56% of Canadians are anti-semites!

[wyly]

Israel's legitimacy is not dependent on the UN. If tomorrow the UN didn't recognize Israel, Israel would still exist.

With respect to majority wishes, the majority of the resident population of the Middle East wants the Jewish state destroyed and the Jewish population liquidated. Thankfully, the UN and some in the international community are opposed to these wishes. Clearly, you are a supporter of Islamic dictatorships. How honourable of you.

the majority wanted an independent state which was promised to them if they assisted in the war effort against the colonizing Ottomans, Palestinians fought and died in that struggle for independence only to see the land stolen and given to a very small minority...I'm a supporter of justice, freedom and independence...you are a supporter of theft and ethnic cleansing, how very nazi of you...

[Argus]

I don't think you even know what my arguement is.

No, I think the problem is YOU don't know what your argument is.

I would have thought that was obvious, that jews are more persecuted than any of the hundreds of other ethnicities out there.

Now you're simply going back full circle to your statement to which I have already replied.

I would say that is pretty obviously untrue, as well. How many planes have been hijacked, how many cruise ships pirated so that, for example, Gypsies or Gays or Albanians or Blacks or natives aboard could be separated out and murdered? How many terrorists have stated happiness that all blacks/gays/hispanics/catholics/budhists are gathered in one place so he doesn't have to hunt them elsewhere? How much hate literature, including movies, plays, web sites and entire purportedly academic books (many, many books), have been created to vilify and express hatred for the Portuguese, for Muslims, Hindus or Baptists?

Deal with my questions above or tell me what I've written you believe to be untrue.

[dre]

You mean you don't see it as his spending time "on a subject that he's obviously interested in?"

This is what I was referring to before; you go after him, an obvious Irael supporter, as you not only give naomiglover, an obvious Palestine supporter, a pass, but you defend her.

But then what do I know? I'm an American, so most of my knowledge on this conflict is extremely one-sided, too. And as an American, my views are based on all sorts of stupid beliefs. Certainly they're not based on any legitimate beliefs or knowledge. And that's why my views should be taken with a grain of salt. It's why only Americans who support Palestine should be taken seriously. Because they're smart, and obviously have studied both sides of the conflict, while Americans who support Israel are ignoramuses. What other possible reason could there be for supporting Israel?

I dont go after him because hes an Israel supporter. I go after him because hes a bombastic child that constantly throws temper tantrums, that cant get a single post out without stuff like...

Listen. You schmuck. You moron. You idiot. You are a dispicable liar. Go fuck yourself.

And so on. Then theres all the crap about ethnic cleansing, palestinians being a "disease" etc.

If Naomi was a bombastic spaz Id take issue with that too.

I never critisized the frequency with which he posts, so Im not sure why youre comparing this to your other thread about Naomi Glover.

And Im not sure why youd challenge me on that anyways. I said that your idea to limit new posts was fine, and that Id been on other forums where such rules worked quite well. The context here is that Bob talks about his education in pretty much every single post, and I merely pointed out hes confusing education with indoctrination.

And I have no problem with Israel supporters, theres lot of them here and most of them can get through a post without turrets syndrome style spasms, wretching and jerking.

[Bob]

it's typical, they were the only people ever persecuted,zionists would have us believe only they were targeted for extermination in WW2, they don't want us distracted by the extermination of gays, gypsies, blacks, Jehovah Witness...no, according to the propaganda it was only the jews who were targeted so they alone deserve our sympathy and the exclusive right to steal another peoples homes and land....

More lies. Go to any Holocaust Museum (all of which virtually entirely funded by Jewish and Zionist philanthropy), and there is thorough documentation on the Nazi victimization of many groups. Still, no other group was as targeted as the Jews in Nazi Europe. Whether it be the billboards and posters likening Jews to insects destroying to world, the yellow star imposed on those identified as Jews, the focus of Hilter's and other Nazi officials' speeches, or the shutdowns and destruction of Jewish businesses and communities. No other identifiable group went through the same degree and focus of Nazi persecution.

