Under what circumstances should the veil be banned in public?

[Argus]

You can wear a burqa all you want just so long as you don't expect me to talk to you or treat you as human.

[ToadBrother]

It is not racist,that is what the left likes to say,but really it is abuse.Do you think that muslim women wearing a burka in 100f weather is doing it because she wants to, no because she will probably get a beating the minute she got home. A beating in canada for not wearling a burka, real nice.

What about women who wear high heels, or stick prosthetics in their breasts? People do all sorts of bizarre and sometimes outrageous things for fashion. I'm not saying that there aren't cases like the hypothetical you've laid out, but if we're going to start banning clothing or fashion based upon harm that it can do, then you might find the list a lot longer.

These bans, to my mind, are the wrong way to go. Not only do they seem to defy basic notions of personal liberty, they seem motivated purely by prejudice. A free society has to accept that people will do these sorts of things and tolerate it, even if it does not approve. That is the price of freedom.

[WIP]

New poll question: Under what circumstances does this board need two threads obsessed with banning burqas?

In Europe, where this is the hot story, the reporting sidesteps issues of racism that have always been pervasive in European thinking. Most European nations no longer have any idea what it means to be English, German, French or Spanish; but rather than let the old nationalisms fade away, they are trying to redefine them. Politically correct forces that try to claim that foreigners, especially foreigners with different religions, can take part in their nationalism aren't fooling anyone, except themselves perhaps! A recent poll of 12 EU countries, shows majorities in all in favour of banning burqas in schools and other places, yet between 50 and 80% insist that crucifixes, and other Christian religious symbols be allowed. There's no way to square that circle without admitting favouring one religion over another.

Over here, we are more affected by the growing Islamophobia, which is wafting over our borders from U.S. rightwing squawkers. The paranoia on the right is worse than it was during the months after 9/11. I suspect that economic uncertainty and lack of confidence in "regime change" is part of it.

[Jack Weber]

New poll question: Under what circumstances does this board need two threads obsessed with banning burqas?

In Europe, where this is the hot story, the reporting sidesteps issues of racism that have always been pervasive in European thinking. Most European nations no longer have any idea what it means to be English, German, French or Spanish; but rather than let the old nationalisms fade away, they are trying to redefine them. Politically correct forces that try to claim that foreigners, especially foreigners with different religions, can take part in their nationalism aren't fooling anyone, except themselves perhaps! A recent poll of 12 EU countries, shows majorities in all in favour of banning burqas in schools and other places, yet between 50 and 80% insist that crucifixes, and other Christian religious symbols be allowed. There's no way to square that circle without admitting favouring one religion over another.

Over here, we are more affected by the growing Islamophobia, which is wafting over our borders from U.S. rightwing squawkers. The paranoia on the right is worse than it was during the months after 9/11. I suspect that economic uncertainty and lack of confidence in "regime change" is part of it.

Islamophobia...

That's right out of the rabble playbook...Islamofascism is the cause of most of problems in the Middle East,and increasingly,in other area's that are not predisposed to the Islamic faith.Rememeber,the Islamofascists don't even like certain Muslims who don't act "Muslim enough" in their eyes.

As far as the Europe business goes...

Has it ever occured to a cultural relativist like yourself that Islam,and its' cultural machinations,might be at odds with AND seen as a cultural imposition?

[ToadBrother]

Islamophobia...

That's right out of the rabble playbook...Islamofascism is the cause of most of problems in the Middle East,and increasingly,in other area's that are not predisposed to the Islamic faith.Rememeber,the Islamofascists don't even like certain Muslims who don't act "Muslim enough" in their eyes.

The cause of most of the problems in the Islamic world are bad economies, inept strongmen political regimes, all of which lead to wide-spread underemployment, a restive class, particularly of young men. The Islamists prey on such people, but they did not create them, the Assads and Musbaraks, and yes, even the House of Saud, all create these conditions. You'll also note that the extreme Islamists are often the most attacked group in the Middle East by their own governments, so your explanation doesn't even seem particularly real anyways.

As far as the Europe business goes...

Has it ever occured to a cultural relativist like yourself that Islam,and its' cultural machinations,might be at odds with AND seen as a cultural imposition?

Liberties are ever so easily attacked, most often by those claiming to be preserving them.

There's no excuse for a veil ban. Not only does not solve a single damned thing, it's just plain bigotry.

[Moonbox]

The women should be allowed to wear the veil as they please, but their men shouldn't be able to force them.

Aside from that, removing the veil should be a requirement for things where seeing someone's face is required, like voting, getting into a bar, applying for a loan etc. There should be no exceptions for that. Period.

[Moonlight Graham]

You should not be allowed to hide your face in most public settings, regardless of the reason. Especially places like stores, schools, and banks.

Are you saying it should be illegal for me to walk around in a halloween mask in stores? Ridiculous. But a bank maybe i can understand, and schools if you are an adult guest.

