Israel clears... Israel

[KeyStone]

If peace is what you want it's necessary to have parties who have authority to negotiate.

Israel has been playing that game for awhile now. If the people they talk to don't have the power to stop all attacks on Israel, then they aren't worth talking to. Of course, if they do have the power, then they must be terrorists, so Israel won't talk to them. There will ALWAYS be attacks against Israel. There will always be extremists filled with hate, because their children have been killed or they hate Jews or whatever. You can not blame all Palestinians for an action of a few and allow a few actions to setback the peace process.

Basically that's how it works. If war is fought between competing armies (think Battle of the Bulge or other WW II battles) civilians are a lot more likely to be spared than if war is fought by people who are dressed in civilian clothes, fight from civilian areas and melt into civilian populations.

That depends entirely on how civilized the nation is that is attempting to play by the rules. A civilized nation differentiates between terrorist and civilian. A terrorist does not allow a great deal of collateral damage and then blame it on the terrorists for not making it easy to find and kill them. The problem that most Israeli apologists have is that they are unable to differentiate between civilian and terrorist. They simply see them as all Arabs. So, when they kill Arabs because Arabs fired missiles at them, it was the Arabs fault.

Fighting cowardly terrorists asymetrical warriors, you're implying, must result in loss to civilized countries?

I am asking you to suggest how else Palestinians could fight against the IDF child-killers?

You seem to be offering two options:

1) Accept whatever Terms Israel gives you as they are superior.

2) March in nice neat lines with uniforms and flashing neon lights, so the billion dollar warplanes can disintegrate you.

The goal of the militants is to get Israel to regret the poor treatment of the Palestinian people.

How do you expect them to do that?

So you're saying inferior military capacity gives a right to murder at random?

I am saying that vastly inferior military capacity, combined with unjust conditions, and a complete lack of ability to make changes through non-violence will ulimately lead to civilian casualties. If you want to call it murder, then let's call all the deaths of civilians murder, so that our language is consistent.

Would you want the U.N. to run around "investigating" conditions in Nunavut?

If the Canadian government treated the Inuit people so poorly that nations of the world suggested that the international body investigate their living conditions, then I would absolutely welcome the UN investigation. But then Canada is a nation with nothing to hide.

So you're saying civilized countries need to tolerate revolutions?

If you read it says peaceful revolution. A revolution is nothing more than a sweeping change. Yes, all civilized oountries must allow a mechanism for peaceful revolution. The Palestinians have none, making violence inevitable.

[DogOnPorch]

Ummmm... that was about 25 years after the trouble started. But even if that was true it wouldnt support your silly assertion.

Before 1919, the Ottoman Turks controled the area of which al-Husseini was a member and an officer in the Turkish artillery. During the reign of the Ottomans the Jews in the Levant were tolerated and valued. See: Romaniotes, for example.

The simple reason youre yelping out "NAZI!, NAZI!" in a thread about Israel investigating itself is this...

Not when dealing with actual Nazis like the Grand Mufti al-Husseini. Your denial re: his involvement in the workings of the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust is most interesting.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Not when dealing with actual Nazis like the Grand Mufti al-Husseini. Your denial re: his involvement in the workings of the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust is most interesting.

As is your harsh exaggeration of his involvement.

Edited October 30, 2010 by TrueMetis

[DogOnPorch]

As is your harsh exaggeration of his involvement.

Oh really? Well why don't you give me the real story behind the Grand Mufti.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Oh really? Well why don't you give me the real story behind the Grand Mufti.

He managed to help put together part of one division, you seem to think he put together multiple alone. Even though there was only one division made up of Arabs, there where others containing Arabs but none of them large enough to constitute an actual division and the Mufti had nothing, or very little, to do with those.

Edited October 30, 2010 by TrueMetis

[dre]

Before 1919, the Ottoman Turks controled the area of which al-Husseini was a member and an officer in the Turkish artillery. During the reign of the Ottomans the Jews in the Levant were tolerated and valued. See: Romaniotes, for example.

Not when dealing with actual Nazis like the Grand Mufti al-Husseini. Your denial re: his involvement in the workings of the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust is most interesting.

Before 1919, the Ottoman Turks controled the area of which al-Husseini was a member and an officer in the Turkish artillery. During the reign of the Ottomans the Jews in the Levant were tolerated and valued. See: Romaniotes, for example.

Tensions started as soon as zionist ideology resulted in increase migration after 1880. The two sides had already been at each other throats for almost 60 years before WW2.

Your denial re: his involvement in the workings of the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust is most interesting.

The most interesting thing about it is that it doesnt exist... I never denied that he was involved Nazis. I said that involvment doesnt support your silly assertion that Palestinian resistance to the occupation is some kind of Nazi movement. Go ahead... show me where I denied his involvement with Nazis. Or just admit you flat out lied about that and made it up.

