

[Saipan]

The First Nation people have to live in Third World conditions in Canada.

Why?

[Saipan]

First Nation politicians are only entitled to our scraps.

It's a tough life sitting in an office on mere $150,000 or $200,000 a year.

(most of it siphoned from people who make less than $50,000 actually working)

[August1991]

Yeah, too bad people didn't pay attention to what the politicans are making and how many days off they have and all the fringe benefits that go with it, plus pensions. The First Nation people have to live in Third World conditions in Canada. Why shouldn't they live as well as the politicans, especially the Minister of First Nation does?

Topaz, you miss the point of the OP. Indian reserves are mini-Third World nations within Canada. A few rich natives do well, and everyone else suffers. No one creates any wealth. They live in an eternal world of the zero-sum game.

The $10 billion that federal taxpayers distribute to natives (about $10,000 for each one) perpetuates this sad state of affairs. If there ever was an example to illustrate the error of socialism (steal from the rich and give to the poor), this is it. "Giving to the poor" creates dependancy.

I'm all in favour of helping my fellow human but this is surely not the way to do it. Leftists and do-gooders (and I count myself among them) still have not figured out how to help truly other people in trouble.

[Bonam]

I'm all in favour of helping my fellow human but this is surely not the way to do it. Leftists and do-gooders (and I count myself among them) still have not figured out how to help truly other people in trouble.

Fortunately those of us who are neither leftists nor do-gooders have figured it out a long time ago. Let people in trouble help themselves. You'd be surprised how resourceful people can be, when they actually try to depend on themselves instead of on handouts.

[August1991]

Fortunately those of us who are neither leftists nor do-gooders have figured it out a long time ago. Let people in trouble help themselves. You'd be surprised how resourceful people can be, when they actually try to depend on themselves instead of on handouts.

But Bonam, you know that's false.

Go back and read Dickens' Great Expectations, if you haven't already.

A helping hand can change a life.

[Saipan]

Yeah, too bad people didn't pay attention to what the politicans are making

True, but they are elected.

Indian chiefs should be paid by those who elect them.

That wouldn't be me. So why should I pay?

[KeyStone]

The point here is that the First Nations demand the right to self-governance. When they get it, their leaders get wildly disproportionate compensation to the rest of the First nations. Then, they cry foul to the government of Canada, that their people are living in poverty.

The people on the reserves need to take some responsibility. You can not have a band chief making 300,000 tax free dollars coming hat in hand to proclaim that his reserve is not getting enough money.

They have achieved self-government, and it is a dismal failure.

What is the government suppposed to do now? Just throw more money at the problem?

[charter.rights]

The point here is that the First Nations demand the right to self-governance. When they get it, their leaders get wildly disproportionate compensation to the rest of the First nations. Then, they cry foul to the government of Canada, that their people are living in poverty.

The people on the reserves need to take some responsibility. You can not have a band chief making 300,000 tax free dollars coming hat in hand to proclaim that his reserve is not getting enough money.

They have achieved self-government, and it is a dismal failure.

What is the government suppposed to do now? Just throw more money at the problem?

These Chiefs are not "self-governing" they are Indian Act Chiefs. It is a systme imposed on them and one that emulates ours.

The one Chief who purportedly earn $900k did not earn more than the Prime Minister. The figures released by CTF included all his expenses and reimbursements for doing the job. As I understand it they took everything that passed hands and included it in their estimates.

And First Nations do not get $10,000 each from INAC. That is a load of bunk. The actual INAC budget is in the $14 billion range it is true but by the time INAC takes their employee salaries, their employee programs and benefits and First Nations get the table scraps it amounts to about $5 billion a year. That $5b is distributed to all First Nations and off reserve programs, as well as Aboriginal Business Canada which is used to support loans to native businesses for start up and capital resources. The end result is that Band governments receive about $3500 for each member to cover their health system, education system, housing, water, sewage systems, roads, social system and all the infrastructure the band is responsible for maintaining. Compare this to a small municipality which receives about $8,000 a year from provincial tax base, and that does not have to cover health, social services or education which are either paid for by the province directly in part or in whole (BTW Education is funded 60% by the province in spite of the education taxes we typically pay).

So ye they are in third world conditions, some doing better than others. In Ontario the First Nations Casino Agreement inputs additional funds into reserves. However, the spending on those funds are restricted to community development projects, and cannot be used to contribute to infrastructure, or administration costs. Even though there may be a little window dressing going on, the reality is the fridge is still full of old food.

