Bryan Posted June 20, 2010 Report Share Posted June 20, 2010 In your world, rational discussion means drawing parallels between Apartheid in South Africa and the current Israeli-Arabic conflict. Nevermind the fact that you and I both know you've never so much as read one book about either subject. I've read plenty of books on the subject, I just tend to avoid the Zionist propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 What we've learned about wyly and Bryan with respect to their knowledge of the Holocaust: 1. Apparently the United States Holocaust Memorial Holocaust Museum, the Jewish Museum of Berlin, and Yad Vashem in Jerusalem (the most prominent Holocaust museums in the world who lead the world in Holocaust research) are "Zionist museums". 2. Apparently there were thirty thousand blacks in Germany during the Holocaust. 3. Apparently the homosexuals wore a "pink triangle", and other undesirables were identified with others markings. 4. Bryan has read "plenty of books on the subject (the Holocaust", and avoids the "Zionist propaganda". So aside from wyly's revisionist claims (which will of course never be substantiated because they're all false), Bryan is apparently well-read on this subject, as he avoids the "Zionist propaganda" regarding the Holocaust. This forum has undoubtedly reached a new low. One last point, I didn't know the Roma referred to the "segani" (Russian term for Gypsies). Excuse me for not knowing the English word to describe this group. Now I can really laugh, as trying to suggest that these people (who were absolutely victimized in the Holocaust) were targeted as the Jewish people by the Nazis and other collaborators just illustrates more ignorance of the history of the Holocaust. As one of endless examples, take a look at the anti-semitic propaganda of the Nazis - then try to find even one example of anti-Roma propaganda (posters, radio ads, public humiliations, labelling and targeting of individuals and properties for vandalism, etc). To deny the specific targeting of Jews in the Holocaust is pure ignorance. Perhaps it bothers you to accept this reality, for some twisted reason(s)? In all seriousness, this doesn't surprise me. Unless you're Jewish or interested in these events of history for some other reason (Jewish in-laws, friends, some other connection to the Holocaust), the likelihood of you researching these events is low because you don't have much of a connection to it. The number "six million" means nothing to you. To me, it includes some of my family. Naturally, through this and my Jewish upbringing, I was educated on these historical events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 (edited) Canada has taken in more permanent residents from Pakistan than the US and UK from 1999-2006, and in some years, more than both the US and UK combined. It's worth noting that Osama is more popular in Pakistan than Obama is in the US. And, of course, stating that the US and the UK are the two countries that Canada has the most in common with in the world is simply stating the obvious. However, this trend has started to reverse since 2007. Source: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/research-stats/facts2008.pdf (Canada - Permanent residents by source country pg. 23) Would you agree that Canada's large and growing Arab and Muslim population plays into increased Canadian public hostility towards Israel (connected with growing anti-semitism)? As an easy exercise for proof - take a look at the anti-Israel/anti-Zionist/anti-semitic messages all over the CBC website's comments section on articles dealing with Israel. Furthermore, politicians sensitive to this trend appear to be reflecting this anti-Israel trend that's growing in Canada, and are expressing anti-Israel sentiment (the Davies lady being a recent example). Anecdotally, although I've met quite a few Arab and Muslim professionals (with real education) who are truly integrated into modern life and success, some of the poorer areas in my city (subsidized housing, cheap rental units) seem to have more Arabs and Muslims than your common Canadian white trash. For every Jim Jones or Gilles LaFrancois high-school dropout in the loser neighbourhoods, there are five Muhammad bin Alis or Reima Adbuls - know what I'm saying? Assuming that Arabs and Muslims make up a greater proportion of the unemployed/low-income demographic than their proportion of the total Canadian population, it seems logical to me that the parties that pander to this low-income group (i.e. the NDP) would begin to reflect anti-Israel positions in their rhetoric. Edited June 21, 2010 by Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 I see. Other people treat the Palestinians like crap too, so that makes it OK. You apparently believe it is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 how is a state created by the UN powers against the will of the majority of residents legal?... Entirely legal. The only people who dont think the state of Israel is legal are the Palestinians and you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 Legal or not, blessed or damned, the Nation of Israel exists now and has for some time. So it was and so it shall be, bet on it. The reality is such that Israel requested many thousands of Palestinian nationals to stay before, during, and after the formation