Hell, a winter toque and a scarf covers about as much as a veil. Only time i can see a veil being forced to be removed is when proper ID must be shown ie: taking a passport photo, drivers license photo, health card etc., when voting. Also when working at a job (like RCMP or military) which demands a certain uniform to be worn.

[WIP]

Islamophobia...

That's right out of the rabble playbook...Islamofascism is the cause of most of problems in the Middle East,and increasingly,in other area's that are not predisposed to the Islamic faith.Rememeber,the Islamofascists don't even like certain Muslims who don't act "Muslim enough" in their eyes.

As far as the Europe business goes...

Has it ever occured to a cultural relativist like yourself that Islam,and its' cultural machinations,might be at odds with AND seen as a cultural imposition?

Has it ever occurred to you that Islamofascism could be fueled by Islamophobia? Any Muslim who takes a look at who is fighting Islamofascism is going to conclude that they will not accept them unless they abandon their religion entirely.

And has it ever occurred to you that Islam is not a monolithic religion? But, many times the voices for reform have stated that U.S. foreign policy, Israel's ethnic cleansing policies in Jerusalem and occupied territories, make it more difficult to advance reform. As long as extremist enemies are shouting on the other side, anyone on their side calling for reform can be labelled as a sellout or a collaborator with their enemies. It should be an easy concept to grasp, that turning down the heat is necessary before moderates in the Muslim communities can have their voices heard, but I don't think the loudest voices screaming about Islamofascism want peaceful solutions anyway. There are too many Neoconservatives who believe in foreign domination, and too many Christian Nationalists who want to push their own extremist religious agendas on us. In Canada and the U.S. we have more to fear from the growing militancy of the Christian Right, than we do from the competing religion.

[DogOnPorch]

Has it ever occurred to you that Islamofascism could be fueled by Islamophobia?

Explain the Mufti.

[Remiel]

. . .

I was talking about a veil. Your example was of a headscarf. The two are on completely different levels.

[Remiel]

Since when was clothing a racial characteristic?

This confusion between race and culture significantly hinders efforts made to find a resolution to these matters; it enables that odious but powerful race card to be played far too easily in a game in which it never belonged.

You are right of course. Clothing/culture are not racial characteristics. However, they often share the same demarcations. That is my whole point. I do not want cultural discrimination made into a useful pretext for racial discrimation.

Also, I think part of the reason they are often conflated is because there is no commonly used word for prejudice based on culture (or religion, for that matter).

[Remiel]

It is not racist,that is what the left likes to say,but really it is abuse.Do you think that muslim women wearing a burka in 100f weather is doing it because she wants to, no because she will probably get a beating the minute she got home. A beating in canada for not wearling a burka, real nice.

I cannot attest from first hand experience, but at least in hot, dry climates, I doubt the burkha would be as uncomfortable (heat wise) as you think. After all, religion or no, stuff like that does not survive unless it is in some way practical. In the desert, everyone wore bulky robes, to keep the sun and sand off. In other words, they wore them because of the heat, not despite it. However, it is possible that they are terrible in a hot, humid climate like ours.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Remiel

[William Ashley]

The law is rascist and is a violation of the charter of rights and freedoms.

[ToadBrother]

The women should be allowed to wear the veil as they please, but their men shouldn't be able to force them.

When you can figure out how exactly to stop domineering husbands in general from imposing their will on their wives, you let me know.

Aside from that, removing the veil should be a requirement for things where seeing someone's face is required, like voting, getting into a bar, applying for a loan etc. There should be no exceptions for that. Period.

There are always practical considerations that trump some liberties to a limited extent, but those should themselves be very much limited to necessity. Stopping veiled women on the street and fining them and sending social services or the cops to their house to determine whether they willingly covered their faces or whether their husbands, fathers, brothers, mothers or whoever is making them do it against their will.

It's an impractical law, and from what we can see even in Turkey, where the full ensemble has long been banned, women often openly flaunt the law.

[Handsome Rob]

I was talking about a veil. Your example was of a headscarf. The two are on completely different levels.

A Hijab is a tradional Islamic veil.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/17/article-1027300-01A5CADA00000578-892_468x656.jpg

[g_bambino]

You are right of course. Clothing/culture are not racial characteristics. However, they often share the same demarcations. That is my whole point. I do not want cultural discrimination made into a useful pretext for racial discrimation.

They don't really share the same delineations. Typically, you find one racial group having within it many different cultures, or one cultural practice extending across a number of races. Islamic headwear, for instance, is worn by Muslims from sub-Saharan Africa all the way to the minor Islands of Indonesia. I suppose someone could try and use Islamic dress as a vehicle to discriminate against any and all non-Caucasians, since there are few Caucasian Muslims, and even less devout enough to wear a ḥijāb, burqa, or niqāb. but I'm sure that person would have a hard time explaining what they have against all those non-Caucasians who don't wear any kind of ethnic garb.

[+]

Edited July 26, 2010 by g_bambino

[Bonam]

I have to disagree with this. Why should the law enable people who are racist to work the system over by banning clothing rather than people?

