Canadian Seat on U.N. Security Council

[grainfedprairieboy]

Canada announced a new deal strengthening the trade relationship with Israel less than a day before the vote:

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Insiders+surprised+Israel+trade+announcement+ahead+seat+vote/3654742/story.html

Obviously, this detracted from any potential votes among the Muslim bloc and their supporters. Given the timing, it seems that there are only a few possibilities:

1) the government deliberately wanted to make a statement that Canada will support Israel even at the cost of international clout and convenience

2) the government wanted the UN seat but was stupid enough to make a mistake like announcing this deal the day before, indicating utter incompetence

3) the government did not want the UN seat, maybe they wanted to lose so they'd have something to blame on Ignatieff, or maybe Harper disdains the UN as much as some posters here do, so they deliberately released this announcement to sabotage their own chances

Somehow the concept that Canada should have known better then to sign any agreement that may be conceived as support of an enemy of Islam and most of the world's theocracies prior to them voting sanitises the insanity that is the Middle East and certainly makes a mockery of the military deaths, hundreds of millions of man hours and billions of dollars committed and volunteered by Canada in the founding and pursuit of global peace and security.

I prefer my governments don't sneak around or kowtow to despots or pander to public perceptions of foreigners. The Canadian government has one role in regards to foreign affairs and that is to advance the interests of the Canadian people at the expense of those of other nations. If I want the interests of foreigners outside of Canada to supersede the desire of Canadians, say regarding the environment or hundreds of bogus UN edicts then by gum, I'll start voting NDP.

I strongly support Canada reducing it's involvement with the UN until such time as it is at least as undemocractic, ineffective, demographically lopsided and corrupt as say; the Canadian Senate.

[waldo]

of course, timing... is everything. Insiders surprised by Israel trade announcement ahead of UN seat vote

International Trade Minister Peter Van Loan has announced a bid to strengthen the trade relationship with Israel — a move whose timing could affect Canada’s bid to win a seat on the United Nations Security Council.

The 192-member General Assembly votes Tuesday for five new members of the 15-member council — with Canada locked in a close three-way race against Germany and Portugal for two seats reserved for Western powers.

Since Arab and Muslim countries either control or have varying degrees of influence over a majority of the votes in the assembly, Van Loan’s announcement has the potential to lose Canada support in the ballot.

The so-called Arab and Muslim “automatic majority” has for years sought to isolate Israel at the world body, and denounces moves it considers to be pro-Israeli.

“Sometimes even the government works in silos,” quipped one. Others expressed privately that Van Loan’s office might have waited a day or two

now..... some, but certainly not waldo, might suggest a purposeful scuttling by Harper Conservatives... in line with the complete disdain they have shown for the UN these last four years. Or is it just an example of the much hyped PMO/Harper control misfiring?

Canada announced a new deal strengthening the trade relationship with Israel less than a day before the vote:

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Insiders+surprised+Israel+trade+announcement+ahead+seat+vote/3654742/story.html

Obviously, this detracted from any potential votes among the Muslim bloc and their supporters. Given the timing, it seems that there are only a few possibilities:

1) the government deliberately wanted to make a statement that Canada will support Israel even at the cost of international clout and convenience

2) the government wanted the UN seat but was stupid enough to make a mistake like announcing this deal the day before, indicating utter incompetence

3) the government did not want the UN seat, maybe they wanted to lose so they'd have something to blame on Ignatieff, or maybe Harper disdains the UN as much as some posters here do, so they deliberately released this announcement to sabotage their own chances

waldo previously opines door #2's Conservative incompetence... with a smattering of door #3's Harper disdain for the UN thrown in for good measure.

[Argus]

Of course it doesn't help as well that Canada is in a squabble (that we lost) with the United Arab Emerites. Pissing off the Arabs has the same effect as killing their support.

So you're saying Canada's foreign policy should be whatever Muslim dictators think it should be. Have I got that right?

[capricorn]

So do we agree that the Conservatives screwed up the appointment to the UNSC because of poor foreign and domestic policy?

Anti-Conservatives have so few good days, I'm content letting them gloat over the loss of Canada's bid for a seat.

The CBC did off-camera interviews both before and after the vote and 90% of the respondents said they did not even know what Ignatieff said. They admitted that Canada's stance on Israel had an influence on how many of them voted.

Conservative ads will surely apprise Canadians who didn't know of Ignatieff's ill advised comments.

