Wellesley, Massachusetts Public School Students Learn to Pray to Allah

dre · September 17, 2010

Of course you don't think it's from any one religion. You'd have to use your brain, and open your eyes to reality. And that would mean you'd have to *gasp* judge. And your leftwing, politically correct, white guilted mind would explode.

Youre illustrating exactly what Im talking about. Youre really just doing the same thing that the conservative hardliners on the OTHER side are doing. Pointing fingers, spreading animosity. Its important that moderates in the east and west respectively dont listen to people like you, that would actually like to ESCALATE the culture between east/west, islam/christianity. Attempts by people like you to characterize Islam and its billion members as an evil cartoon character with a suicide vest must be vigorously opposed and debunked. And the same thing goes on the other with attempts by THEIR hardliners to characterize the west as conquering crusaders.

Michael Hardner · September 17, 2010

Yup, its just a little bit more important now. We face a real danger I think not from any one religion but from the hardliners on their side and the hardliners on our side goading everyone else into a never ending culture war or worse. If theres a knowledge vacuum then its really easy for those guys to manipulate that and fill it with their bullshit.

You could guard against this using education maybe...

I don't know that we need to change how we're dealing with the culture clash, for lack of a better word. I think we're probably doing as best as we can.

And as a right-winger taught me a long time ago, really a good economy is the best salve against xenophobia.

Jack Weber · September 18, 2010

I don't know that we need to change how we're dealing with the culture clash, for lack of a better word. I think we're probably doing as best as we can.

And as a right-winger taught me a long time ago, really a good economy is the best salve against xenophobia.

Well,the neoliberals effed that up pretty good,as well...

BubberMiley · September 18, 2010

Religion doesn't belong in public schools at all, and whoever is responsible should be fired.

Smallc · September 18, 2010

Religion doesn't belong in public schools at all, and whoever is responsible should be fired.

There's nothing wrong with learning about diversity of religion.

Shady · September 18, 2010

There's nothing wrong with learning about diversity of religion.

There's a fine line between learning and proselytizing. The incident in question seemed to go over the line, in my opinion. Learning why and how somebody prays. Fine. Actually saying and participating in said prayers. Not fine.

September 18, 2010

Sounds just like a synagogue to me....

Just wondering if the segregation of men and women in some synagogues is supposed to somehow vouch for the practice? Seems to me rather than saying, 'oh, that's ok then,' one's reaction would be 'that's no better.' There is a difference, though, in that the men are being treated the same as the women in these synagogues; the sitting on separate sides applies equally to both sexes, so they are still being treated equally. Women aren't made to leave so the men can worship or pray. Women aren't being forced into a different facility. Women aren't being forced to enter through a back door the way they sometimes are in mosques.

At any rate, I criticize any inequality in any religion, and I just don't see public schools as the appropriate setting to be hearing "You have to believe in Allah, and Allah is the one God, the only one worthy of worship, all forgiving, all merciful." Or God, for that matter. Kids are impressionable, and it's one thing to learn "Muslims believe in Allah" while it's quite another to hear "You have to believe in Allah(God/whatever)."

Edited September 18, 2010 by American Woman

Smallc · September 18, 2010

There's a fine line between learning and proselytizing. The incident in question seemed to go over the line, in my opinion. Learning why and how somebody prays. Fine. Actually saying and participating in said prayers. Not fine.

I disagree. Isn't it Conservatives who are always talking about the value of experience?

Shady · September 18, 2010

I disagree. Isn't it Conservatives who are always talking about the value of experience?

Huh?

Smallc · September 18, 2010

Huh?

To take part in something is to understand it better. In the area where I live, people, as part of education, learn about and take part in aboriginal rituals. Knowledge and experience aren't negative things.

msj · September 18, 2010

To take part in something is to understand it better.

Exactly.

This is why, when it comes to crime, the difference between a liberal and a conservative is that a liberal is someone who has not been mugged yet and a conservative is someone who has not been arrested yet.

bloodyminded · September 18, 2010

To take part in something is to understand it better. In the area where I live, people, as part of education, learn about and take part in aboriginal rituals. Knowledge and experience aren't negative things.