Again, you are supremely ignorant of the Holocaust, and sickeningly try to suggest that Zionism has gone out of its way to exploit the Holocaust. Indeed, Zionism was around for many decades before the Holocaust, and Herzl himself had made harrowing and accurate predictions of what was coming to the Jews in Europe. Rather than being a movement for the emancipation of persecuted Jewry in Europe and the Middle East, in your twisted world Zionism was a profiteer from the Holocaust. Zionism sought to save Jews from the growing anti-semitism throughout Europe that manifested itself in the Holocaust, and Zionist Jews have been the leaders of research into the events of the Holocaust. No worthwhile Holocaust museum (the Holocaust Museum in Washington, Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, The Jewish Museum in Berlin) glosses over the broad scope of catastrophe of the entirety of WWII. You've never been to any of these museums, let alone read a book about the Holocaust - yet you pretend to know how Zionists have recorded the events of the Holocaust. You are a very disturbed individual, get help.

[Bob]

And so on. Then theres all the crap about ethnic cleansing, palestinians being a "disease" etc.

I was clear that I compared cultural trends of anti-semitism that are prevalent in the broader Arab and Muslim collection (which includes Palestinians) to a disease that threatens the lives of Israelis and Jews abroad. Anti-semitism is a social disease and it kills. Thousands of Jews and non-Jews alike are murdered by Islamic fundamentalists who are anti-semitic. When I compare that to a disease your sensibilities are somehow offended? I do not think Palestinians or their Arab and Muslim cousins are genetically inferior, I simply acknowledge the reality that it is common among them to hate Jews and Israel and glorify violence. I know some Arabs and Muslims who are Westernized and liberalized, but they themselves have confided in me that it is a generational progression, with much of their family remaining staunchly anti-semitic, anti-Zionist, and anti-Israel.

Have a candid talk with an Arab or Muslim one day, ask them about what the political dialogue looked like growing up within their family and broader cultural circle. It's not hard to discover this. It's not deeply buried within them.

Even easier - how about going to any Islamic website and reading their articles on the Israeli-Arab conflict? What do you think the perspectives of CAIR are on this matter? Go to any Islamic-activist website and show me one article that explicitly recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state without precondition. Show me an Islamic activist website that supports Zionism's successful goal of creating a safe-haven for Jews in Israel, and to permit Jewish self-determination. You know you won't do this, because it would then alleviate some of the ignorance to which you're addicted.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Bob

[Remiel]

Do you honestly think that anti-Ziganism is not still a huge problem, Argus? Second only to anti-Semitism and in some places arguably worse? I would contend that the conditions in Europe today make it far for likely that Romani could suffer from ethnic violence on a grand and lethal scale than Jews. Their treatment is atrocious.

The Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights Thomas Hammarberg has been an outspoken critic of Antiziganism, both in reports and periodic Viewpoints. In August 2008, Hammarberg noting that "today's rhetoric against the Roma is very similar to the one used by Nazis and fascists before the mass killings started in the thirties and forties. Once more, it is argued that the Roma are a threat to safety and public health. No distinction is made between a few criminals and the overwhelming majority of the Roma population. This is shameful and dangerous."

Of course, no one really cares that about the Romani or the fact that they suffered alongside the Jews for most of the same reasons. The numbers are hard to pin down because they were nomadic and disorganized, but it could of been anywhere from two and a half hundred thousand to one and a half million. I guess it does not count though unless it is approaching six? And they do have a word for it too, " Porajmos " ; the Devouring.

Hell, in the last year even Canada decided to clamp down on refugees from the Czech Republic because apparently we were scared of the Roma. The Czech Republic, where 90% of the populations does not want Roma as neighbours; more than any other group.

And then there were the Molotov cocktail attacks in Hungary.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Remiel

[Guest American Woman]

If Naomi was a bombastic spaz Id take issue with that too.

Evidently you haven't read a lot of her posts.

I never critisized the frequency with which he posts, so Im not sure why youre comparing this to your other thread about Naomi Glover.

And Im not sure why youd challenge me on that anyways. I said that your idea to limit new posts was fine, and that Id been on other forums where such rules worked quite well. The context here is that Bob talks about his education in pretty much every single post, and I merely pointed out hes confusing education with indoctrination.

By the same token, naomiglover likes to talk about how well-read she is, and how no one else has obviously read anything so their opinion is useless, and of course everyone who she disagrees with is ultimately "babbling lies" no matter how respectful their response to her had been, etc.

