Myth of the two-state solution.

[Bob]

Of course it's bigger than that, and Bob could come up with plenty of names.

The point, which frankly couldn't have been much more clear, is that Bob says we are disagreeing with him about the use of the "anti-semite" label because we aren't Jews and can't understand (even though some of those who disagree with him ARE Jews, which sort of shatters that); I responded by informing him there are many well-known Jews who absolutely would agree with me, and disagree with him...

Meaning that his assertion is wrong by definition.

Having a connection to Judaism doesn't inherently make someone knowledgeable about anti-semitism and Israeli issues. What is true, however, is that NOT being Jewish and not having a stake in these issues makes one much less likely (due to a lack of motivation) to do the research necessary to understand them. Plain and simple. Finkelstein being the son of Holocaust survivors doesn't give him carte-blanche to advance his anti-Israel positions and paint the Arabs as victims.

[dre]

Even growing up in Canada I've been assaulted three times by other students in high school because I was Jewish. Guess what? The attackers were always Muslims. That's just one anecdote, but please spare me your assertion that anti-semitism isn't alive and well. It's right here in this very forum masking itself in the form of criticism of Israel and anti-Zionism.

After reading some of your shit, it doesnt suprise me at all that you would be assaulted. Let me guess, were you describing palestinians as a "disease" shortly before these incidents or advocating ethnic cleansing?

Did you ever consider that maybe these guys beat you up because your a bombastic loud-mouthed clown that things he knows everything and thinks that everyone else knows nothing?

[bloodyminded]

Having a connection to Judaism doesn't inherently make someone knowledgeable about anti-semitism and Israeli issues. What is true, however, is that NOT being Jewish and not having a stake in these issues makes one much less likely (due to a lack of motivation) to do the research necessary to understand them. Plain and simple. Finkelstein being the son of Holocaust survivors doesn't give him carte-blanche to advance his anti-Israel positions and paint the Arabs as victims.

no it doesn't; that's my point, actually: that you have relations to survivors and or murder victims--like Finkelstein does--doesn't give you carte-blanche to run around accusing everybody of antisemitism like a maniac.

[Bob]

Why are they "fringe Jews"? Because they disagree with Bob the anonymous internet poster, who I assume must symbolize the apex of Jewish life and culture?

Noam Chomsky is arguably the single most well-known political dissident on Earth. Hardly "fringe." Uri Avnery is well-known too, and was once directly involved at high levels of Israeli political power...which suggests some insider knowledge, not to put to fine a point on it.

But finally, and most of all, Raul Hilberg...a "fringe Jew"?

Hilberg invented the field of Holocaust Studies!

If it weren't for him, it's quite possible we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now!

I don't think you have any radar for antisemitism at all. Zero. You see it where it doesn't exist...even as you vomit racist epithets about the Palestinians.

Aside from Hilberg, who can't be put in the same category as blatantly anti-Israel folks like Finkelstein, Avnery, and Chomsky, they are all fringe Jews. I'm not familiar with Hilberg's positions on the Israeli-Arab conflict, but I'm quite certain they are not in line with the fringe opinions of the other three Jews in your basket. They are most certainly fringe Jews with respect to their positions on the Israeli-Arab conflict.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Bob

[dre]

With all due respect, I'm quite sure I have a much better radar for anti-semitism than you, and it's quite clear what you seek to defend all criticism of Israel, no matter how absurd and blatantly anti-semitic.

With all dew respect you dont even know the basic definition of the word. You think anti-semtitism and anti-zionism are the same thing And you think critisism of modern nation states and anti-semetism are the same thing.

And then after geting this wrong over and over again... you continue with obvious logical fallacy (argumentum ad vericundium).

[Bob]

no it doesn't; that's my point, actually: that you have relations to survivors and or murder victims--like Finkelstein does--doesn't give you carte-blanche to run around accusing everybody of antisemitism like a maniac.

I'm not accusing everyone of anti-semitism. What I said very clearly was that anti-semitism is a major component of virtually all anti-Israel movements, and that it's widespread among Israel's enemies, particularly in the Arab and Muslim world.

I also equated anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. Look, if you're opposed to anti-Zionism you're opposed to Jewish self-determination, that is unequivocally anti-semitic. Do I even need to mention centuries of persecution of Jews which needs to be addressed in the form of a physical state. As has been evidenced by the world many times (the Holocaust, most notably), the world will never come to save Jews in trouble, outside of some exceptions.

It's not up for debate.

[dre]

I'm not accusing everyone of anti-semitism. What I said very clearly was that anti-semitism is a major component of virtually all anti-Israel movements, and that it's widespread among Israel's enemies, particularly in the Arab and Muslim world.

