Low-income seniors

[msj]

Deficit was just one year's worth of interest on the national debt, which btw was HIGHER when Liberal left than in 1993. And that was after Liberals robbed U.I. and pensions and use GST as no one else before or after.

The economy had grown by the time the Liberals were replaced by the CPC so that the budget was in surplus despite the Liberals spending like, well, like Liberals, and despite the Liberals cutting income taxes like a government that wanted to cut taxes.

The CPC's record for cutting taxes is abysmal. Their record for spending is no better than the Liberals.

Sure, they have cut the GST rate which most economists would tell you was bad policy compared to cutting income taxes.

Then the CPC have played with implementing this tax credit and that tax credit (remember the TEMPORARY home reno tax credit last year? Yeah, that's just such great policy ).

I also note that the CPC continued to "rob" the EI fund (it hasn't been called UI in well over a decade so maybe you should get with the program).

As for pensions - the Liberals never robbed the CPP or other pensions.

Yes, they raised the CPP contribution rates - for which the CPC have not done anything to "rectify" other than to implement changes starting in 2012 which will see people who take their CPP at age 60 will lose 36% of their pension compared to the previous 30% early bird reduction.

It's the CPC who have attempted to reduce the GIS pension which was the start of this thread and it's the CPC who have subsequently backed down on this attempt now that it has been exposed by the media.

[Saipan]

We're not over taxed.

Yes, we are. Many business people from Asia went already back (mostly to Hongkong and Malaysia) only because of taxes here.

[msj]

Yes, we are. Many business people from Asia went already back (mostly to Hongkong and Malaysia) only because of taxes here.

Yeah!

Those people came to Canada when our taxes were high and left when our tax rates went down and were lower.

The logic here is simply astounding!

II = ideological idiocy.

[LBloom]

Interesting how far astray this thread has gone. An important part of this story is that the change was going to sneak in under the radar until the opposition suddenly discovered what was, until that point, an unannounced change to the GIS that would affect the poorest of the elderly. Suddenly Diane Findlay was announcing that it would be "studied".

An important facet of this issue is that the people who receive GIS are already below the poverty line. If they try to scrape together a little extra by withdrawing from their legitimate retirement savings at a rate higher than the minimum allowed, say to deal with an unforeseen emergency (seniors often are faced with just such things for needs related to health care, funerals, changes in living circumstances) they will have their GIS reduced.

This was an extraordinarily cruel change to the GIS system - seniors would be faced with a choice of dealing with a real life emergency and poverty later on. Consider a senior who withdraws more than the minimum to bury a life partner only to find that their GIS has been reduced to the point that they cannot afford to pay their electric bill.

No matter how open a mind you may try to keep, this does not reflect well on the government that tried to smuggle this through without letting anybody know what was coming.

[Saipan]

My worry for the aged might be described as those with failing vision that are now being eaten alive by bed bugs in the city of Toronto...the poor old folks can not even see or feel the sting of the sucking parasites...and no one is caring that some old people do not have simple comfort of a clean bed.

They should exercise their vote properly when Liberals started to import those "bugs" from third world countries along with higher crime.

[Saipan]

Sure, they have cut the GST rate which most economists would tell you was bad policy compared to cutting income taxes.

So then Chretien was really an idiot when he run on "killing GST and NAFTA".

Btw, thanks to CPC we weathered the worst economic crises since The Great Depression better than most any country.

As for pensions - the Liberals never robbed the CPP or other pensions.

Liberals (Martin the accounting magician now-you-see-it-now-you-don't) put pensions and E.I. into general revenue - so he can show "balanced" budget.

[Smallc]

Sure, they have cut the GST rate which most economists would tell you was bad policy compared to cutting income taxes.

]

Well, to be fair, they have made significant business tax cuts.

[August1991]

This was an extraordinarily cruel change to the GIS system - seniors would be faced with a choice of dealing with a real life emergency and poverty later on. Consider a senior who withdraws more than the minimum to bury a life partner only to find that their GIS has been reduced to the point that they cannot afford to pay their electric bill.

I suspect that we will hear more such hypothetical stories because the baby boomers are fast approaching retirement and older people tend to vote. This will group, as long as they are alive, will ensure that government tax/subsidy policies favour them.

The stories of starving seniors deserve circumspection. As a group, they are realtively well off.

For the record, a senior who never paid into the CPP and never saved a dime is entitled to about $1200 monthly from GAINS and OAP.

A senior who has only the CPP (and no other savings/source of income) will receive about $1650 monthly through the CPP/GAINS and OAP.

I am astonished to realize that a principal residence is exempt from all these calculations. IOW, the pity the senior who may have savings but has chosen to rent rather than buy.

----

In any case, here's the bottom line. If someone has gone through life in Canada (or at least 40 years after turning 18) and has been unable to save anything other than the CPP, then really, do the rest of owe anything to that person? In particular, should younger people have to pay for the mistakes of older people? Is that a good way to organize a society?

