Myth of the two-state solution.

[Bob]

Your sixty-second internet research project doesn't qualify as some sort of knowledge of Zionism. You're still wrong in suggesting that Zionism is grounded in biblical prophecy or religious perspectives of territory, copying-and-pasting things from anti-semitic websites doesn't change anything,

Your implication with the source "Jews Against Zionism" seems to be a suggestion that a Jewish person can't be anti-semitic. Again, you excel with stupidity.

[naomiglover]

Bob is right that originally Zionist movement was brought forward to create a homeland for the Jews to escape persecution in Europe. Argentina was heavily considered before Palestine was picked. In the early 1900's, the population of Palestine, even after the first wave of migrants from Russia, was less than 10% Jewish. Then the following waves immigrated to the region.

However, now, many Zionists use the Jewish history (biblical) in the region as their justification to push Palestinians out and claim ownership to the land.

[dre]

Your sixty-second internet research project doesn't qualify as some sort of knowledge of Zionism. You're still wrong in suggesting that Zionism is grounded in biblical prophecy or religious perspectives of territory, copying-and-pasting things from anti-semitic websites doesn't change anything,

Your implication with the source "Jews Against Zionism" seems to be a suggestion that a Jewish person can't be anti-semitic. Again, you excel with stupidity.

Ive done a lot more research than you have. BTW... that definition is from the Anti Defamation League... who you would no doubt characterize as anti-semites as well

LOVE your suggestion that even Jews that devote their lives to the Torah but disagree with you are anti-semites.

Its really quite funny how youve basically created your very own definition of the word "anti-semite" which essentially is "anybody thats not a fanatical unabashed zealot or who has any critisism of the state of Israel at all".

[dre]

Bob is right that originally Zionist movement was brought forward to create a homeland for the Jews to escape persecution in Europe. Argentina was heavily considered before Palestine was picked. In the early 1900's, the population of Palestine, even after the first wave of migrants from Russia, was less than 10% Jewish. Then the following waves immigrated to the region.

However, now, many Zionists use the Jewish history (biblical) in the region as their justification to push Palestinians out and claim ownership to the land.

Bob is right that originally Zionist movement was brought forward to create a homeland for the Jews

The word zion itself is a biblical term for the Jewish homeland. They didnt just want "A" homeland, they wanted a certain piece of realestate, and they wanted that certain piece of realestate because its the land Jews were exiled from two thousand years ago and have wanted to return to ever since. You cant separate these two aspects. If all jews wanted was a nation, then it could have been in Nebraska, or Saskatchewan, or on Greenland. What they wanted though was for jews to return to the holy land.

[Bob]

The word zion itself is a biblical term for the Jewish homeland. They didnt just want "A" homeland, they wanted a certain piece of realestate, and they wanted that certain piece of realestate because its the land Jews were exiled from two thousand years ago and have wanted to return to ever since. You cant separate these two aspects. If all jews wanted was a nation, then it could have been in Nebraska, or Saskatchewan, or on Greenland. What they wanted though was for jews to return to the holy land.

Initially they considered other territories. The existence of a biblical terms in the name of the nationalist movement isn't that meaningful. What's meaningful are the words of the early Zionists themselves. Read Herzl's articles and foundational book on Zionism, read about the early Zionist Congress discussions and decisions, read the positions of early Zionists - there was extremely little religiosity as a part of this movement. The early Zionists viewed themselves much more as an ethnicity than a group connected through religion and/or culture. Your assertion remains false, stop trying so desperately to prove it.

Zionism may have evolved over time in some dimensions among some groups towards a more religious perspective (i.e. God promised this land to us), but that was never in the early Zionist movements and it still isn't a major component of the contemporary Zionist movement.

[dre]

Initially they considered other territories. The existence of a biblical terms in the name of the nationalist movement isn't that meaningful. What's meaningful are the words of the early Zionists themselves. Read Herzl's articles and foundational book on Zionism, read about the early Zionist Congress discussions and decisions, read the positions of early Zionists - there was extremely little religiosity as a part of this movement. The early Zionists viewed themselves much more as an ethnicity than a group connected through religion and/or culture. Your assertion remains false, stop trying so desperately to prove it.

Zionism may have evolved over time in some dimensions among some groups towards a more religious perspective (i.e. God promised this land to us), but that was never in the early Zionist movements and it still isn't a major component of the contemporary Zionist movement.

Yup! I know! Its just a TOTAL COICIDENCE that Zionists wanted their state in Zion. Gotcha

In any case youve done and said NOTHING to prove your false premise that anti-zionism, and anti-semitism are the same thing. A person could oppose the creation of a jewish state in the middle east without hating jews. And al your waffling and floundering wont change that in a million years.

Hell... Lots of the indians here in the Canada would love to have an independant state here too. But most would oppose it regardless of whether or not they were racist against indians. And they would have as much right to a state on their ancestoral homeland as anyone else, and as much right to "self determination" and nationalist aspirations. Is everyone that opposes the creation of an independant First Nations state on land that is now Canadian a racist too?

Edited June 17, 2010 by dre

[Bob]

And still... nobody has watched the video from the original post.

