$5 Billion Renovation for the Federal Parliament

[Smallc]

I agree they should be restored but five thousand million dollars seems like a lot of money to me. The things aren't even 100 years old yet.

The East and West Blocks are 150 years old (the oldest parts), and the Library (which has already been refurbished) is 125 years old. It's time for them to be repaired and brought up to code. Their original character (and pretty much everything about them) has to be maintained. The cost is understandable.

[The_Squid]

I won't quibble about the dollars... $5 billion over a 25 year project... that's a mere $200,000,000 (200 million) per year.... practically pennies, right?

The issues are (to me), who gets the coin and how were they picked for the job. Government must be seen to have a fair process so that Canadians can get value for money. Once these projects get handed to the unqualified buddies, whose only qualifications were that they knew which palms to grease, it becomes an issue of quality workmanship and, of course, criminal fraud.

Are we seeing the beginnings of this?

The RCMP is investigating a $9-million West Block contract awarded to stonemasonry firm LM Sauvé that hired a Tory supporter to help in its dealings with the federal government.

In light of the news, the Government Operations Committee has initiated a study into the way construction contracts are tendered at Public Works.

------------------------------

A recent report by Radio-Canada and the Globe and Mail stated that the RCMP investigation is looking at the relationship between bricklaying firm LM Sauvé and Gilles Varin, a Quebec Conservative supporter, and whether any unregistered lobbying and anti-corruption laws were broken.

Owner Paul Sauvé said that he hired Mr. Varin specifically because Mr. Varin told him he had "close friends" at Public Works, and could work on Mr. Sauvé's behalf to get the contract. During 2007 and 2008, Mr. Sauvé paid Mr. Varin $140,000 in the form of monthly payments.

Mr. Varin did not register as a lobbyist for LM Sauvé, and he has said that he simply sent Mr. Sauvé's resume over to Public Works via a friend. LM Sauvé eventually won the contract for the West Block repairs, although they were never completed as the company went bankrupt.

http://www.hilltimes.com/page/view/estblock-10-25-2010

[dre]

They key for projects like this is to make sure the process is very public. Information on contract negotiations, bids, and expenditures should all be completely open to the public.

If thats not happening, we know for a fact we are being ripped off.

[Sir Bandelot]

The plot thickens.

Bloc links Tory fundraiser to Mafia

Bloc Leader Gilles Duceppe told the House of Commons on Tuesday that a Tory fundraiser in Montreal in January 2009 was held at a restaurant owned by a man with links to a Mafia clan.

"The owner of the restaurant where the cocktail party took place, Mr. Riccardo Padulo, is close to the Vito Rizzuto family, an influential member of the Mafia," Duceppe said.

Are you sure, Mr. Duceppe? How do you know this?...

[eyeball]

Apparently you missed the part where they said the buildings are at the end of their lives and are now too dangerous to be kept open any longer. You want them to collapse on the heads of the general public?

No, but who's going to complain if they collapse on the heads of the politicians? It would sort of be like when a ship load of lawyers sink to the bottom.

[William Ashley]

It seems that some of the money founds its hands into what is called "organized crime"

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1210031.html

Hmm lets check the employment lists and see if the funding from these guys goes into the CPC?

Building Scandal anyone - a parliament gate would have you

Maybe there is a bigger reason why the Conservative war chest is far more filled - perhaps "missing resources" that are unaccounted for - resources have monetary values - hundreds of dollars for just one log---- now how many other "stimulus projects" dropped some assets off the radar.. hmmm, where did they end up?

The WOOD GATE mystery is still unsolved..

and we all know about

house gate

could there be a bigger reason for ouimets arrests?

perhaps to silence him?

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/quebec-biker-charged-with-22-murders-106596263.html

Where is the money coming from hmmmm...

Is the CPC being financed by organized crime?

and vice versa???

All I know is that the events seem to have happened. The liberals funded their own party but it seems now that the conservative government has financed organized crime!!! Now you may joke they are one and the same, but this is a notable breach of trust on spending of the tax payers funds. As well as Hells's funds. Could payoffs go even deeper into policing in Canada- paying off the government not to act? This working government-criminal arrangment?

Is it beyond the possible. You be the judge - no one else will likely be.

Edited November 3, 2010 by William Ashley

[Bonam]

Given a quick look at what has to be done, the cost doesn't seem unreasonable at all. People may not want to hear it but that's what these kinds of projects cost these days. Don't forget that this isn't a typical construction job but a delicate restoration of very old and very symbolic buildings.

[ToadBrother]

Given a quick look at what has to be done, the cost doesn't seem unreasonable at all. People may not want to hear it but that's what these kinds of projects cost these days. Don't forget that this isn't a typical construction job but a delicate restoration of very old and very symbolic buildings.

Exactly. Yes, it sucks, but maintaining such buildings is expensive, but worth it. What's the alternative? Let it fall into ruin? Old buildings are expensive.

[Bonam]

Once these projects get handed to the unqualified buddies, whose only qualifications were that they knew which palms to grease, it becomes an issue of quality workmanship and, of course, criminal fraud.