Of course it doesn't help as well that Canada is in a squabble (that we lost) with the United Arab Emerites. Pissing off the Arabs has the same effect as killing their support.

So you think Canada should bow to blackmail by the UAE to grant them more landing rights in Canada? How about blaming the UAE for its lack of diplomacy? Stranding another country's top officials and hindering its military forces in order to obtain an economic benefit is no way to treat a supposed friend and ally.

[nicky10013]

Anti-Conservatives have so few good days, I'm content letting them gloat over the loss of Canada's bid for a seat.

So, when was the last good day Harper has had? He's been pilloried by even his base on quite a few issues recently. Someone is delusional.

Conservative ads will surely apprise Canadians who didn't know of Ignatieff's ill advised comments.

Ah, so you're betting that Canadians are stupid. Again. Just like the last prorogation. Interesting. Tell me, what percentage of Canadians do you think will overlook the notion that by blaming Ignatieff, Harper is essentially saying Ignatieff is more important than Harper on the world stage?

So you think Canada should bow to blackmail by the UAE to grant them more landing rights in Canada? How about blaming the UAE for its lack of diplomacy? Stranding another country's top officials and hindering its military forces in order to obtain an economic benefit is no way to treat a supposed friend and ally.

It would be blackmail if that was the only part of the story. It isn't. The relationship with the UAE is a complicated one and one that Harper bungled big time.

[nicky10013]

So you're saying Canada's foreign policy should be whatever Muslim dictators think it should be. Have I got that right?

A simple statement from a simple mind.

[nicky10013]

Yes it is Harper's foreign policy that made us lose the seat. But why do you include all these things, yet deny the Harper gov's pro-Israel policies/stances is part of this same foreign policy? You do realize that Muslim countries also have a vote, and have some solidarity at that.

All of these things, good or bad, are a part of Harper's foreign policy, which was unquestionably the main factor of why Canada lost the seat. It would be no different had they won.

Israel did have something to do with it. I've always said that being so pro-Israeli is a bad thing because it destroys Canada's reputation as an honest broker. It's also just wrong due to the way Israel operates, just like we shouldn't support Palestine because of the way they operate as well.

[nicky10013]

If you think Liberals under their current leader are progressive at all then I got a bridge to sell you. What a bunch of Bull. Last I saw the Conservatives are the ones talking about increasing healthcare transfers after the Liberals cut them to something like 12% from 30%. Seriously with the Cons and Liberals you pick which progressive issues you care about. With the NDP it isn't so.

Yeah, the NDP can make those promises because they'll never be in power. Just like the Bloc.

[Molly]

Last I saw the Conservatives are the ones talking about increasing healthcare transfers after the Liberals cut them to something like 12% from 30%.

Yeah, that would be the Conservatives, who brought us the new improved $55 billion deficit. I rather doubt they'll be restoring much of anything any time soon. They've already spent everything we have- accomplished that before there was a cloud on the economic horizon.

Wizards. They can make balanced budgets disappear.

[nicky10013]

Bullshit. We're not blindly supporting Israel. We're simply opposing the endless stream of repetitive, one-sided, idiotic resolutions the Muslim block keeps bringing forth.

Oh please, I've never seen a more naive statement in my life.

Ah yes, the Palestinians fire rockets into Israel for weeks, the Israelis finally bomb some rocket sites, and we should condemn both sides. No, sorry, that's spinelessness, not neutrality.

At this point, it's merely a cycle of violence. Each rocket from both sides is a retaliation for something that happened previously. To assume anything otherwise is to be blind to the actual situation.

Really? Can you tell me how many U.N. resolutions condemned Isreal's human rights abuses over the last ten years vs how many condenmed Palestinians' human rights abuses? Just for the hell of it, how many condemned human rights abuses in other Muslim states?

People blindly take both sides. You're one of them with Israel. Other Muslim countries blindly supports Palestine. You're both wrong. So, I wouldn't be condemning Muslim states which, when on the issue of Israel and Palestine, you essentially have the same position.

Would it surprise you if I suggested that more than 100 times as many resolutions condemned Israel as condemned the entire 60 members of the Muslim block combined?

Would it surprise you if I asked for proof?

The fact you think the UN, a collection of states which, for the most part, have absolutely no respect for human rights, is rewarding Portugal for its respect for human rights is ludicrously silly.

When did I ever mention anything about human rights?