[msj]

Well, to be fair, they have made significant business tax cuts.

You mean, to be fair, at least the CPC followed the schedule as set by the Liberals (and then altered it a bit and lowered corporate taxes a bit more since they - the CPC that is - decided to tax trusts).

[Smallc]

You mean, to be fair, at least the CPC followed the schedule as set by the Liberals (and then altered it a bit and lowered corporate taxes a bit more since they - the CPC that is - decided to tax trusts).

To be fair, you're right....

[msj]

So then Chretien was really an idiot when he run on "killing GST and NAFTA".

No, he was a genius.

He got 3 majority governments and did the right thing by extending NAFTA, keeping the GST, balancing the budget and then significantly decreasing income taxes.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not exactly a big fan of the man (Chretien that is) but I think Mulroney set us up for this and thankfully Chretien/Martin followed through.

Unfortunately, Harper has ruined a good thing with his poor fiscal policies.

Btw, thanks to CPC we weathered the worst economic crises since The Great Depression better than most any country.

I'm willing to wait and see what happens in Canada.

The CPC happen to be the ones who allowed 0% down/40 year amortization mortgages before coming to their senses and changing it to 5/35 (which, in practice, is little different).

No, we aren't going to be as bad as the US (for reasons I will not waste my time on trying to explain to the likes of you) but Canada is going to be living in some interesting times thanks to these types of policies.

Liberals (Martin the accounting magician now-you-see-it-now-you-don't) put pensions and E.I. into general revenue - so he can show "balanced" budget.

When did Martin transfer pensions into general revenue?

Yes, he increased the CPP and got the CPP into a separate fund but those funds have been kept out of the general budget.

As for EI - well, even the CPC have been using it until recently.

[msj]

To be fair, you're right....

Which is part of my point - even a decent, non-ideological, non-idiot, like you will tow the CPC line about them and tax policy.

The Liberals in the early part of this decade cut taxes significantly including personal income tax, capital gains, corporate capital tax, corporate taxes, double tax on dividends.

Ideological idiots like Saipan spew their BS and conveniently ignore such facts which is only slightly worse than the amnesia that decent blokes like you have, imo.

[Smallc]

Which is part of my point - even a decent, non-ideological, non-idiot, like you will tow the CPC line about them and tax policy.

The Liberals in the early part of this decade cut taxes significantly including personal income tax, capital gains, corporate capital tax, corporate taxes, double tax on dividends.

Oh, I realize this. The Liberals in the 90s and early 00s did pretty much everything that a fiscal conservative government should do....and yet Conservative supporters will do everything they can to excuse it. They did it on the backs of the provinces is a common complaint.....a complaint that makes no sense.

[Alta4ever]

No, he was a genius.

He got 3 majority governments .

Only because the right vote was weak and divided, and yet barely able to meek out majorities with 41%, 38%, 40% of the vote, ya genius, he handicapped his own party to keep Martin off his back. Yep genius.

[Jack Weber]

Only because the right vote was weak and divided, and yet barely able to meek out majorities with 41%, 38%, 40% of the vote, ya genius, he handicapped his own party to keep Martin off his back. Yep genius.

And yet your Reformer can't get a majority with a "united" right...

So much for that Albertan "sanity"...

[msj]

And yet your Reformer can't get a majority with a "united" right...

So much for that Albertan "sanity"...

What he said.

[August1991]

Unfortunately, Harper has ruined a good thing with his poor fiscal policies.

msj, I suspect that you hate Reformers and you view Harper as a social conservative.

While you view Canadian federal politics according to such narrow moral grounds, most Canadians view it along regional criteria.

Same difference.

But taxes have nothing to do with your opinion of Harper.

[msj]

msj, I suspect that you hate Reformers and you view Harper as a social conservative.

While you view Canadian federal politics according to such narrow moral grounds, most Canadians view it along regional criteria.

Same difference.

But taxes have nothing to do with your opinion of Harper.

Yeah, that's right, I think Harper is a homophobe etc so instead of complaining about that I talk about fiscal policy for the last couple of decades.

Given that Harper hasn't done much on the "social conservative" front I don't think one can really criticize him unless one is a social conservative who wants him to end gay marriage and restrict abortion - these people must be very disappointed, indeed!

If you were to read any of my criticisms of the CPC they are almost always with respect to fiscal policy because that's what I primarily care about.

I also don't consider fiscal policy to be a matter of morality - there is good policy and bad policy but this is in terms of good policy brings us more economic opportunity and bad policy wastes resources and makes us less efficient. Hardly the morality that most people whine over in these forums.

But no, you know me better than I know myself: when I write the CPC have brought in a myriad of stupid tax credits I'm really saying that the CPC are cavemen from Alberta who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and who want all of us to believe in the goodness of Jesus Christ, Our Lord!.