Yes.

Because, as we can see, people take the "Big Three," the major monotheisms, seriously. With a type of respect.

They don't take aboriginal spirituality seriously...there is no respect...so it's not an issue.

You've just beautifully raised another issue. (Just what we fucking need. )

Machjo · September 18, 2010

This is pretty bizarre. Especially considering this is a public school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7-I9Qp3d4Y&feature=player_embedded#!

I found the most troubling part of the video to be when they seperated the female students from the male students. So that the male students could participate in the afternoon prayers. Seriously, what the hell is going on?

I'd say that was out of order. I'm not against a school taking children to any faith community for the value of the educational experience per se, as long as:

1. There is a clearly defined learning objective that could not be taught equally well in the classroom alone,

2. They are taken to a legal establishment,

3. Children not be required to participate unless requested to do so by their parents, and even be prohibited from participating without explicit parental consent. The most that should be allowed without parental consent is that they observe and no more. Yet seeing that it's likely off-campus, getting parental approval for a field trip might still be appropriate there too.

Indeed that outing was botched, unless of course all the above was in fact implemented.

Machjo · September 18, 2010

In fact, just to ensure neutrality, it might even be preferable to simply take the children to a World Religion Day event where many religious communities are present to each present their faiths together.

kimmy · September 18, 2010

I disagree, I think that being herded away from the boys and excluded was probably tremendously educational for those girls. Eye-opening.

-k

Machjo · September 18, 2010

I disagree, I think that being herded away from the boys and excluded was probably tremendously educational for those girls. Eye-opening.

-k

Separating the boys from the girls may have been a valuable lesson of how that Muslim community operated. Inviting the boys to participate in prayer was not out of line in itself, but I do believe that if those boys were under the legal age to be legally independent, then parental consent should also have been required to have those boys participate.

Also, seeing that Islam is actually defined not by the behaviour of Muslims but rather by the text of the Qur'an and Ahadith, if the purpose was to teach about Islam itself, then teaching the contents of the Qur'an and Ahadith would have made ore sense. However, if the purpose was not so much to teach about Is;am but rather about the local Muslim community, then yes it would make more sense to visit the mosque. In the end, it really depends on what the learning objective was.

Shady · September 18, 2010

To take part in something is to understand it better.

I see. So using your logic, students should also participate in sexual acts, and participate in using drugs and alcohol to "understand it better." Come'on guy, grab a brain for God's sake. :rolleyes:

Students can learn about religions, as well as other things without having to actually participate in them directly. I wouldn't expect students to have to take part in communion, or confession when learning about Christianity.

I'm pretty sure we teach kids about WWI and WWII without sending them into battle. :rolleyes:

Edited September 18, 2010 by Shady

Smallc · September 18, 2010

I see. So using your logic, students should also participate in sexual acts, and participate in using drugs and alcohol to "understand it better."

Most of that would be illegal.....but I assure you that most of them will take part in those things anyway.

Come'on guy, grab a brain for God's sake.

Students can learn about religions, as well as other things without having to actually participate in them directly. I wouldn't expect students to have to take part in communion, or confession when learning about Christianity.

I would say that praying is a bit different from Communion.

I'm pretty sure we teach kids about WWI and WWII without sending them into battle.

And maybe someday, we'll actually have the technology to 'send' them into the battle.

Machjo · September 19, 2010

I see. So using your logic, students should also participate in sexual acts, and participate in using drugs and alcohol to "understand it better." Come'on guy, grab a brain for God's sake.

Students can learn about religions, as well as other things without having to actually participate in them directly. I wouldn't expect students to have to take part in communion, or confession when learning about Christianity.

I'm pretty sure we teach kids about WWI and WWII without sending them into battle.

I actually agree with this to a degree. A Bible or a Qur'an can fit nicely into a child's book bag. No need for a field trip.

Also, depending on the church or mosque attended, it could potentially give a false or distorted view of the religion. By actually reading the sacred texts of the religion, they're more likely to know what the religion really teaches independently of the actions of its followers.