of the nation...multiple opportunities offered for those who chose to stay. Keep in mind these folks were there at the time and owned and ran most business and industry. The Jews took it over and changed everything. The place was a desert, its now in blossom. It feeds its own people and employs them too. It is a fully functional democratic nation, and that cannot be said of Gaza and their pet Hamas government. The world needs to consider many things, but the outcome of events in the middle east shall overtake events soon enough, and answers will determine the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 (edited) What we've learned about wyly and Bryan with respect to their knowledge of the Holocaust: 1. Apparently the United States Holocaust Memorial Holocaust Museum, the Jewish Museum of Berlin, and Yad Vashem in Jerusalem (the most prominent Holocaust museums in the world who lead the world in Holocaust research) are "Zionist museums". 2. Apparently there were thirty thousand blacks in Germany during the Holocaust. 3. Apparently the homosexuals wore a "pink triangle", and other undesirables were identified with others markings. 4. Bryan has read "plenty of books on the subject (the Holocaust", and avoids the "Zionist propaganda". So aside from wyly's revisionist claims (which will of course never be substantiated because they're all false), Bryan is apparently well-read on this subject, as he avoids the "Zionist propaganda" regarding the Holocaust. This forum has undoubtedly reached a new low. One last point, I didn't know the Roma referred to the "segani" (Russian term for Gypsies). Excuse me for not knowing the English word to describe this group. Now I can really laugh, as trying to suggest that these people (who were absolutely victimized in the Holocaust) were targeted as the Jewish people by the Nazis and other collaborators just illustrates more ignorance of the history of the Holocaust. As one of endless examples, take a look at the anti-semitic propaganda of the Nazis - then try to find even one example of anti-Roma propaganda (posters, radio ads, public humiliations, labelling and targeting of individuals and properties for vandalism, etc). To deny the specific targeting of Jews in the Holocaust is pure ignorance. Perhaps it bothers you to accept this reality, for some twisted reason(s)? In all seriousness, this doesn't surprise me. Unless you're Jewish or interested in these events of history for some other reason (Jewish in-laws, friends, some other connection to the Holocaust), the likelihood of you researching these events is low because you don't have much of a connection to it. The number "six million" means nothing to you. To me, it includes some of my family. Naturally, through this and my Jewish upbringing, I was educated on these historical events. who has denied this bob??? who? please point out where anyone denied that jews were victims of the Nazi's...you're playing the sympathy card ..."Unless you're Jewish or interested in these events of history for some other reason (Jewish in-laws, friends, some other connection to the Holocaust), the likelihood of you researching these events is low because you don't have much of a connection to it." exactly you don't give a fuck about anyone else because you've got tunnel vision, only the jews suffered because you saw it in a zionist museum so it must be true, they never mentioned anything about blacks, gays, Roma, JW's so it couldn't have happened right bob?...have you researched the others bob? no you haven't, apparently bob to use your words "the likelihood of you researching these events is low because you don't have much of a connection to it"...a few keystokes into the google search engine and less than a second the answer is infront of you but you don't want to know do you bob..you want to perpetuate the myth for the zionist cause, "only jews were persecuted therefore we have the right to steal land and persecute another people"...The number "six million" means nothing to you.no bob the number is 12 million...do those other 6 million mean nothing to you, are those other 6 million not people because they weren't jews bob? are they a myth bob? no JW's, gays, blacks, Roma died in the holocaust bob? is that what your claiming bob?...bob, I think you've just become a holocaust denier...wyly's revisionist claims (which will of course never be substantiated because they're all false), just for you bob to shake you out of your self induced ignorance a selection of coloured patches you say didn't exist, oh look a pink one for gays too...bob the revisionist/holocaust denier... oh hey bob here's the Nazi anti-Roma propaganda you said I couldn't find one example of Edited June 21, 2010 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 Entirely legal. The term "legal" is inapplicable; there's no law outlining how new sovereign states are formed, nor is there even a world parliament to pass such legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespeaker Posted June 21, 2010 Report Share Posted June 21, 2010 The term "legal" is inapplicable; there's no law outlining how new sovereign states are formed, nor is there even a world parliament to pass such legislation. Actually that's not really the case. While international law can be violated, there are binding agreements between states regarding a