I can play this game too, though: since you are unable to talk about fiscal policy you try and change the conversation around to something that you can talk about. Something soft and spongy like regionalism and social conservativism.

If you can't discuss the points of an issue you will do your best to change the subject!

Hmmm, maybe you should go into politics.

[Alta4ever]

What he said.

Oh so clever a response. All Harper has managed is the base level of support of the right in this country 34-37%. Which ironically enough is the same level of support of the pc and reform/alliance added together in the 1993/1997/2001 Chretien majorities. Yep the liberals are some kind of geniuses.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Alta4ever

[Saipan]

No, he was a genius.

He got 3 majority governments and did the right thing by extending NAFTA, keeping the GST

Majority. Castro has that.

But the confidence of the investment world got us 62 cents dollar under Chretien.

balancing the budget and then significantly decreasing income taxes.

I already explained the "balancing act". It was mere one year worth of interest on the national debt, which was higher when Liberals left. And it was just shuffling money from pensions and E.I.

GST was designed by previous government to pay off national debt. Why it got higher under Liberals since only Liberals benefited from it? Where did the money go?

Unfortunately, Harper has ruined a good thing with his poor fiscal policies.

Must be why Canada is far ahead in this world economic depression, because Harper ruined it

And our dollar is pretty near same as the US$

I'm willing to wait and see what happens in Canada.

Unless you're moving.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Saipan

[msj]

Majority. Castro has that.

But the confidence of the investment world got us 62 cents dollar under Chretien.

That 62 cents kept Canada in the game and led us to having a strong economy today.

You have no idea how much the US wishes they could do what we did in the 1990's: devalue their currency and get an export led boom in order to balance the federal budget within a few short years, then to turn that into massive income tax cuts and, eventually, a dollar heading towards (and eventually exceeding) par.

I already explained the "balancing act". It was mere one year worth of interest on the national debt, which was higher when Liberals left. And it was just shuffling money from pensions and E.I.

This explains nothing.

Which pensions are you talking about? I'd like to see a reference - maybe a budget document somewhere showing the transfer into general revenue?

As for the interest on national debt - absolute numbers are for idiots (especially ideological ones).

Context comes from comparing numbers to things like GDP, total revenue generated etc... and give a better picture.

GST was designed by previous government to pay off national debt. Why it got higher under Liberals since only Liberals benefited from it? Where did the money go?

Which nicely brings us here - so, the GST "got higher" under the Liberals?

Well, the rate stayed the same at 7%.

No significant changes happened to broaden the tax base so it (I assume you mean revenue generated) couldn't have "got higher" from that.

No, it must be a growing economy (real growth plus inflation) that would lead to the GST revenue collected to be "got higher."

See comments above re: interest and context.

Must be why Canada is far ahead in this world economic depression, because Harper ruined it

And our dollar is pretty near same as the US$

There are many reasons for that.

Even the CPC are not dumb enough to squander our economy in a few short years.

Edited November 28, 2010 by msj

[Saipan]

There are many reasons for that.

There always are

Even the CPC are not dumb enough to squander our economy in a few short years.

No but the liberals are. The only thing they accomplished is decimate our National Defence - to give their buddies fatter brown envelopes under the table. (while not all liberals are the same Liberals are also liberals)

I agree with you on one thing and to borrow your words from previous post: "for reasons I will not waste my time on trying to explain to the likes of you) but Canada is going to be living in some interesting times thanks to these types of policies.

[msj]

I agree with you on one thing and to borrow your words from previous post: "for reasons I will not waste my time on trying to explain to the likes of you) but Canada is going to be living in some interesting times thanks to these types of policies.

The difference being that one can go to any federal budget, go to the CD Howe institute and other "right wing" institutes and see that cutting income taxes is better than cutting GST.

What I post can be backed up.

What you post is ideological idiocy and slogans - as if people going back to Hong Kong are going there because of taxes perhaps being the stupidest example in this thread.

[TimG]

The difference being that one can go to any federal budget, go to the CD Howe institute and other "right wing" institutes and see that cutting income taxes is better than cutting GST.

They also say the HST is a much better tax than the PST but that is not helping BC Liberals. The trouble is most people are hypocrites when it comes to taxes. They want services but they expect other people to pay the taxes for them. The GST/HST remind them every time they buy something that they are the ones who have to pay so they oppose that reminder.

as if people going back to Hong Kong are going there because of taxes perhaps being the stupidest example in this thread.

People go back to Asia for job opportunities. A Chinese immigrant with years experience running large enterprises in HK has no chance of landing a similar job in Canada unless they start their own business. Similar barriers exist for almost every category of professional. Canada has a real problem dealing with highly educated professional immigrants from non-Englishing speaking countries. Edited November 28, 2010 by TimG

[Saipan]

Canada has a real problem dealing with highly educated professional immigrants from non-Englishing speaking countries.

And that is an understatement. For example, foreign doctors are cleaning floor or driving taxi here.