[DogOnPorch]

He managed to help put together part of one division, you seem to think he put together multiple alone. Even though there was only one division made up of Arabs, there where others containing Arabs but none of them large enough to constitute an actual division and the Mufti had nothing, or very little, to do with those.

There were no Arab units in Yugoslavia. The Mufti formed the 13th SS which was all Bosnian Muslims with German officers. Other divisons he recruited for were the 369th, 373rd and 392nd divisions (not their proto-regiments) the 21st SS Skanderbeg and the 23rd SS Mountain which ended up being absorbed into the 13th SS. As mentioned, these units were anti-partisan and were formed to deal with the likes of Tito.

[Guest TrueMetis]

When did I mention Yugoslavia?

[GostHacked]

So lets try this.

Half here support the Palestinians and their struggle.

Half here support Israel and their struggle.

Both sides and their supporters use the UN and cite international law when it suits them.

Both sides engage in propaganda to drum up support for their cause.

Both sides engage in stuff we don't even hear about.

Supporters on both sides only think that the group they support is correct.

Either we use UN/International Law for every cause when it comes to this conflict or we don't use it at all. There is so much nitpicking of what law and when it was broken, it's hard to really see what laws are actually broken. \

It;s obvuious in these threads that there are some reasonable poeple discussing it. And it's also blaringly obvious that there are people who just post for the sake of posting. One liner's that are repeated over and over again.

We are not involved in the conflict directly in any way, and yet we are just as divided over this conflict as the ones who are involved in the conflict.

Palestinians need to stop the rockets.

Israel needs to stop the settlements.

Some compromises need to be made on both sides, but it is obvious that the two parties involved no longer see a solution to the conflict, so on and on it goes. I guess in the way people post and the way information is presented, we here are not helping the situation by essentially carrying on the same debate and conflict online. For all I see, the two are looking to be the same, and not helping at all.

We need solutions. Real solid well thought out solutions. You can smack all these Israel-Palestine threads into one, and the content would stay the same.

We can't seem to agree on a solution, so I am not really hopefull that they will be able to.

[DogOnPorch]

Tensions started as soon as zionist ideology resulted in increase migration after 1880. The two sides had already been at each other throats for almost 60 years before WW2.

The most interesting thing about it is that it doesnt exist... I never denied that he was involved Nazis. I said that involvment doesnt support your silly assertion that Palestinian resistance to the occupation is some kind of Nazi movement. Go ahead... show me where I denied his involvement with Nazis. Or just admit you flat out lied about that and made it up.

It was the Mufti's personal movement, the Palestinian movement. His form of Zionism. Transjordan and Iraq were 'given' to the Mufti's rivals, the Hashemites, by the Allies. The Mufti sought to elevate his clan to the protectors of al-Quds and had he accepted the 1947 Partition, he might have eventually done that. The PLO/Fatah followed...which were followed by Hamas and their ilk. That you wish to separate these elements and put them in their own little isolated historical boxes is typical of apologists.

You're also free to post some info on Arab pogroms before and during WW1. I'm not aware of any, but you seem to have some material I haven't been privy to.

Edited October 30, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

When did I mention Yugoslavia?

You didn't; but that's where the Mufti's 'Legion' operated. Not in North Africa or Russia.

Edited October 30, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[dre]

So lets try this.

Half here support the Palestinians and their struggle.

Half here support Israel and their struggle.

Both sides and their supporters use the UN and cite international law when it suits them.

Both sides engage in propaganda to drum up support for their cause.

Both sides engage in stuff we don't even hear about.

Supporters on both sides only think that the group they support is correct.

Either we use UN/International Law for every cause when it comes to this conflict or we don't use it at all. There is so much nitpicking of what law and when it was broken, it's hard to really see what laws are actually broken. \

It;s obvuious in these threads that there are some reasonable poeple discussing it. And it's also blaringly obvious that there are people who just post for the sake of posting. One liner's that are repeated over and over again.

We are not involved in the conflict directly in any way, and yet we are just as divided over this conflict as the ones who are involved in the conflict.

Palestinians need to stop the rockets.

Israel needs to stop the settlements.

Some compromises need to be made on both sides, but it is obvious that the two parties involved no longer see a solution to the conflict, so on and on it goes. I guess in the way people post and the way information is presented, we here are not helping the situation by essentially carrying on the same debate and conflict online. For all I see, the two are looking to be the same, and not helping at all.

We need solutions. Real solid well thought out solutions. You can smack all these Israel-Palestine threads into one, and the content would stay the same.

We can't seem to agree on a solution, so I am not really hopefull that they will be able to.

We need solutions. Real solid well thought out solutions. You can smack all these Israel-Palestine threads into one, and the content would stay the same.