It's like kimmy said, there are some posters who are crazed and others who are respected, and it just sort of has me stumped as to why some people don't see that regarding naomiglover, while they clearly see it in the Israel supporters who fit the bill.

And I have no problem with Israel supporters, theres lot of them here and most of them can get through a post without turrets syndrome style spasms, wretching and jerking.

According to what you said about Americans who support Israel, you have a problem with them, so it must be just Americans who support Israel then? You said their support is based on lack of knowledge, ignorance, and should be taken with a grain of salt. Because Americans are stupid.

Americans support for Israel is based mostly on the prevalence of an extremely one-sided view of the history of the ME conflict. If you talk to some of these folks and actually listen to what they believe its no wonder they support Israel.

You gotta take Americans support with a grain of salt though... Remember 80% of these people wanted to invade Iraq because they believed there was huge stockpiles of WMDs.

At any rate, I was curious, and I think I've pretty much got my answers; and as I said before, I'm pretty much tired of it all.

[Bob]

Do you honestly think that anti-Ziganism is not still a huge problem, Argus? Second only to anti-Semitism and in some places arguably worse? I would contend that the conditions in Europe today make it far for likely that Romani could suffer from ethnic violence on a grand and lethal scale than Jews. Their treatment is atrocious.

Of course, no one really cares that about the Romani or the fact that they suffered alongside the Jews for most of the same reasons. The numbers are hard to pin down because they were nomadic and disorganized, but it could of been anywhere from two and a half hundred thousand to one and a half million. I guess it does not count though unless it is approaching six? And they do have a word for it too, " Porajmos " ; the Devouring.

Hell, in the last year even Canada decided to clamp down on refugees from the Czech Republic because apparently we were scared of the Roma. The Czech Republic, where 90% of the populations does not want Roma as neighbours; more than any other group.

And then there were the Molotov cocktail attacks in Hungary.

I don't know about Romanis so I can't comment. Anti-semitism being more pervasive and penetrating more cultures doesn't lessen the suffering of other groups at the hand of their oppressors. This is not some contest where we need to compete for who has been oppressed the most. Jews don't view themselves as victims, anyways. There is no affront to other afflicted groups to recognize the unique severity of anti-semitism across history and even today. Jews are still murdered because of who they are in some parts of this world.

[Remiel]

Jews are still murdered because of who they are in some parts of this world.

So are Romani.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Now you're simply going back full circle to your statement to which I have already replied.

I would say that is pretty obviously untrue, as well. How many planes have been hijacked, how many cruise ships pirated so that, for example, Gypsies or Gays or Albanians or Blacks or natives aboard could be separated out and murdered? How many terrorists have stated happiness that all blacks/gays/hispanics/catholics/budhists are gathered in one place so he doesn't have to hunt them elsewhere? How much hate literature, including movies, plays, web sites and entire purportedly academic books (many, many books), have been created to vilify and express hatred for the Portuguese, for Muslims, Hindus or Baptists?

Deal with my questions above or tell me what I've written you believe to be untrue.

No you've stated an opinion. But sure lets fo through and point out everything wrong with what you've said.

How many planes have been hijacked, how many cruise ships pirated so that, for example, Gypsies or Gays or Albanians or Blacks or natives aboard could be separated out and murdered?

The only thing I've managed to find on this is the Achille Lauro incident. Which resulted in the death of all of one person. So I'm supposed to compare the number of "Gypsies or Gays or Albanians or Blacks or natives" killed specifically on hijacked planes or cruise ships and compare it to one incident on a cruise ship where one jew was killed? Or are there more but they're hidden?

How many terrorists have stated happiness that all blacks/gays/hispanics/catholics/budhists are gathered in one place so he doesn't have to hunt them elsewhere?

Kind of hard to do that since they aren't. Nice try though.

How much hate literature, including movies, plays, web sites and entire purportedly academic books (many, many books), have been created to vilify and express hatred for the Portuguese, for Muslims, Hindus or Baptists?

That's all you got? Really? Let's start with something you might understand, My link

[Bob]

So are Romani.

What's your point?

[Remiel]

What's your point?

What was yours? You were the one who felt compelled to add in the point about Jews being killed for who they are, today. Lots of people get killed just for who they are in this day and age.

[GostHacked]

This is not some contest where we need to compete for who has been oppressed the most. Jews don't view themselves as victims, anyways.

No of course not.