whole range of issues - from the criteria for statehood (Montevideo Convention) to basic rules of warfare (the Geneva convention). There's no need for world parliament is all (or almost all) states pass binding treaties/conventions/protocols. Part of non-binding international law is made up of UN General Assembly resolutions, which are pretty clear when it comes to Israel: Its occupation of the West Bank and any territory gained beyond the 1967 borders is illegal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 The term "legal" is inapplicable; there's no law outlining how new sovereign states are formed, nor is there even a world parliament to pass such legislation. Dont tell me you're another one who thinks the State of Israel is "illegal"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Free Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 (edited) Its occupation of the West Bank and any territory gained beyond the 1967 borders is illegal... Not really.......Ask Jordan about their involvement in the West Bank from '48 - '67. They would tell you it wasnt illegal... The hostilities by the Palestinians and the Arab world in general were the reason that this shit was perpetrated in the first place. It could have ended years ago if the Arab world was prepared to accept the existance of Israel prior to '67. Sad but true... Edited June 22, 2010 by Born Free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 (edited) The hostilities by the Palestinians and the Arab world in general were the reason that this shit was perpetrated in the first place. It could have ended years ago if the Arab world was prepared to accept the existance of Israel prior to '67. Sad but true... Unmitigated bullshit. The ethnic cleansing by the Israelis were the start of the conflict. If Israel had respected the Palestinian's right to exist and to remain in their ancestral homes that they had occupied continuously for centuries, they could have avoided most of the problems we see today. Instead they took the attitude of "this is ours, you get out" and proceeded to bulldoze those homes. You'd have attacked them too. Edited June 22, 2010 by Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 Unmitigated bullshit. The ethnic cleansing by the Israelis were the start of the conflict. What ethnic cleansing are you fantasizing about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 What ethnic cleansing are you fantasizing about? There was a lot of palestinians driven out between 1947, and 1949. Israeli historian Benny Morris in "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" estimates between 600 000 and 720 000. Then you have more recent incidents that are smaller but could still fit the bill. Sharon and his cabinet utilised the November 15 ambush of Israeli security forces in Hebron by Islamic Jihad and the ensuing gun battle that killed 12 members of the Israeli armed forces and injured 15, as well as three of the Palestinian attackers, to make their announcements.Sharon himself called for “territorial contiguity” between Kiryat Arba, a settlement overlooking Hebron, the tiny Zionist enclaves and the Tomb of the Patriarchs, a religious site venerated by both Moslems and Jews, inside the city. Palestinians living between the settlement, the enclaves and the Tomb would be forced to leave their homes to make way for the settlers—a policy known throughout the world as ethnic cleansing. He told army commanders in Hebron that Israel had to “take advantage of the opportunity” to “minimise the number of Palestinians living among Jewish settlers” and establish “Jewish points of presence”. He described this as “an appropriate Zionist response” to such attacks. Sharon’s newly appointed foreign affairs minister and main leadership rival, Benyamin Netanyahu, was even more explicit. “We are going to cleanse the whole area and do the work ourselves.” he declared. Israeli security forces immediately imposed a curfew, arrested and blindfolded at least 40 Palestinians, bulldozed the homes of Palestinian families and uprooted their olive groves. This gave the ultra-nationalist settlers the green light to establish an “outpost”—the basis for a new settlement—on the vacant land and daub it with the racist slogan “Death to Arabs.” The settlers own language echoed the government’s calls for ethnic cleansing. The leader of the Hebron settlement, Zvi Katsover, said, “We have to cleanse the ground to ensure an Israeli territorial continuity between Kiryat Arba and Hebron.” A thousand new homes are to be built in the area. “I trust Sharon to implement the project,” he added. At a rally in Hebron, Benny Elon, leader of the ultra-right wing Moledet (Homeland) party, declared, “There won’t be just a Jewish neighbourhood here. There will be a Jewish town here.” According to the New York Times, “In a turbulent crowd, they [the settlers] pounded on the doors of nearby Palestinian houses and then smeared the pale stone with blue graffiti: ‘Every Arab killed for me it’s a holiday,’ and, over and over, ‘Vengeance’.” Later the government issued an order for the demolition of a further 15 Palestinian homes on the route from Kiryat Arba to the Jewish enclave in Hebron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 There was a lot of palestinians driven out between 1947, and 1949. Israeli historian Benny Morris