Harper blames Israeli stance for UN snub

[KeyStone]

This does not logically follow, as Israel does not have military forces deployed half way around the world killing the locals, occupying territory, or reforming the government. Israel actually has a credible threat on its border(s). Tell us about Canada and the level again.

There are a few differences, of course.

Firstly, Canada's actions are internationally sanctioned, unlike those of Israel.

Secondly, Canada, is not violating international law in the pursuit of terrorists. They aren't using depleted uranium shells or white phosphourous.

Thirdly, Canada is not inflicting collective punishment on the Afghani people. They are precisely targeting the terrorists. While Israel claims to be doing the same, collateral damage is barely a consideration for Israel, in their pursuit of the militants.

Fourthly, there are many Afghanis who actually want Canada there. I suspect there are few Palestinians who welcome the Israeli tanks when they move in.

But you are right that Israel has a credible threat while Canada does not.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes.

The Mufti and the Führer

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

The al-Husseini clan is still very powerful. It was the Mufti who restored the Dome of the Rock, Al-Aqsa and Omar's mosques to their present glory (esp. the gold plating! $$$). They had all fallen into literal ruins. Either way...the Mufti and the 3rd Reich isn't a conspiracy. He eagerly joined-in and rose to very high rank in a very short time.

[Hazeleyes]

This shows the difference between the 2. Harper willing to put it all on the line for a democratic country surrounded by dictators, where the liberals will as usual, throw thier support behind the dictators.

I know that you will dismiss any critism of Israeli policy, history, treatment of the palestinians but in my book Israel is one of those countries that need to change on a whole lot of fronts.

[bush_cheney2004]

I know that you will dismiss any critism of Israeli policy, history, treatment of the palestinians but in my book Israel is one of those countries that need to change on a whole lot of fronts.

Change in which ways, compared to the same actions taken by a sovereign Canada or United States? Why is Israel not afforded the exact same "level" of respect?

[Hazeleyes]

Exactly, he has the guts to stand up for what is right.

What we only support dictators if they are nice to Israel - pretty shallow politics.

[Hazeleyes]

Change in which ways, compared to the same actions taken by a sovereign Canada or United States? Why is Israel not afforded the exact same "level" of respect?

Canada doesn't have a great record in providing an equal footing for native peoples but I haven't noticed our military lobbing any missles at their reserves - have you. But lets be honest the Israeli military over reacts to the slightest palestinian provocation. Didn't a UN investigation last year show that they bombed a hospital in the Gaza. A second change I would like to see is Israel to stop building on occupied lands in the Westbank. Everyone knows that if there is ever to be peace a two state solution has the best chance. This means that the West bank will be part of that solution but building homes for radical jewish settlers suggests that Israel dispite its verbage has no intention of conducting honest negotiations. Another change is the embargo on food and medicine. Of course again Israel denies this but the UN inspectors insist it is happening. If Canada or the US treated its minorities like Israel treats the Palestinians its citizens would rise up and demand change. The Israeli's that have tried that tactic mostly wind up in jail.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada doesn't have a great record in providing an equal footing for native peoples but I haven't noticed our military lobbing any missles at their reserves - have you.

So you would be OK with Katyusha rockets launched at Hamilton from Caledonia because of land claims that have gone unsettled for decades?

But lets be honest the Israeli military over reacts to the slightest palestinian provocation. Didn't a UN investigation last year show that they bombed a hospital in the Gaza.

Canada has attacked other sovereign states without any "provocation".

A second change I would like to see is Israel to stop building on occupied lands in the Westbank. Everyone knows that if there is ever to be peace a two state solution has the best chance. This means that the West bank will be part of that solution but building homes for radical jewish settlers suggests that Israel dispite its verbage has no intention of conducting honest negotiations.

No, Israel's strategy makes the most sense given the iffy possibility of "peace". It needs to bargain from a position of strength...not weakness.

Another change is the embargo on food and medicine. Of course again Israel denies this but the UN inspectors insist it is happening. If Canada or the US treated its minorities like Israel treats the Palestinians its citizens would rise up and demand change. The Israeli's that have tried that tactic mostly wind up in jail.

Canada supported and enforced crippling sanctions and an embargo for Iraq, without ever being directly threatened.

Why isn't Israel's position evaluated in the same context as actions taken by Canada or the United States to address real or perceived threats? How do you reconcile this disparity? What justifies killing Afghans or overthrowing the democratically elected president of Haiti or bombing Serbs in this context?