The only way the west can play a part at this point is by address some of the real tangible issues. At this point theres so much water under the bridge and people on both sides have so many good reasons to hate the other side that we arent going to be able to talk people out of that. Its useless to try.

What we CAN do though is try to solve some of the real issues... one of the major reasons that has gone on for so long is because Israel relies so heavily on water from the occupied territories to feed its people and power its economy. As long as 30% of their fresh water comes from the aquifiers in the west bank Israel can never give up control... its a total non starter, which of course makes a two state solution impossible. No country on earth would voluntary give up 1/3 of their fresh water never mind one in the increasingly dry middle east. Thats example of something we can fix... its a technological challenge that can be address by spending lots of money on things like desalination. We could help both sides in this regard. The west could subsidize desalination plants in Israel in exchange for Israel easing water restrictions in the west bank, which would allow palestinians to use their own water so that they can start with the basics and at least build a modest agrarian economy.

The west has failed to be an effective mediator and we should stop trying, and instead just offer technical and financial assistance in return for small incremental actions by both sides. The leadership on both sides has shown very little willingness to do anything conducive to peace... weve urged them... practical begged them, and they basically just pay lip service to us and go on with doing the same things they have been doing. What we can do is try to flat out bribe them... offer to pay each side gigantic sums of money to do the things we think will help pave the way for peace. For example... when we ask Israel to stop building illegal settlements they basically tell us to go fuck ourselves. What about if we PAY them ten billion dollars a year to not build any more settlements? Everyone has their price...

This approach is basically how we had a little bit of success with Egypt and Israel. The US paid both sides astronomic sums of money to act civilized. Sorta of similar to how they paid terrorists in Iraq to stop killing each other and US troops.

[bloodyminded]

Ah, sorry...I meant to say 'the evil Zionist Entity' rather than brush all with one stroke. They're the ones controling the media and Washington DC. Right? Three billion a year and yayo like that? US weapons...US support...US whatever? I'll try to remember you don't have it in for all Jews.

It's interesting that an oily anti-semite like yourself will so promiscuously accuse others of what you're personally guilty of.

[DogOnPorch]

It's interesting that an oily anti-semite like yourself will so promiscuously accuse others of what you're personally guilty of.

Dr. Evil: Hang on Mini-Me! If anything should happen to you I don't know what I would do.

[pauses]

Dr. Evil: I'd probably move on, get another replica but there would be a 10 minute period there where I would just be inconsolable.

[dre]

This approach is basically how we had a little bit of success with Egypt and Israel. The US paid both sides astronomic sums of money to act civilized. Sorta of similar to how they paid terrorists in Iraq to stop killing each other and US troops.

The more I think about this, the more evident it becomes that this is pretty much the only chance we have of helping to resolve "Conflict: Dirt farm".

I mean, we have been asking these people to act civilized towards one another for decades and time after time we have been told to go piss up a rope.

Lets remove all ongoing western aid to both sides, and then essentially give jews and arabs a lucrative contract to act civilized to each other. Offer them insane ammounts of money to not be dicks to each other.

For example... instead of asking Israel to halt illegal settlment building you pay them to do it.

"For each year that goes buy where a settlement is not built we will pay you 10 billion dollars". For each illegal settlement you dismantle we will pay you a billion dollars."

"We'll install 50 billion dollars worth of desalination plants if you start turning over the control of water resources in the west bank over to palestinians so that they can grow food."

And instead of asking the Palestinian authority to prevent violence and rocket attacks...

"Well give you a billion dollars for each month that goes by without attacks against jews on Israel proper, or other infringements on the security of Israels legally recognized borders."

"And well give the PA another 5 billion dollars if they write full recognition of Israels right to exist into their charter, and another billion dollars per year that they keep it there."

Like we saw with insurgents in Iraq... even people acting out of hatred and religiously motivated violence will behave if you pay them enough. Its the same strategy that worked with Israel and Egypt.

The problem of course is that it gets expensive, and you have to keep paying pretty much forever to keep the parties in the desired mode of behavior. But on the other hand those idiots and their pathetic struggle already cost us untold billions, and risk dragging us into a greater regional conflict that would cost the west hundreds of billions or even trillions. So we would probably save money!

The beauty of this is that once we essentially become benefactors that finance a much improved standard of life for the people on both sides, we basically become their employers, and we can keep those hopeless idiots OUT of any planning. All that would be required is for western nations to sit down together and come up with a list of behaviors that would be conducive to peace, and figure out how much of a bounty we are willing to pay for each one.

[bush_cheney2004]

....This approach is basically how we had a little bit of success with Egypt and Israel. The US paid both sides astronomic sums of money to act civilized. Sorta of similar to how they paid terrorists in Iraq to stop killing each other and US troops.

What do you mean by "we" in this context? What has been Canada's contribution to such payola over the past 30 years? Or do you just mean and assume that the USA should pay to resolve a conflict that is not in Canada's wheelhouse.