I would agree that a Chief earning $500,000 per year is an obscene wage. However, I also believe that paying the CEO of some hospital $500k or any CEO of any bank over $500 is equally in not more deplorable. The problem isn't with native Chiefs taking money from their constituents. No. They take it from the taxpayers - the same taxpayers that are paying Federal Senators $500k per year per life to attend a few sessions and do nothing most the time. We all pay for political corruption and greed and if a politician or a business administrator can get away with ripping off the taxpayer, they will and do. So FN Chiefs are merely playing a game that we willing turn a blind eye to.

When the rest of you Indian junkies start complaining and doing something about our politicians and our business leaders stealing our money, then maybe you'll be justified at turning your attention to FN Chiefs. But as long as we tolerate it, and ignore our own failings we have no right to criticize.

[AngusThermopyle]

Well, I'm sure most of you realize that my first post was rather tongue in cheek. So lets get down to business shall we. Where to start, I know, how about this.

They take it from the taxpayers - the same taxpayers that are paying Federal Senators $500k per year per life to attend a few sessions and do nothing most the time.

Now Charter, I know you won't like this as its actual fact as opposed to your lovely fantasy that you so regularly peddle on these forums but I think we should establish a baseline here based on truth.

GOC Senatorial Pay Rates

As was mentioned earlier it is absolutely disgusting that you should attempt to justify this theft. You are so intrinsically dishonest that you can't even put aside your partisanship long enough to acknowledge an injustice done to the people who's cause you espouse by some of their own people. Further to that you then attempt to mitigate it by implying that its actually Whiteis fault. You truly are not worth the time of day.

Have you ever asked yourself why most here consider you to be a joke not worth listening to?

Edited to add.

In an amazing coincidence all three mentioned in the story travelled the exact same amount as all three claimed 34,000 in travel expenses. I wonder where they went? Around the world several times?

Edited December 3, 2010 by AngusThermopyle

[charter.rights]

Have you ever asked yourself why most here consider you to be a joke not worth listening to?

Interesting that you think you are "most people" or that you represent anyone here....You opinion is worth nothing and it has been pointed out on many occasions that you are incapable of backing up any of your arguments with references.

That you think is of questionable value. That others may not like the truth....priceless....

I wish you wouldn't waste my time, it is true. But you are like a lice infestation and you draw me in to scratch now and then. I will keep scratching and you can keep your blood-sucking on someone else's ass for a while, k?

[AngusThermopyle]

Interesting that you think you are "most people" or that you represent anyone here....You opinion is worth nothing and it has been pointed out on many occasions that you are incapable of backing up any of your arguments with references.

That you think is of questionable value. That others may not like the truth....priceless....

I wish you wouldn't waste my time, it is true. But you are like a lice infestation and you draw me in to scratch now and then. I will keep scratching and you can keep your blood-sucking on someone else's ass for a while, k?

Incapable of backing up. Now that truly is ironic considering you are replying to a post in which I provide a Government site that refutes your previously stated "Charter fact" relating to senatorial pay. As for representing most people. Just go over past threads and note how many times people have told you you are full of it. I don't represent most, they do that in ample numbers for themselves.

So after posting your usual crap you then oh so predictably launch into your usual insults. As I've said before, dance little puppet dance. You really are so easy to guide any way I wish. The best part though is the fact that you don't even see what I do to you, even after all this time. How does it feel to constantly make a public fool of yourself?

Oh yes, back to the topic. Would you care to comment further on your statement regarding Senatorial pay levels? Perhaps you would like to retract it publicly and let everyone here know it was just another of your lies?

[AngusThermopyle]

Actually, you know what? Don't even bother. I already know you wont be honest, you'll just rationalize as you always do to try to justify your lies. Save everyone the tedium of having to read anymore of your garbage. I shall do as so many others already have and ignore you. Life is too short to waste on the worthless, dishonest and fools. All three of which you appear to embody.

[charter.rights]

Incapable of backing up. Now that truly is ironic considering you are replying to a post in which I provide a Government site that refutes your previously stated "Charter fact" relating to senatorial pay. As for representing most people. Just go over past threads and note how many times people have told you you are full of it. I don't represent most, they do that in ample numbers for themselves.

So after posting your usual crap you then oh so predictably launch into your usual insults. As I've said before, dance little puppet dance. You really are so easy to guide any way I wish. The best part though is the fact that you don't even see what I do to you, even after all this time. How does it feel to constantly make a public fool of yourself?

Oh yes, back to the topic. Would you care to comment further on your statement regarding Senatorial pay levels? Perhaps you would like to retract it publicly and let everyone here know it was just another of your lies?