[Argus]

In the ongoing conflict, we can agree that Israel conducts itself better than the Palestinians, and we can agree that Israel respects human rights more than Palestine, but neither of those facts means that Israel is blameless nor does it justify every action that Israel does against Palestine.

Why, then, if you agree, do you and others like you focus all your anger and disapproval on the nation you state is the better of the two - and NONE on the Palestinians or other Arabs?

Are there any moves afoot to boycott Arab or Palestinian goods? Are there any attempts to prevent academics from Arab or Palestinian nations from interacting with western academics? Is there any sort of Arabic equivalent among the oh-so-fashionable leftinistas of Israeli Apartheid Week? How many angry denunciations of Palestine has the UN made over the last fifty years? How many resolutions calling on them to reform?

[AngusThermopyle]

Canada, is not violating international law in the pursuit of terrorists. They aren't using depleted uranium shells

Actually you are very wrong on this point. Everyone of our ships that is equipped with a CIWS system uses DP ammunition.

As to your silly point about Israeli missiles killing children. Well it is not Israeli policy to target children. with the suicide murderers they don't give a damn who they kill, the more the merrier for these fun lovers. Actually to the point of using their own children as human shields. I'm so glad you support and admire these types, bravo for you.

Edited November 11, 2010 by AngusThermopyle

[KeyStone]

Why, then, if you agree, do you and others like you focus all your anger and disapproval on the nation you state is the better of the two - and NONE on the Palestinians or other Arabs?

Because the damage that the Israelis inflict on the Palestinians is in far greater proportion than the Palestinians inflict on the Israelis. The other Arab nations and Iran use Palestine as a pawn in their own game against Israel. I don't generally bring it up for debate, because there isn't anyone defending Syria etc, in the context of how they abuse the Palestinians.

Are there any moves afoot to boycott Arab or Palestinian goods?

Israel has ensured that there is no need to boycott Palestinian goods, haven't they?

Not Arab, but certainly there is much talk of boycotts and sanctions against Iran.

Boycotts are what you do to powerful entities who don't listen to reason, when it is the only thing that will make them listen.

There are many ways that Israel punishes the Palestinians.

Are there any attempts to prevent academics from Arab or Palestinian nations from interacting with western academics?

Other than Galloway, none that I am aware of. Occasionally, some hateful cleric gets denied, but no one is banning Palestinian academics as a whole. It is done on a case by case basis, as it should be for Israeli academics.

Is there any sort of Arabic equivalent among the oh-so-fashionable leftinistas of Israeli Apartheid Week?

No, and it is a fair point. Considering that Arab nations treat Jews much worse in Arab nations than the Jews treat the Arabs is Israel, why the inconsistency?

I believe that there are two reasons. One, Israel is looked at, as prosperous. They are not a desperate people trying to eke out a living. The Palestinians on the other hand, barely survive, living conditions are deplorable, and unemployment rates are over 40%. Two, while Palestinians launch the occasional rockets, the state is not sanctioning activity that is in direct violation of international law (the settlements ).

It is about who we feel sorry for - Israel or Palestine. Palestinians have a far worse life than your average Israeli. Israel is not to blame for that obviously, but when we hear the stories about how dire it is in Palestine, it makes us side with them. It is human nature, for many to cheer for the underdog, particularly when the disparity in wealth is so great.

How many angry denunciations of Palestine has the UN made over the last fifty years? How many resolutions calling on them to reform?

I guarantee you that the people of Palestine would be quite happy to have their nation chastised by the UN.

Since, they don't have a nation, the UN really can't do much. There, of course, is also a very big difference between state-sanctioned terrorists, and rogue groups.

Edited November 12, 2010 by KeyStone

[KeyStone]

Actually you are very wrong on this point. Everyone of our ships that is equipped with a CIWS system uses DP ammunition.

As to your silly point about Israeli missiles killing children. Well it is not Israeli policy to target children. with the suicide murderers they don't give a damn who they kill, the more the merrier for these fun lovers. Actually to the point of using their own children as human shields. I'm so glad you support and admire these types, bravo for you.

Angus, so if they are trying to kill terrorists, but they kill chidlren, are the children not still dead, maimed, or otherwise disabled? Do you think telling their parents that the IDF were trying to kill terrorists makes everyone feel better?