[GostHacked]

Your sixty-second internet research project doesn't qualify as some sort of knowledge of Zionism. You're still wrong in suggesting that Zionism is grounded in biblical prophecy or religious perspectives of territory, copying-and-pasting things from anti-semitic websites doesn't change anything,

You've even said in one of your posts that it is grounded in biblical prophecy. Or are you now ignoring your own posts?

Zionism is the Jewish national movement of rebirth and renewal in the land of Israel - the historical birthplace of the Jewish people. The yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the Land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been the cornerstone of Jewish religious life since the Jewish exile from the land two thousand years ago, and is embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture.

This is a copy past from one of your very own posts. Don't deny it !!!

Your implication with the source "Jews Against Zionism" seems to be a suggestion that a Jewish person can't be anti-semitic. Again, you excel with stupidity.

Self-hating Jews I guess ..

[Oleg Bach]

When the region was a one state entity - prior to the invasion..it was functional - now that the Jews have settled in - it would probably be progressive it they went back to a ONE state solution --at present there is a two state situation and it is not working.

[sharkman]

Im the aethist son of a boer and a jew.

You know, you've revealed much about your childhood, family life and how you feel about your parents with that one comment. But I was simply pondering if we have any Muslims in our midst, not the make up of their families.

[sharkman]

When the region was a one state entity - prior to the invasion..it was functional - now that the Jews have settled in - it would probably be progressive it they went back to a ONE state solution --at present there is a two state situation and it is not working.

And who do you think was pushing for the 2 state solution? And who benefits from the resulting friction, Israel or Palestine's handlers?

[Oleg Bach]

You know, you've revealed much about your childhood, family life and how you feel about your parents with that one comment. But I was simply pondering if we have any Muslims in our midst, not the make up of their families.

BOY - a nordic spawn of a Dutch south african and a jew -- no wonder the guy is an atheist - that would be enough to break my spirit having two arch ememies living inside of me tradtiionally and genetically.

[dre]

You know, you've revealed much about your childhood, family life and how you feel about your parents with that one comment. But I was simply pondering if we have any Muslims in our midst, not the make up of their families.

Actually I didnt reveal much at all. And my family life is really just that of a typical Canadian.

[dre]

BOY - a nordic spawn of a Dutch south african and a jew -- no wonder the guy is an atheist - that would be enough to break my spirit having two arch ememies living inside of me tradtiionally and genetically.

[sharkman]

Actually I didnt reveal much at all. And my family life is really just that of a typical Canadian.

Of course you don't think so, or you would have used more discretion.

[dre]

Of course you don't think so, or you would have used more discretion.

Discretion? Why? I have nothing to hide, and I'm proud of my parents and who they are.

[sharkman]

Huh? Defending your parents when no slight was made against them? Good for you. Tell me more...

Edited June 18, 2010 by sharkman

[dre]

Huh? Defending your parents when no slight was made against them? Good for you. Tell me more...

I never said a slight was made against them. I simply pointed out I have no reason to be discrete as you suggested. Why should I be discrete?

[Bonam]

I never said a slight was made against them. I simply pointed out I have no reason to be discrete as you suggested. Why should I be discrete?

Cause having a Jewish parent will get you killed if the poor Palestinians for whom you advocate ever have their way...

[sharkman]

I never said a slight was made against them. I simply pointed out I have no reason to be discrete as you suggested. Why should I be discrete?

So, tell me how you feel towards your mother.

[dre]

So, tell me how you feel towards your mother.

I already alluded to that.... probably about the same as you. Why dont you stop fucking around and get to the point of this line of questioning? What exactly were you expecting me to say? That I resent her because shes an ethnic jew? Why on earth would I do that?

Youre quite a funny little guy...

Edited June 18, 2010 by dre

[myata]

Well here's another factual evidence that concerted, objective and persistent attention by international community can bring real, positive results: BBC: Israel to allow civilian goods in Gaza

If will work in establishing approaching to lasting settlement in the same way as it's working in blockade of Gaza. If we maintain objective fact based view of situation, reacting in force to any act of hostility and aggression, discarding all default excuses or stamped justifications and allowing nobody be beyond scrutiny or law.

[bush_cheney2004]

..... reacting in force to any act of hostility and aggression, discarding all default excuses or stamped justifications and allowing nobody be beyond scrutiny or law.

Reacting "in force" with whose resources? Don't write checks that you can't cash.

[myata]

We can attempt to start only with the resources of keeping the events in focus, maintaining factual, impartial view of the situation and reacting based on objective evidence whenever an event requiring reaction (see earlier) has occured. Over time if not solving the conflict completely (as it did in South Africa) this approact will bring everybody a long way toward its resolution. As evidenced by this one fact. As well as lack of any visible progress in the "default alliance" mode, that cannot contribute to solving anything for the obvious logical reason that it only encourages hostile behaviour of the side that enjoys default support (and assistence; and cover up).

[bush_cheney2004]

We can attempt to start only with the resources of keeping the events in focus, maintaining factual, impartial view of the situation and reacting based on objective evidence....

Yet you said "reacting in force"? What does this mean? What kind of "force"....internet blogs?