[dre]

What do you mean by "we" in this context? What has been Canada's contribution to such payola over the past 30 years? Or do you just mean and assume that the USA should pay to resolve a conflict that is not in Canada's wheelhouse.

What do you mean by "we" in this context?

Countries interested in ending the conflict, and sick of wasting their time on it... decade after decade after decade. G8 nations would be a good start I guess.

What has been Canada's contribution to such payola over the past 30 years?

Im not sure what the totals are but I know its hundreds of millions, or billions. And I would support paying a lot more if it was a regime like the one I described where they only get paid for results.

Or do you just mean and assume that the USA should pay to resolve a conflict that is not in Canada's wheelhouse.

No, the US obviously has a large interest in not allowed "Conflict: DirtFarm" to entanble them in a regional conflict that would cost the US hundreds of billions or more. But other countries have a significant stake in ending the conflict as well. Those idiots over there waste an awfull lot of the worlds time and money, and they will go on doing it for centuries if we dont figure something out.

And the US is already financing peace between Israel and Egypt to the tune of billions of dollars a year, so the rest of the west should step up and get out their checkbooks.

[bush_cheney2004]

Im not sure what the totals are but I know its hundreds of millions, or billions. And I would support paying a lot more if it was a regime like the one I described where they only get paid for results.

That sounds about right, but surely you know that is a drop in the bucket compared to American payola. Canada has no primary policy interest in the conflict, and only recently has Ottawa openly favored Israel.

No, the US obviously has a large interest in not allowed "Conflict: DirtFarm" to entanble them in a regional conflict that would cost the US hundreds of billions or more. But other countries have a significant stake in ending the conflict as well. Those idiots over there waste an awfull lot of the worlds time and money, and they will go on doing it for centuries if we dont figure something out.

This is rather vague....the interminable conflict is not going to be ended just to let Canadians (or Americans) sleep better at night. All of the teeth gnashing and jockeying for position is largely irrelevant.

And the US is already financing peace between Israel and Egypt to the tune of billions of dollars a year, so the rest of the west should step up and get out their checkbooks.

But they won't....they may want peace....but they want somebody else to pay for it.

[jbg]

 

On 10/20/2010 at 10:54 PM, jbg said:

On 10/20/2010 at 11:07 PM, bud said:

there you go again with your auto zionist bot response which makes no sense.

how is not attacking an aid ship and killing 9 civilians, a suicide pack?

how is removing the settlements a suicide pack?

think before you type.

I am a Zionist, and quite proudly. Israel has built a land that gives Arabs more rights than any where in the Middle East. The right to vote and sit in the Knesset. And if you're a gay Arab the right to live. If you're female, the right to legal protection against being "honor killed".

Speaking of "think(ing) before (I) type" your use of the term "suicide pack" is a Freudian slip which would be hilarious if the results of the use of the real "suicide packs", or knapsacks or belts filled with explosives weren't so senseless and tragic. The deployers of children, teens and immature adults with these "suicide packs" are cowards who believe in cutting short the lives of brides chatting with their fathers at cafes.

Your views are revolting and despicable.

I found this gem when looking for something else.

It seems that the Arabs are now seeking unliateral delegimitzation of Israel in the international community, since they didn't enjoy Israel's responses to the continuing atrocities. If the Arabs really want most of their territory back they have it for the asking; by negotiating in good faith. They basically want the Jews gone from the Middle East.

[-TSS-]

I wonder how much more can Israel grow in terms of population; after all, it is a very tiny strip of land. Most European countries have larger counties than the size of the state of Israel.

On top of that despite their area being tiny still about 1/3 of it is largely uninhabitable desert. Therefore the areas where people actually live are very densely populated.

The current population of Israel is over 8 millon people.

[hot enough]

On 10/18/2010 at 0:46 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

You mean like Canada (Somalia) and the USA (My Lai)?

Yes, like Canada [Somalia] and the USA [My LaiS massacres which can stand as reminders for the myriad other My Lai type massacres in myriad countries around the world]

[hot enough]

On 10/30/2010 at 1:15 AM, DogOnPorch said:

Not when dealing with actual Nazis like the Grand Mufti al-Husseini. Your denial re: his involvement in the workings of the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust is most interesting.

As is the Catholic Church's involvement in the workings of the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust. 

And the USA's, and who knows who else's involvement in the workings of the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust.

[drummindiver]

On Wednesday, October 20, 2010 at 8:20 PM, bud said:

i hate to break it to you, israel and north korea, but not 'anything' goes when it comes to sovereignty. there is something called international law, which actually helped create the state of israel. putting aside human compassion, israel, just like almost all other countries are signatories to international law and they have a responsibility to follow it.

At least you admit their right of existence.