The fact of the matter is, that regardless of intention, Israel has killed a lot more Palestinian children, than Palestinians have killed Israeli children. It seems quite clear that Israel has a wonton disregard for human life, given their lack of accuracy, despite having some of the most sophisticated military spyware on the planet.

As for human shields, the Palestinian militants blend in with the civilian population, it is true. Given their vastly inferior military, they can not march in a phalanx in an open field wearing glow in the dark neon uniforms, while Israeli drones disintegrate them. Israel does not have the right to kill innocent women and children, simply because the militants are not making it easy for them to distinguish between military and civilian. I believe that lesson was already learned in Vietnam.

If you want to talk about human shields, let's talk about the IDF cowards, holding Palestinian children at gunpoint and marching them in front of the IDF cowards to open doors and go first in areas where they expect their might be danger.

[Saipan]

There are a few differences, of course.

Firstly, Canada's actions are internationally sanctioned, unlike those of Israel.

Which inter-nations?

The same ones that sanction occupation of Tibet since 1949?

Secondly, Canada, is not violating international law in the pursuit of terrorists.

Which inter-nations?

While Israel claims to be doing the same, collateral damage is barely a consideration for Israel, in their pursuit of the militants.

Exactly the other way 'round.

Fourthly, there are many Afghanis who actually want Canada there. I suspect there are few Palestinians who welcome the Israeli tanks when they move in.

Palestinians can't wait to go to Israel. Often standing in lines.

[dre]

Show me where Israel has launched a full scale invasion of its neighbours'lands.

Show me where Israel has deliberately targeted civilians. As I said, sometimes there's collateral damage. That is NOT the same as deliberately targeting innocents!

Show me an example of an Israeli suicide bomber.

Show me an video clip of Israelis beheading a Palestinian prisoner with a knife!

If you believe that the two cultures are morally equivalent then I'm afraid you and I have no common ground on this issue. Targeting innocents to me is the mark of animals, not human beings.

I never said the two cultures are morally equivalent. I said both sides are in a state of non-compliance, and we should pressure them to comply. Whether you choose to believe it or not, Israels conquest of the occupied territories, and subsquent plundering of the resources and the building of settlements on these lands is an serious breach of treaties that Israel signed in good faith.

We should push palestinians and arab countries to recognize Israel and stop all aggression. And we should push Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

[bush_cheney2004]

There are a few differences, of course.

Firstly, Canada's actions are internationally sanctioned, unlike those of Israel.

Sanctioned by who? Iraq, Serbia, and Haiti did not sanction such actions. Using your definition, the US/UK invasion of Iraq was also "internationally sanctioned".

Secondly, Canada, is not violating international law in the pursuit of terrorists. They aren't using depleted uranium shells or white phosphourous.

Maher Arar would disagree with your assessment. Canada supplies the uranium that becomes nuclear weapons and DU. Canadian forces benefit from munitions that use depleted uranium.

Thirdly, Canada is not inflicting collective punishment on the Afghani people. They are precisely targeting the terrorists. While Israel claims to be doing the same, collateral damage is barely a consideration for Israel, in their pursuit of the militants.

Not so precise, as many Afghan civilians have been killed in operations that involve Canadian forces:

http://mostlywater.org/node/61201

Fourthly, there are many Afghanis who actually want Canada there. I suspect there are few Palestinians who welcome the Israeli tanks when they move in.

They do once the shooting starts.

But you are right that Israel has a credible threat while Canada does not.

So how does this rambling anti-Israeli argument continue in the face of such an obvious disparity in threat? Israel is a sovereign state with every right that Canada has to protect its citizens and interests. Why is it not afforded the exact same stance that Canada has taken while facing far less risk?

[capricorn]

It is about who we feel sorry for - Israel or Palestine. Palestinians have a far worse life than your average Israeli. Israel is not to blame for that obviously, but when we hear the stories about how dire it is in Palestine, it makes us side with them. It is human nature, for many to cheer for the underdog, particularly when the disparity in wealth is so great.

Now I understand why so many hockey fans still cheer for the Leafs.

I guarantee you that the people of Palestine would be quite happy to have their nation chastised by the UN.

Since, they don't have a nation, the UN really can't do much.

Halting criticism of Israel would cut the UN's business in half. Does the UN really want a resolution to this long standing Israeli/Palestine conflict? Just askin'.

[Wild Bill]

I never said the two cultures are morally equivalent. I said both sides are in a state of non-compliance, and we should pressure them to comply. Whether you choose to believe it or not, Israels conquest of the occupied territories, and subsquent plundering of the resources and the building of settlements on these lands is an serious breach of treaties that Israel signed in good faith.