Literature can give some insight too. The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, not only gives a balanced account of Islam and the Christian faith, but also stands as a literary masterpiece of the English language in its own right.

OK, to be fair, Gibbon, a Deist, is somewhat biased against organized or revealed religions, including both the Christian and Muslim Faiths. That said, he is at least honest about his biases in his book, and also still gives credit where credit is due, to the extent that even Muslims and Christians, though they may disagree with his views, can still agree on the factual content of his book none the less.

Machjo · September 19, 2010

To take part in something is to understand it better. In the area where I live, people, as part of education, learn about and take part in aboriginal rituals. Knowledge and experience aren't negative things.

I have to disagree. Observing and participating are two different things. If I'm invited to a Christian, Muslim or any other service whereby I'm free to simply observe without feeling forced to participate, I'll feel quite comfortable and will participate on my own terms, and will appreciate the freedom granted me. By the way, I have in fact observed Muslim Friday prayer, and was quite free to do so without any pressure to participate. I've also attended Catholic masses where I'd felt quite uncomfortable owing to everyone rising and sitting and reciting on command, making me stand out like a sore thumb in the crowd.

When I'd attended the Friday prayer, one gentleman was kind enough to ask me whether I would participate, and when I said I wasn't ed to just observe, he'd proposed I stand near the back. This way, I did not feel out of place to simply stand and observe. When I was invited to most Christian services, my hosts took me to the back, again to ensure no awkward moment. Whenever I'd been invited to a catholic mass, I'd be taken to sit down among the crowd, making it quite conspicuous when I did not participate, along with odd looks about me. Needless to say I'm less likely to accept an invitation to a Catholic mass as a result.

Surprisingly enough, I was raised Catholic and even did my Confirmation, admittedly under pressure owing to my attending Catholic school. But since I don't believe in it, i don't feel comfortable participating in it. And while any church is free to invite me or reject me, should it invite me it should take it upon itself as a good host to ensure before mass, if it's aware I'm not a believer of course, to council me, to inform me of what to expect and advise that if I won't participate, that I might wish to sit at the back.

Machjo · September 19, 2010

There's a fine line between learning and proselytizing. The incident in question seemed to go over the line, in my opinion. Learning why and how somebody prays. Fine. Actually saying and participating in said prayers. Not fine.

Unless of course the student has reached the legal age of maturity or has been granted the freedom to participate by his legal guardian, which does not appear to be the case in this video mind you.

Machjo · September 19, 2010

I never had an option that was quite like that. There was a "bible studies" class but it was Jesus-based.

This I tend to disagree with. Teaching the Bible as literature, meaning that literary criticism will apply to it like any secular literature, means that students are taught to read the Bible for themselves and understand it for themselves. After all, there can be multiple understandings of the same book. The same ought to apply to Qur'an studies or any other study of any religious text It ought to be studied as literature along with all that entails.

Smallc · September 19, 2010

That's fine....but the students weren't forced to participate.

Machjo · September 19, 2010

That's fine....but the students weren't forced to participate.

But:

1. Had they reached the legal age of maturity? and,

2. If they were still legally dependent, did they have parental consent to participate, regardless of their willingness to do so?

As a parent, I'm quite open to my children exploring other religions, and would grant them the freedom to participate of their own free will should they feel comfortable doing to. That said, I also recognize that they might not feel comfortable, and so I would want assurances that they would not be forced to participate against their will, and also recognize that not all parents would feel so comfortable.

punked · September 19, 2010

But:

1. Had they reached the legal age of maturity? and,

2. If they were still legally dependent, did they have parental consent to participate, regardless of their willingness to do so?

As a parent, I'm quite open to my children exploring other religions, and would grant them the freedom to participate of their own free will should they feel comfortable doing to. That said, I also recognize that they might not feel comfortable, and so I would want assurances that they would not be forced to participate against their will, and also recognize that not all parents would feel so comfortable.

I don`t know what was on the permission slip the parents signed?