in "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" estimates between 600 000 and 720 000. Benny Morris estimates a lot of things...the number may indeed be accurate, what is not accurate is the unqualified statement that they were driven out. Most left on the orders of the Arab League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 Unmitigated bullshit. The ethnic cleansing by the Israelis were the start of the conflict. I'm afraid that makes no sense at all. There certainly was some encouragement of resident Arabs in certain parts of Israel to leave, but this came in the midst of a war which the Arab League had initiated against Israel. You can't go back and retroactively suggest the war was caused by the violence it caused. Furthermore, millions of Arabs remained in Israel, safe and sound to this day, with considerably more rights than their compatriots in surrounding Arab states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 There was a lot of palestinians driven out between 1947, and 1949. Israeli historian Benny Morris in "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" estimates between 600 000 and 720 000. There was a lot of violence and threats during the war initiated by the Arabs. Something over 500,000 Jews were forced out of surrounding Arab nations at the same time. They were all accepted into Israel, became citizens, and got on with their lives. Unfortunately, the surrounding Arab states refused to accept their Arab brethren, who they penned in refugee camps along the border, and keep there to this day. The people who first moved into these camps had children there - and those children were still not given citizenship - then they had children, and again those children were not given citizenship. One wonders how many generations will be born within the borders of these states before they are given any rights as citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 where did bob the holcaust denier go......probably back to Hasbara HQ to brush up on his zionist revisionist history... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 where did bob the holcaust denier go......probably back to Hasbara HQ to brush up on his zionist revisionist history... Bob is the alter ego of Naomiglover... Maybe they're the same person having one,long internal discussion exposing some sort of personal conflict? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 where did bob the holcaust denier go......probably back to Hasbara HQ to brush up on his zionist revisionist history... Bob a.k.a Mr. Canada, might have joined the banned group. That's my suspicion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 Honestly, I don't feel like participating in this thread anymore. About 99% of what's being said in here by the anti-Israel crows is false. I do not have the patience to go into a history lesson about either the Holocaust or the origins and early history of the Zionist-Arab conflict. As has been said already, Benny Morris created the quintessential resource for this history with "1948". With respect to Holocaust education, it's the most well-documented historical event of all-time. If anybody has a sincere interest in it, there are thousands of books and many rich museums. I simply don't have the patience to argue with people who are aware of the unique persecution suffered by the Jewish people during the Holocaust or those who make false allegations of "ethnic cleansing" in the pre-Israel Palestine without having so much as read a book about the history of these events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 22, 2010 Report Share Posted June 22, 2010 Peace be with you Bob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted June 23, 2010 Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 (edited) Bob a.k.a Mr. Canada, might have joined the banned group. That's my suspicion. Probably not,but his extreme position(and constant rationalizations for it) have grown tiresome... Frankly,it's high time he and Naomi went to the same place as Lictor... Edited June 23, 2010 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 23, 2010 Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 Unfortunately, the surrounding Arab states refused to accept their Arab brethren, who they penned in refugee camps along the border, and keep there to this day. The people who first moved into these camps had children there - and those children were still not given citizenship - then they had children, and again those children were not given citizenship. One wonders how many generations will be born within the borders of these states before they are given any rights as citizens. So long as the regimes that rule those Arab states last, so too will the refugee problem. They have no interest in accepting more citizens, they benefit much more by keeping those people in refugee camps as part of the worldwide propaganda campaign against Israel. Of course, part of the fault lies with the refugees themselves, one need only consider the events that transpired in Jordan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted June 23, 2010 Report Share Posted June 23, 2010 If the mid east didn't have Palestinians they would be forced to import Mexicans... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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