We should push palestinians and arab countries to recognize Israel and stop all aggression. And we should push Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

I would agree about building settlements on occupied territory but that's about it.

It's all well and good to talk about "pushing both sides to compromise". We've been doing that for decades. The problem is, it all boils down to getting the Palestinians to renounce violence FIRST!

Israel tried handing back land. As I said, their enemies just seized the opportunity to have closer rocket launcher sites! Israel has to have some confidence that they will not have rockets randomly landing on the heads of their men, women and children. They need to expect that they can walk their streets without being blown up.

So far all that's happened is that Israel has been made a fool repeatedly, like Charlie Brown and Lucy holding the football. Only if and when this problem is addressed would Israel be less than a full fledged blooming idiot to return any occupied land.

If someone keeps whacking you in the head it just doesn't make sense to "encourage compromise on both sides". The first necessary step is to get that person to stop whacking you. Afterwards, it's much easier to compromise without the headache.

[Argus]

Those must be produced by the same people that supply the IDF with the special non child killing missiles.

Oh, I forgot. The children aren't really dead, as long as the 'intention' was to get a terrorist.

Did you know that over 20,000 French civilians were killed during the D-Day invasions, mostly as a result of allied bombing and shelling? War doesn't leave a lot of room for safety for civilians. It's unfortunate, but that's not the same thing as deliberately planning, organizing, and arranging for a naive, guileless young man to go into a pizza shop full of teenagers and blow himself and them up.

[Argus]

Canada doesn't have a great record in providing an equal footing for native peoples but I haven't noticed our military lobbing any missles at their reserves - have you. But lets be honest the Israeli military over reacts to the slightest palestinian provocation. Didn't a UN investigation last year show that they bombed a hospital in the Gaza.

No, actually.

[Argus]

It is about who we feel sorry for - Israel or Palestine. Palestinians have a far worse life than your average Israeli. Israel is not to blame for that obviously, but when we hear the stories about how dire it is in Palestine, it makes us side with them. It is human nature, for many to cheer for the underdog, particularly when the disparity in wealth is so great.

That is the emotional response, but lacks logic. The major cause of the Palestinians' difficulties is the Palestinians' behaviour. Why is there a wall in place? Because the Palestinians suicide bombers were blowing themselves up every time they could find more than a half dozen Israelis standing together. Why is unemployment so high among them? Because Palestinian workers were attacking and murdering random Israelis. Oh yes, not all of them by any means, but the attacks happened often enough and seemed to enjoy such broad public support among Palestinians that now nobody wants to employ Palestinians and it's almost impossible for them to get through the screening to get to work every day. Why have the Israelis put a stranglehold on goods going into Palestinian territory? Because of the rockets and mortars which keep being fired into Israel.

[Moonlight Graham]

If you can see the political benefit of alienating Muslim voters who outnumber Jewish voters by at least 2 to 1, please let me know. In addition, the Jewish population in Canada is declining while the Muslim population is skyrocketing. To top it off, Jewish voters have overwhelmingly supported the Liberal Party so there will only be limited movement as a result of the Conservatives' more robust defense of Israel. So in summary - win over a few Jewish voters at the expense of alienating most, if not all Muslims? Show me the vote-grabbing in that. Seems like standing on principle to me.

well i'm not sure it's quite 2 to 1 yet, but it's getting close, Wiki says about 400,000 Jews, 700,000 muslims in Canada.

No, this doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of votes. However, lobbies, and the money that comes with their support, is different beast than raw pop #'s.

[bush_cheney2004]

....No, this doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of votes. However, lobbies, and the money that comes with their support, is different beast than raw pop #'s.

Agreed...particularly when one includes the "Christians", conspicuously absent from this debate.

[dre]

That is the emotional response, but lacks logic. The major cause of the Palestinians' difficulties is the Palestinians' behaviour. Why is there a wall in place? Because the Palestinians suicide bombers were blowing themselves up every time they could find more than a half dozen Israelis standing together. Why is unemployment so high among them? Because Palestinian workers were attacking and murdering random Israelis. Oh yes, not all of them by any means, but the attacks happened often enough and seemed to enjoy such broad public support among Palestinians that now nobody wants to employ Palestinians and it's almost impossible for them to get through the screening to get to work every day. Why have the Israelis put a stranglehold on goods going into Palestinian territory? Because of the rockets and mortars which keep being fired into Israel.