[Guest TrueMetis]

This is not some contest where we need to compete for who has been oppressed the most. Jews don't view themselves as victims, anyways.

Which is why you seem to have to fight for your title so hard.

Jews are still murdered because of who they are in some parts of this world.

So's pretty much everyone, just depends on where you go.

[myata]

I think the overwhelming majority of posters and people in general, no matter what their view is on things will agree to it. If the majority of people do hold the view that this kind of rhetoric does not help, then we do we see it so much? Or are we focusing on a few loudmouths that are the ones consistently saying it.

Well, it's not an election but a discussion supposedly decided by logic and reason. But what if somebody decided to believe that "anti-" is everybody but themselves (it wouldn't be too far off in the case in question). How do you convince them otherwise, short of full brain transplant and/or reboot of consciousness?

But I sincerely admire your efforts guys, nonetheless.

[Bob]

What was yours? You were the one who felt compelled to add in the point about Jews being killed for who they are, today. Lots of people get killed just for who they are in this day and age.

So the historic persecution of Jews is irrelevant to the history of Zionism and the culmination of the dream through the establishment of Israel? Are you this obtuse?

Saying "lots of people get killed just for who they are" trivializes the Jewish experience of persecution. The statement isn't even true. No doubt part of your work towards delegitimizing Israel's foundation and Jewish character.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Bob

[Bob]

Which is why you seem to have to fight for your title so hard.

So's pretty much everyone, just depends on where you go.

I don't need the title. Neither do Jews in the broad sense. We don't sit on welfare and blame previous injustices. We don't commit crimes and blame previous hardships. We don't become alcoholics and drug addicts and play the victim card. We don't strap bombs to ourselves and commit mass murder around the world in the name of defense of our religion. On the whole, we do well for ourselves in free socieities. I guess that bothers you.

[myata]

So the historic persecution of Jews is irrelevant to the history of Zionism and the culmination of the dream through the establishment of Israel? Are you this obtuse?

Indeed it's entirely irrelevant as justification of Israel's own atrocities.

[Bob]

Indeed it's entirely irrelevant as justification of Israel's own atrocities.

Indeed Israel's existence is an atrocity.

[myata]

Indeed Israel's existence is an atrocity.

You're saying it. But do keep talking to yourself, it's very rewarding not to mention the entertainment value.

[Guest TrueMetis]

On the whole, we do well for ourselves in free socieities. I guess that bothers you.

And you got this where exactly? Are we reading different threads?

[wyly]

More lies. Go to any Holocaust Museum (all of which virtually entirely funded by Jewish and Zionist philanthropy), and there is thorough documentation on the Nazi victimization of many groups. Still, no other group was as targeted as the Jews in Nazi Europe. Whether it be the billboards and posters likening Jews to insects destroying to world, the yellow star imposed on those identified as Jews, the focus of Hilter's and other Nazi officials' speeches, or the shutdowns and destruction of Jewish businesses and communities. No other identifiable group went through the same degree and focus of Nazi persecution.

Again, you are supremely ignorant of the Holocaust, and sickeningly try to suggest that Zionism has gone out of its way to exploit the Holocaust. You are a very disturbed individual, get help.

again just as in your first post you're historically ignorant or your a member of the Hasbara spreading the zionist propaganda....the Roma were persecuted years before the Jews of the pre war era, in fact they've been persecuted/victimized for centuries...yellow star for jews, yeah, the Roma wore the brown triangle, Jehovah witness the purple triangle, homosexuals pink triangle and there were others as well, blacks didn't get a triangle of any sort as they were executed asap.

I don't know about Romanis so I can't comment. Anti-semitism being more pervasive and penetrating more cultures doesn't lessen the suffering of other groups at the hand of their oppressors.

and this is after you accuse me of being ignorant

This is not some contest where we need to compete for who has been oppressed the most. Jews don't view themselves as victims, anyways. There is no affront to other afflicted groups to recognize the unique severity of anti-semitism across history and even today. Jews are still murdered because of who they are in some parts of this world.

no this is all about playing the sympathy card, using zionist talking points to deflect critisism, always refer back to the holocaust and accuse all opposition as anti-semitic...