Ya right. A dead link.

Your skill at observation is lacking. There are many who interested in discussing this with me and others, given the fact that many of the threads I have been in are still going. You problem is that you have run out of material and repeating your opinion over and over again after it being proven wrong is pretty embarrassing for you.

You sir are a liar. You said back about 200 messages ago that you were done and yet you are still here. Quit your lying and suck it up sunshine. You like getting beat up by more intelligent people, like me. Admit it.

Edited December 3, 2010 by charter.rights

[charter.rights]

Actually, you know what? Don't even bother. I already know you wont be honest, you'll just rationalize as you always do to try to justify your lies. Save everyone the tedium of having to read anymore of your garbage. I shall do as so many others already have and ignore you. Life is too short to waste on the worthless, dishonest and fools. All three of which you appear to embody.

Ah....more ad hominem...

And not even inventive stuff.... Your level of debate rivals Mr. Canada. Are you his bum buddy by any chance?

[Saipan]

I'm glad we are back in actual issues

[Smallc]

Ya right. A dead link.

The proper link. Note that these figures are BEFORE tax.

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/parlinfo/lists/Salaries.aspx?Section=b571082f-7b2d-4d6a-b30a-b6025a9cbb98

[AngusThermopyle]

Thank you smallc, I didn't realise I'd screwed up the link. Cerainly puts another ignored members assertions as to pay to the lie.

Edited to add.

Just for fun I did a few quick calculations. If we were to pay leaders on a per capita basis this is pretty much how it would break down.

Stephen Harper governing approx 35 million people paid approx $317,574 = $.09 per person per annum

Chief Clark governing approx 87 people paid approx $243,000 per annum = $2793 per person per annum.

If Harper were paid at this rate he would take home approx 36 billion per annum.

As I said, just for fun, though it does provide some food for thought.

Edited December 3, 2010 by AngusThermopyle

[Topaz]

If taxpayers are so worried or concerned about the money being paid to the First Nation, then you blame 3 parties. The Tories, the Liberals and the First Nations . Ottawa has not done a good enough job keeping track of were the money goes and how the FN's are living in conditions that aren't right. A number of FN feel they have to stay on the reserves because no one outsdie of the reserves cares about their welfare and will not hire them. Yes, they do have number of mental and health problems too but if any of you were to go and live in their shoes, I'm sure you would have your eyes open. Until Canadians accept the FN and treat them like any other people, we will always have problems and so will the FN.

[Shwa]

Incapable of backing up. Now that truly is ironic considering you are replying to a post in which I provide a Government site that refutes your previously stated "Charter fact" relating to senatorial pay.

Are are you asserting that an unelected Senator has only their base senatorial pay of $132k per year to rely on or are they also allowed to have other income sources like, expense accounts, use of government facilities and vehicles, private pensions, stocks, bonds and other final and interests? All of which could be estimated and summed up.

I think the article specifies what should be on the table well evaluating income:

The compensation packages included salary, travel expenses, housing support and unspecified honoraria, she said.

So if you want to start accounting, put ALL income on the table right? Do you think anyone would be a senator if they couldn't enjoy the benefits of ALL their investments and expenses? Let's be honest about that too right?

I wonder what would happen if we factored in the actual time worked as in this article.

During a parliamentary session, senators are permitted to take 21 days off, despite only being compelled to work between 70 and 80 days a year.

So what is more expensive - $243k for some 300+ days per year managing a band of some 300+ people or $132k for maybe "70 and 80" days per year for doing practically nothing? Oh, you will notice in the article that there are some senators that don't even bother to show up for their pay. Oh, some of them do stuff, and they get more money for it:

For this two or three months, senators are paid $130,400 but some get a top-up for holding special positions. The government leader in the Senate, Marjory LeBreton, for example receives an additional $74,400, the Opposition leader $35,500 and the Speaker $54,400.

So Marjorie LeBreton earns close to 200k for some "70 to 80" days work, not including expenses or other income and let's not forget she has been collecting her senatorial pay since 1993. What is $132k X 17? Meanwhile we have poor and underfed children going to foodbanks in the run down hell holes of our cities. But let's focus on a few Indian chiefs, because that is where the real morality plays are being acted out.

Methinks you protest a titch too much. The people in the band, the actual members of the band in the OP article, who are complaining about their own chief's compensation - they have a right to complain. You however, just come off sounding like a cheap, haughty hypocrite with a misplaced sense of righteousness.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Shwa