The major cause of the Palestinians' difficulties is the Palestinians' behaviour.

No thats not even close to true. The people living in the occupied terrority today have almost nothing to do with the cause that conflict. They have not a thing to do with the dispute between Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syrica, Lebanon, and Israel which lead to the occupation. Most of them werent even alive yet.

Theyre behaving about how one would EXPECT an occupied people to behave.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....Theyre behaving about how one would EXPECT an occupied people to behave.

That's swell...because the occupiers are behaving just as we would EXPECT them to behave as well.

[dre]

I would agree about building settlements on occupied territory but that's about it.

It's all well and good to talk about "pushing both sides to compromise". We've been doing that for decades. The problem is, it all boils down to getting the Palestinians to renounce violence FIRST!

Israel tried handing back land. As I said, their enemies just seized the opportunity to have closer rocket launcher sites! Israel has to have some confidence that they will not have rockets randomly landing on the heads of their men, women and children. They need to expect that they can walk their streets without being blown up.

So far all that's happened is that Israel has been made a fool repeatedly, like Charlie Brown and Lucy holding the football. Only if and when this problem is addressed would Israel be less than a full fledged blooming idiot to return any occupied land.

If someone keeps whacking you in the head it just doesn't make sense to "encourage compromise on both sides". The first necessary step is to get that person to stop whacking you. Afterwards, it's much easier to compromise without the headache.

It's all well and good to talk about "pushing both sides to compromise". We've been doing that for decades. The problem is, it all boils down to getting the Palestinians to renounce violence FIRST!

Thats just not realistic, and it wouldnt work anyways. Even if violence stopped Israel would not leave. In fact violence from the west bank is at an all time low, and the authority there is relatively moderate. Yet settlement building has INCREASED.

Israel wants the land and the resources on it... they consider it vital to their survival, and nothing the palestinians do will change that.

Youre making the mistake of assuming that this whole thing is driven by security... its not. Drilling wells, building pipelines, and towns are not security related activities. They are civilian in nature, and colonial.

Even if there had never been a single act of violence on the part of palestinian people after the 67 war Israel would STILL be there.

The best we can hope for is a series of baby steps on both sides.

[William Ashley]

So how does this rambling anti-Israeli argument continue in the face of such an obvious disparity in threat? Israel is a sovereign state with every right that Canada has to protect its citizens and interests. Why is it not afforded the exact same stance that Canada has taken while facing far less risk?

Actually the thing about Israel is that the Balfour Declaration only granted parts of Transjordan to Israel - and Israel violated the agreements by smuggling over the immigration limits. More or less there were wars where Israel annexed other territories contrary to the Balfour Declaration.

End of story the war escalated and western nations intervened such as the Suez Crisis / Yom Kippur war etc..

Israel Annexed other territories (an annex much like most of Canada isn't actually fully sovereign as long as the other sovereign entity has claim, but it can be mediated by treaty - but the terms of the treaty must be adhered to or else treaties can also become void. Treaties also have to hold force on the same grounds as contracts, that is not under a situation of duress, and cognizance of the meaning of the treaty and no unknown stipulations that can sway the adherence to it.

Israel although I don't question anyones right to independence as we are all individuals sharing the same planet - has done various questionable acts including violations of international law that would constitute war crimes.

I'm not advocating for the complete annihilation of Israel, and I have nothing against Jews or Israelis personally, I've actually been somewhat amiable with them - I accepted an engagement to an Orthodox Jew, I'm circumsized, I shared airtime with Israeli djs, much like I've been amiable with Palestinians - I honestly want to see peace, but i understand both sides to the situation - and it honestly is brought on by minority groups, many of the "people effected" really do want things to be better, but those minority groups destabilize things - but it is the Palestinians who have it worse because they are in a ghetto.

I'd just like to state (almost no state is legitimate on a full basis of law) most are rule by force. You can think they are but if you research it then you will realize self recognition, capacity for communication, and capacity to maintain ones existance are all states are. Where you draw the overall intercooperation for continuance solidarity, what have you is different for different states, and that is the world for you. Israel both has arguments for and against it, so does Canada, so does the US, so does most of the world.

the only real basis is those three things, whatever name you give them, and then it is up to the success of your state. Of course we all know the state of the world.. so this is oversimplifying it.

Edited November 12, 2010 by William Ashley