[Bob]

again just as in your first post you're historically ignorant or your a member of the Hasbara spreading the zionist propaganda....the Roma were persecuted years before the Jews of the pre war era, in fact they've been persecuted/victimized for centuries...yellow star for jews, yeah, the Roma wore the brown triangle, Jehovah witness the purple triangle, homosexuals pink triangle and there were others as well, blacks didn't get a triangle of any sort as they were executed asap.

Pink triangle for homosexuals? Blacks executed ASAP? What blacks were in Europe at the time? WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! You are just making things up as you go along - there were no pink or purple triangles! There were virtually no blacks in Europe!

Roma persecuted years before the Jews, as we've been persecuted for thousands of years? How can someone be so ignorant? The stupidity of this post simply cannot be ignored. You know nothing about the Holocaust. Do yourself a favour, go to a Holocaust museum, leave the cave you live in and get out into the world. Educate yourself. Read a book on the Holocaust, just do something! The lesson to be learned from the Holocaust IS NOT to hate Jews and Israel!

Reading posts like your embarrasses me that you're a Canadian - how can we have such ignorance and hate in this beautiful country? Shameful.

and this is after you accuse me of being ignorant

no this is all about playing the sympathy card, using zionist talking points to deflect critisism, always refer back to the holocaust and accuse all opposition as anti-semitic...

Trust me, judging from your posts you are in NO position to be talking about European history. At least I can admit ignorance on matters.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Bob

[Pliny]

Reading posts like your embarrasses me that you're a Canadian - how can we have such ignorance and hate in this beautiful country? Shameful.

Trust me, judging from your posts you are in NO position to be talking about European history. At least I can admit ignorance on matters.

I over the years asked myself about the Jews and their role in the world. No one can deny their influence and accomplishments.

I can, to a degree, understand their persecution, most of which is rooted in the past and in past prejudices in European society.

European Christian countries did not allow them ownership of land and there were other restrictions on them. There is no doubt they were persecuted and were second class citizens, even before WWII.

I believe the enthusiasm and elation of Zionists at the founding of Israel allowed for some zealousness and righteousness in establishing the State and that atrocities against the inhabitants of the then British mandate of Palestine did occur.

I have concluded that there is some historical relevance to their claim of the Holy land but the method of establishing that was more a political decision than anything else and met with resistance from the established residents.

In the end Jews are not unlike any other interest group and it is only their prevalence in financial circles that lends any credence to their involvement in conspiracy theories. They did become the bankers of European monarchs but that was not all Jews most were were just average people trying to live life as they saw fit.

I will say that Jews expect to be persecuted, perhaps because they maintain an identity different than the citizenship of countries where they reside. They will attempt to fit in but will not be assimilated.

I'm getting tired so have to go. I could add some more but basically Jews are no different than other ethnic groups. As individuals we are more tolerant, as a collective we are less tolerant.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Pliny

[Argus]

Do you honestly think that anti-Ziganism is not still a huge problem, Argus? Second only to anti-Semitism and in some places arguably worse?

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. How many web sites can you find with people demanding the gypsies all be killed? How many books have been written which went to extraordinary lengths to show that really, no gypsies were killed in WW2 except maybe one or two? How many world leaders and terrorist leaders have made vicious and hateful comments and threats about gypsies? How many newspapers and magazines throughout the world carry racist caricatures and suggestions gypsies drink the blood of small children? How many terrorist incidents have targeted gypsies? How many gypsy day-care centres and schools have been attacked?

I would contend that the conditions in Europe today make it far for likely that Romani could suffer from ethnic violence on a grand and lethal scale than Jews.

And are armed guards necessary outside every gypsy church or school? If not, why not?

Hell, in the last year even Canada decided to clamp down on refugees from the Czech Republic because apparently we were scared of the Roma.

The Roma have an unfortunately well-documented history of crime, in this country and many, many others, which makes them unpopular neighbours, and occasionally the victims of attacks. But that's nothing compared to the number of organized groups, newspapers, etc, which attack Jews. High members of the Muslim world attack Jews as "pigs and monkeys" and their media depict them as evil murderers of children and worshipers of satan. Jewish schools and temples have been attacked throughout the world, including in Canada and the US.

You are adopting them in a frantic search for some other group you hope to somehow compare to Jews, but it's not working. You look increasingly like someone who resents the idea of any sympathy for Jews because of their being targeted and is desperately trying to find a reason why that sympathy should not exist.