Libya - a country with well documented ties to terrorist organizations and an abysmal human rights record has been elected by a majority of its fellow U.N. members to serve on the United Nations' Human Rights Council. In a secret ballot Libya received 155 votes and will serve a three year term. :lol: :lol:

Oh if ONLY our reputation was as good as Libya!

They got 155 votes. Roughly 3/4ers of nations voted for Libya. Considering the world is 60% democratic, a LOT of democracies voted for Libya.

[nicky10013]

One more reason to dislike the UN General Assembly. A bunch of corrupt, religious, dictatorships going against a country that actually showed some principled stances. I'll put this question forward. If the US was not a permanent member of the council, do you think they would ever get on it? Probably not.

I disagree. You can't fault the UN for snubbing Canada when we've snubbed the UN. We've never had a problem before, so is that a problem with the UN or a problem with this government?

Furthermore, taking a "principled" stand, presumably the support of Israel isn't a principled one. If we're protecting "democracy" in the middle east, Israel's human right's abuses are as bad as the Palestinian's. So, what our principled stand is I have no idea.

[charter.rights]

Conservative ads will surely apprise Canadians who didn't know of Ignatieff's ill advised comments.

It doesn't matter whether Canadians know about Ignatieff's comments. All that does matter is that the majority of the UN delegations didn't know before they voted and that leads either to the Conservative's incompetence in trying for a seat on the UNSC, or a deliberate souring of relations with not only the UN but with Arab states. That is enough to suggest that Canada is incapable of representing the world in determination of fairness.

But if you want to get into it, the Conservative government's record on human rights, and undemocratic actions added enough fuel to suggest that Harper is out of touch with the rest of the world. And lastly adding to the fact that he pissed off the UAE he is not a world renowned diplomat worthy of such a seat.

So you think Canada should bow to blackmail by the UAE to grant them more landing rights in Canada? How about blaming the UAE for its lack of diplomacy? Stranding another country's top officials and hindering its military forces in order to obtain an economic benefit is no way to treat a supposed friend and ally.

In your simplistic way you diminish the Conservatives ability to negotiate for a fair and reasonable solution to the UAE's request for greater air access in Canada. Of course the banishment from UAE airspace was a 'last straw' attempt at trying to get a reasonable compromise. But it does show that the Conservatives ignored the UAE and now Canadians are suffering the consequences for that.

[Saipan]

Israel's human right's abuses are as bad as the Palestinian's. So, what our principled stand is I have no idea.

Israel is executing people in the streets, for collaboration with palestinians, without a court?

Really?

Are they strapping explosives to their own kids?

[nicky10013]

Israel is executing people in the streets, for collaboration with palestinians, without a court?

Really?

Are they strapping explosives to their own kids?

No they're not strapping explosives to their kids, but dropping bombs on known hospitals, using white phosphorus, the policy of demolishing entire apartment blocks where one person purpotrated an attack are pretty bad in their own right.

They are shooting people in the street, though. My friend's old home is on the Lebanon/Israeli border. He went back and went down to the sea where the border fence comes into view. He was shot at by Israeli soldiers.

I had a friend in one of my classes who went to Israel to do aid work for an NGO. He personally witnessed IDF shooting kids.

Like I said, both sides committ atrocities. We shouldn't be supporting either sides.

[Saipan]

No they're not strapping explosives to their kids, but dropping bombs on known hospitals, using white phosphorus, the policy of demolishing entire apartment blocks where one person purpotrated an attack are pretty bad in their own right.

Whereever attack comes from is attackecd back. Why are palestinian fighters hiding behind women and children?

[nicky10013]

Whereever attack comes from is attackecd back. Why are palestinian fighters hiding behind women and children?

Notice how you ignored the rest of my post.

[PIK]

Last I saw the Conservatives are the ones talking about increasing healthcare transfers after the Liberals cut them to something like 12% from 30%.

Yeah, that would be the Conservatives, who brought us the new improved $55 billion deficit. I rather doubt they'll be restoring much of anything any time soon. They've already spent everything we have- accomplished that before there was a cloud on the economic horizon.

Wizards. They can make balanced budgets disappear.

Just like the libs did , stole the money from EI ,we have to pay that now, the PS pension fund, that to will bite us in the future. And when you spend everything on the mortgage, like Jean did, and when the is paid off you have to re mortgage, to do the repairs, and the actioon plan is fixing that up right now.