Are we seeing the beginnings of this?

Look, a 5 billion dollar project like this is going to involve hundreds if not thousands of separate contracts to a wide range of firms. Many businesses have at some point had some interaction with the government or some party, whether it was support, endorsement, or whatever else. So you find one $9 million contract out of that $5 billion pile that happened to go to a company that hired a tory supporter. Big freaking deal, lots of people are tory supporters, and lots of people get hired by various companies, there's a big intersection there. Should we ban every company that's ever hired a tory supporter from working on government projects? I guess we should do the same for companies that have ever hired liberal supporters. Whoops, that leaves about 0 companies to pick from.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Bonam

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Look, a 5 billion dollar project like this is going to involve hundreds if not thousands of separate contracts to a wide range of firms. Many businesses have at some point had some interaction with the government or some party, whether it was support, endorsement, or whatever else. So you find one $9 million contract out of that $5 billion pile that happened to go to a company that hired a tory supporter. Big freaking deal, lots of people are tory supporters, and lots of people get hired by various companies, there's a big intersection there. Should we ban every company that's ever hired a tory supporter from working on government projects? I guess we should do the same for companies that have ever hired liberal supporters. Whoops, that leaves about 0 companies to pick from.

Think about that. Why not ban corporate political contributions, and ban the lobbyists while we are at it.

[Smallc]

Think about that. Why not ban corporate political contributions, and ban the lobbyists while we are at it.

Corporate political contributions were banned almost a decade ago.

[August1991]

My first thought on reading this was to wonder if we couldn't just tear them all down and build something new for half or a third the cost. I dunno, though, whether Canadians want to replace these beautiful old buildings with another glass and steel office tower. They clearly mean little to August, but then, Canada means little to August.

...

So it's not like you hire a crew to just rip out the old drywall and slap up a new sheet and paint it. Instead you hire a whole bunch of master masons to carefully work free every stone, examine it, then put it back in place with reinforcing or repair.

Argus, do you even get my points in my OP?

As a typical federal bureaucrat, you are saying that "this is what it costs." (More senior bureaucrats would say, "This is a symbol of Canada.")

Argus, those arguments don't work any more. Ordinary Canadians are tired of paying taxes for this kind of nonsense.

The federal government is not Canada. Canada is all the people who live here and what they do. Canada is all the rocks and trees. Canada is far larger than any federal building in Ottawa.

The federal parliament building could collapse in an earthquake but Canada would still exist.

Edited November 5, 2010 by August1991

[Smallc]

If we're willing to let our national treasures, institutions, and historical sites collapse, what do we as a country really stand for though? Why do we even bother to exist?

You may not like it August, but this simply is what things cost. There is no other way to say it, and I don't care what "ordinary Canadians" like you think - in situations like this, you're irrational.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Smallc

[August1991]

If we're willing to let our national treasures, institutions, and historical sites collapse, what do we as a country really stand for though? Why do we even bother to exist?

Smallc, that's a sad statement.

Canada, of all countries, is surely more than national treasures, institutions, and historical sites.

---

Turks occupied Bulgaria for 500 years and yet Bulgarians still exist today.

Canada is far larger than Bulgaria. Our country extends well beyond national treasures, institutions, and historical sites. Canada is much, much more than a federal parliament building.

If I were Stephen Harper, I would stop this renovation. The $5 billion should be spent elsewhere in Canada, or simply left in the pockets of ordinary Canadians.

In pure political terms, if Harper approves this expenditure (and he has already for 24 Sussex), Harper will become a Liberal: "Ottawa is entitled to its entitlements."

[Evening Star]

Smallc, that's a sad statement.

Canada, of all countries, is surely more than national treasures, institutions, and historical sites.

It is. That doesn't mean they're not important though. And compared to many other countries, we don't really have all that many great historical buildings. The Parliament buildings are magnificent. We need to maintain them.

[August1991]

The Parliament buildings are magnificent. We need to maintain them.

For $5 billion dollars?

Evening Star, on this point, I think that I have a better understanding of Canada, and Canadians.

---

IMHO, federal politicians/bureaucrats must understand that they serve at our pleasure.

Canada works best when Canadians are not forced to choose between their home, and Ottawa.

Edited November 5, 2010 by August1991

[Smallc]

Smallc, that's a sad statement.

Canada, of all countries, is surely more than national treasures, institutions, and historical sites.

I'm sure you didn't understand what I said. We are certainly more than our national treasures. That said, how we treat those treasures certainly speaks volumes of us.

If I were Stephen Harper, I would stop this renovation. The $5 billion should be spent elsewhere in Canada, or simply left in the pockets of ordinary Canadians

Oh, and that is one of the most short sighted things that I've ever heard anyone say.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Smallc

[Argus]

Argus, do you even get my points in my OP?

Maybe you should work on your communications skills.

As a typical federal bureaucrat, you are saying that "this is what it costs." (More senior bureaucrats would say, "This is a symbol of Canada.")

Argus, those arguments don't work any more. Ordinary Canadians are tired of paying taxes for this kind of nonsense.