It has nothing to do with racism. It is about the right of a property owner to dictate what happens on their property. If I own a restaurant and don't want someone to come in without a shirt and shoes, I can make such a rule. If I own a restaurant and don't want someone to come in without their face visible, I should be able to have that rule as well.

[Remiel]

A Hijab is a tradional Islamic veil.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/17/article-1027300-01A5CADA00000578-892_468x656.jpg

Dude... Then why did you link a picture of a woman not wearing a veil?

In my exeriece, hijab is usually used interchangeable with headscarf, not veil. When I made the comment, that is what I meat. And I would bet that that is what the article I commented on meant as well.

[Remiel]

It has nothing to do with racism. It is about the right of a property owner to dictate what happens on their property. If I own a restaurant and don't want someone to come in without a shirt and shoes, I can make such a rule. If I own a restaurant and don't want someone to come in without their face visible, I should be able to have that rule as well.

How often are businesses actually property owners anyway?

Edited July 27, 2010 by Remiel

[Remiel]

I suppose someone could try and use Islamic dress as a vehicle to discriminate against any and all non-Caucasians, since there are few Caucasian Muslims, and even less devout enough to wear a ḥijāb, burqa, or niqāb. but I'm sure that person would have a hard time explaining what they have against all those non-Caucasians who don't wear any kind of ethnic garb.

[+]

Why would they care? If their intent was to get rid of them all, but they can only legally remove a few, the refusal of the others to do business with them would suit them just fine.

In any case, I still do not see the need for Bonam's idea that you can dictate to other people what they may passively do on your property, outside of common standards of decency and etiquette. Why should the law, and the courts, give a damn what you think about the colour purple, speaking Japanese, listening to an iPod, wearing a sari, looking at the clouds, or any number of other completely innocuous activities that he claims they may dictate. How could it possibly be worthwhile to the police and the courts to waste resources enforcing such a right for people who have nothing better to do than nitpick over how other people live? I think there is a big difference between a right to demand compliance with reasonable rules, and a right to demand compliance with any rules.

Remember, a lot of our ancestors came over here because the rich in Europe were (and are) so anal about their " rights " .

Edited July 27, 2010 by Remiel

[Machjo]

Just a clarification for everyone here. A veil does not necessarily cover the face. In fact, I chose that word purposely owing to the fact that, unlike words such as 'hijab', 'niqab', and 'burqa' which clearly reference apparel of a particular cultural influence, the English word 'veil' can be much more broadly defined. I don't know what gave everyone the idea that by veil I was necessarily referring to the Arab or Persian kind. After all, Roman Catholic nuns wear veils, and even western department stores sell them too, though they are usually referred to as scarves.

[Jack Weber]

Has it ever occurred to you that Islamofascism could be fueled by Islamophobia? Any Muslim who takes a look at who is fighting Islamofascism is going to conclude that they will not accept them unless they abandon their religion entirely.

And has it ever occurred to you that Islam is not a monolithic religion? But, many times the voices for reform have stated that U.S. foreign policy, Israel's ethnic cleansing policies in Jerusalem and occupied territories, make it more difficult to advance reform. As long as extremist enemies are shouting on the other side, anyone on their side calling for reform can be labelled as a sellout or a collaborator with their enemies. It should be an easy concept to grasp, that turning down the heat is necessary before moderates in the Muslim communities can have their voices heard, but I don't think the loudest voices screaming about Islamofascism want peaceful solutions anyway. There are too many Neoconservatives who believe in foreign domination, and too many Christian Nationalists who want to push their own extremist religious agendas on us. In Canada and the U.S. we have more to fear from the growing militancy of the Christian Right, than we do from the competing religion.

Good grief...

Are you a moderator at Rabble?

Seriously...I specifically said Islamofascists because I was going after a segment of Islam.I don't think it's a monolithic faith,but it's being hijacked by the crazies at the moment.US foreign policy is what's causing Islamofascism???The first people killing Muslims are the Islamofascists who kill all Muslims who are'nt Islamic enough in their eyes.It would be nice if they stood up against these thugs,but they've cearly been beaten into submission by these bloodthirsty thugs.

And now,in true Fascist fashion,they've started to strike out against those that are different and whom they deem inferior..(ie.The West,the people of The Cross,the Infidel etc,etc).They are now in our midst...I give you the self proclaimed "Al Quaeda family" known as the Khadr's as exhibit A...

These are bloodthirsty Fascist thugs who have wrapped up years of poverty and oppression under Fascist Ba'Athist regimes in an insular,and rigid, interpretation of their faith.

[maldon_road]

I don't care whether people walk down the street with their faces covered, be it an Islamic veil or a Joe Clark mask, so long as they remove them when they need to, which could be in a bank, airport or government office.

[DogOnPorch]

Speaking of banning clothes...now you Gaza girls better stop thinkin' those naughty thoughts.

Hamas bans lingerie displays in Gaza Strip

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10797575

[DogOnPorch]

Not to mention it's pretty hard to depict one's self as the modern version of Leningrad with Victoria's Secret being sold openly where the media might notice...lol.