[PIK]

It doesn't matter whether Canadians know about Ignatieff's comments. All that does matter is that the majority of the UN delegations didn't know before they voted and that leads either to the Conservative's incompetence in trying for a seat on the UNSC, or a deliberate souring of relations with not only the UN but with Arab states. That is enough to suggest that Canada is incapable of representing the world in determination of fairness.

But if you want to get into it, the Conservative government's record on human rights, and undemocratic actions added enough fuel to suggest that Harper is out of touch with the rest of the world. And lastly adding to the fact that he pissed off the UAE he is not a world renowned diplomat worthy of such a seat.

In your simplistic way you diminish the Conservatives ability to negotiate for a fair and reasonable solution to the UAE's request for greater air access in Canada. Of course the banishment from UAE airspace was a 'last straw' attempt at trying to get a reasonable compromise. But it does show that the Conservatives ignored the UAE and now Canadians are suffering the consequences for that.

The facts state that the UAE wanted the most prophitable flights that belong to air canada, we don't need to screw one to give to the other. Thank god harper bought the C-17's, or this would have really nailed us ahrd ,but with the C-17 gives us alot more options, maybe that is why UAE just blinked.

[jefferiah]

Losing the vote seems like a compliment to me.

[madmax]

Well, should Canada get a seat on the council and if not why not - well maybe we are not anti Israeli enough for the U.N.

Possible because Conservatives say stupid sht like u just did above.

[ToadBrother]

Israel did have something to do with it. I've always said that being so pro-Israeli is a bad thing because it destroys Canada's reputation as an honest broker. It's also just wrong due to the way Israel operates, just like we shouldn't support Palestine because of the way they operate as well.

And who exactly are we distancing ourselves from by maintaining our good relations with Israel? Wow, I'm really concerned about what Syria and Iran think, don't want to look bad in their eyes.

The reason we support Israel is because they're the only good, sure ally we have in the region. Even the US gets irritated with them, but the alternative is what, exactly? It's not like there are a heap load of democracies in the area, and even places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, while friendly enough, are a coupe away from being transformed. If we let Israel fail, just to be "honest brokers" than we abandon one of the very few true democracies in the regions, and to what, save face with a bunch of dictators and fanatics?

[ToadBrother]

No they're not strapping explosives to their kids, but dropping bombs on known hospitals, using white phosphorus, the policy of demolishing entire apartment blocks where one person purpotrated an attack are pretty bad in their own right.

That's ludicrous. Hamas and that ilk deliberately launch attacks from these kinds of places, precisely because they know the bleeding hearts will go "Oh my, that evil Israel, blowing up hospitals!"

I'll tell you something, if my neighbor was continually launching rockets at me from the top of his kids' treehouse, I wouldn't be aiming my own strike at his septic tank.

[bloodyminded]

That's ludicrous. Hamas and that ilk deliberately launch attacks from these kinds of places, precisely because they know the bleeding hearts will go "Oh my, that evil Israel, blowing up hospitals!"

I'll tell you something, if my neighbor was continually launching rockets at me from the top of his kids' treehouse, I wouldn't be aiming my own strike at his septic tank.

Israel's every strike is not some just retaliation against aggression, TB. That's absurd on its face.

[scribblet]

That's ludicrous. Hamas and that ilk deliberately launch attacks from these kinds of places, precisely because they know the bleeding hearts will go "Oh my, that evil Israel, blowing up hospitals!"

I'll tell you something, if my neighbor was continually launching rockets at me from the top of his kids' treehouse, I wouldn't be aiming my own strike at his septic tank.

Exactly !!

The Security Council doesn’t deserve Canada, but will now be used as political opportunism by the person who sure helped slip the wedge in.. Ignatieff, how very Un Canadian

[DrGreenthumb]

What I find funny is Conservatives bashing the muslim countries for being theocratic states or religious fundamentalists, when that is exactlty the vision the HarperCons have for Canada the only difference being that they want a different name-brand of religious fundamentalism. Read The Armageddon Factor. Lots of these nuts including many CPC MP's are rapturists who believe that returning all the jews to their biblical homeland will help to fullfill biblical prophecy and hasten the "end-times". They are not concerned about the suffering of humanity in general because their "true believers " will be whisked away to heaven before the suffering begins. The Conservatives and their religious right nutjob followers want to make Canada a "Christian state" with a biblicly inpired set of laws.

Edited October 13, 2010 by DrGreenthumb