You're not an ordinary Canadian. You're an ordinary Quebecois separatist. Understandably, you care little for preserving historical Canadian properties.

The federal parliament building could collapse in an earthquake but Canada would still exist.

Yes, but it would still need to have a government, and that government would need a home. The Canadian parliamentary buildings are not ordinary buildings, not even for their time. Veritable herds of master masons and artists spent decades on the carvings and sculptures which adorn their walls. What would you suggest be done? Tear them down and put up a few office towers?

Edited November 5, 2010 by Argus

[Smallc]

August, right now they're doing a very expensive exterior restoration of the Quebec Parliament Building. What do you think about that?

[g_bambino]

The Canadian parliamentary buildings are not ordinary buildings, not even for their time. Veritable herds of master masons and artists spent decades on the carvings and sculptures which adorn their walls. What would you suggest be done? Tear them down and put up a few office towers?

There was a proposal to do just that back in the 60s. That was what everyone did back in the 60s, and look at the main legacy left to us by that attitude: besides a few modernist gems, the majority of what we lost heritage structures for was highways and cheap, contractor-designed slabs in either wind-swept plazas or acres of patchy grass.

So, I'm all for preservation of our built heritage, and Parliament Hill truly is a treasure: the East and West Blocks are two of the few remaining examples of Victorian High Gothic left in the world, and are even rarer for having unique Canadian twists on the style. But, as an architect who's worked on 30, 50 million dollar projects, for governments and private entities alike, I still have a seriously difficult time wrapping my head around the five billion dollar cost for these renovations. Yes, I'm as aware of the scope of this work as the rest of us - getting new wiring, emergency, and HVAC systems through heritage structures; the need for historical research and reproduction; the insertion of new buildings within, under, and around the existing buildings; the uniqueness and complexity of the systems needed for these spaces; the moving and removing of people and equipment in stages while spaces are worked on; specialty labour for stonemasonry, woodworking, stained glass, and paint restoration; and on and on - but... five billion just seems astronomical. Two billion, maybe. But five?

Either this project takes in much, much more than what's been told publicly (entirely possible) or the costs have been inflated by contractors (also entirely possible (and quite common), especially with a client so big and complex as the federal Crown and all its departments).

[c/e]

Edited November 5, 2010 by g_bambino

[Smallc]

Well, you're right Bambino. The cost of the renovation over 25 years is actually $2.5B. There is a proposal to build more buildings, including a very large one. It is if that is done that the price tag rises to $5B. Some of that will probably go ahead, and some probably want. As it stands now, the government is too scattered and that makes security and logistics very expensive and very challenging.

[g_bambino]

Well, you're right Bambino. The cost of the renovation over 25 years is actually $2.5B. There is a proposal to build more buildings, including a very large one. It is if that is done that the price tag rises to $5B. Some of that will probably go ahead, and some probably want. As it stands now, the government is too scattered and that makes security and logistics very expensive and very challenging.

Daniel Liebskind's addition to the Royal Ontario Museum cost $270 million. Frank Gehry's renovation of the Art Gallery of Ontario cost the same. Both were very complex buildings with highly unusual components. So, if half of the five billion dollar total is for new buildings, we'd better see nine stunning structures added to the Ottawa skyline at the end of it all.

[+]

Edited November 5, 2010 by g_bambino

[Topaz]

The Tories were warned that the bid process of 1.5 Billion wasn't sound and could open up to legal challenges and possible conflict of interest, Michael Fortier, was the minister and left his job for a bank job, I wonder why? Screw up the job and then just walk away and he's not the only one. Greg Thompson, screwed up the Vets and walks away with pay cheques and pensions, while NOT doing their jobs! http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/breakingnews/ottawa-was-warned-that-15-billion-public-works-bid-scheme-unsound-106718888.html

[Argus]

So, I'm all for preservation of our built heritage, and Parliament Hill truly is a treasure: the East and West Blocks are two of the few remaining examples of Victorian High Gothic left in the world, and are even rarer for having unique Canadian twists on the style. But, as an architect who's worked on 30, 50 million dollar projects, for governments and private entities alike, I still have a seriously difficult time wrapping my head around the five billion dollar cost for these renovations. Yes, I'm as aware of the scope of this work as the rest of us - getting new wiring, emergency, and HVAC systems through heritage structures; the need for historical research and reproduction; the insertion of new buildings within, under, and around the existing buildings; the uniqueness and complexity of the systems needed for these spaces; the moving and removing of people and equipment in stages while spaces are worked on; specialty labour for stonemasonry, woodworking, stained glass, and paint restoration; and on and on - but... five billion just seems astronomical. Two billion, maybe. But five?

I'm pretty much in agreement. I think the work has to be done and realize its painstaking and complex work but - five billion dollars? I'd really like to see the whole project analyzed by the AG's office.

[myata]

No, "they" won't get the message and they won't stop. Why would they? They have guaranteed ticket to power, courtesy of our eternal duopoly and bored to death voter, and so it's not going to change anytime soon (or ever?). So better get used to it, as more good news will be coming, guaranteed!