I also equated anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. Look, if you're opposed to anti-Zionism you're opposed to Jewish self-determination, that is unequivocally anti-semitic. Do I even need to mention centuries of persecution of Jews which needs to be addressed in the form of a physical state. As has been evidenced by the world many times (the Holocaust, most notably), the world will never come to save Jews in trouble, outside of some exceptions.

It's not up for debate.

I also equated anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. Look, if you're opposed to anti-Zionism you're opposed to Jewish self-determination, that is unequivocally anti-semitic.

No sorry, wrong once again. You can be opposed to zionism (the idea that Jews have a biblical right to a certain piece of land) without being anti-semetic, and many people are. Youre also wrong in your claim that zionism is merely a reaction to the persecution of jews.

Heres another one of the Ben quotes you like so much...

For many of us, anti-Semitic feeling had little to do with our dedication [to Zionism]. I personally never suffered anti-Semitic persecution. Plonsk was remarkably free of it ... Nevertheless, and I think this very significant, it was Plonsk that sent the highest proportion of Jews to Eretz Israel from any town in Poland of comparable size. We emigrated not for negative reasons of escape but for the positive purpose of rebuilding a homeland ... Life in Plonsk was peaceful enough.

The fact is that a lot of the jews that went to Israel didnt go there to escape anti semetism, nor was the zionist movement about that.

So while anti-zionism COULD be rooted in anti-semetism, it doesnt have to be, and it often isnt, and you certainly cant equate the two.

Edited June 17, 2010 by dre

[Guest TrueMetis]

Do I even need to mention centuries of persecution of Jews which needs to be addressed in the form of a physical state. As has been evidenced by the world many times (the Holocaust, most notably), the world will never come to save Jews in trouble, outside of some exceptions.

It's not up for debate.

I would like you to mention them actually, I hear this claim all the time but no one ever seems to bring up any examples other than the Holocaust.

[Bob]

Zionism isn't about a biblical right to a piece of land. Do some real research. You know very little about Zionism and it's evolution over time. It was absolutely founded as a "solution" to anti-semitism. Herzl felt that anti-semitism was an unstoppable component of the world (history proves that he's right), and that Jews needed autonomy and security from persecution in a state. Eventually, the land of Israel was decided upon.

If you're opposed to Zionism, you're opposed to Jewish self-determination, as we know Jews cannot have guaranteed self-determination without a state - the history of brutal anti-Zionism around the world isn't hard to study up on. Only if one rejects Jewish identity can one be opposed to Zionism, taking the perspective that a country cannot be both Jewish and moral and fair. Only if you have a problem with Judaism can you opposed to a Jewish state. Certainly many anti-Zionists are opposed to all nationalistic movement, in which they are equal opportunity bigots. Jewishness is not something that is contrary to the values of a free society. It is entirely compatible with liberal democratic values, and this is illustrated in Israel. You could easily have a Christian country rooted in the values of a liberal democracy, as well.

[bloodyminded]

I'm not accusing everyone of anti-semitism. What I said very clearly was that anti-semitism is a major component of virtually all anti-Israel movements,

Your word was "most," and you;ve used it multiple times...so unless you've had a revelation in the last day or so, that remains your view. "Most" activists and critics of Israel are antisemites.

I also equated anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. Look, if you're opposed to anti-Zionism you're opposed to Jewish self-determination, that is unequivocally anti-semitic.

While I have serious doubts about this, that's as far as my disagreement goes on this point; I have taken my ignorance about Zionism as a motivator not to talk about it.

I've not said a word about Zionism...not one, ever. (Well...except for right here, in this actual post.....that's it.)

Edited June 17, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

I would like you to mention them actually, I hear this claim all the time but no one ever seems to bring up any examples other than the Holocaust.

Are you serious? You've never heard of the Spanish Inquisition? The pogroms in Russia? Discrimination against Jews in the Soviet Union? "Dhimmi" status when living under Islamic rule in the Ottoman Empire? Murders and assaults against Jews in pre-Israel Palestine? How about nearly ten wars Israel has fought with Arabs sworn to its destruction since its inception, and thousands of Jews murdered by terrorism during this time? The world at large never made a serious move to assist Jews (outside of American resupplying of Jewish arms in '56) in peril.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Bob

[sharkman]

Even growing up in Canada I've been assaulted three times by other students in high school because I was Jewish. Guess what? The attackers were always Muslims. That's just one anecdote, but please spare me your assertion that anti-semitism isn't alive and well. It's right here in this very forum masking itself in the form of criticism of Israel and anti-Zionism.

You know, Bob, I can't help but wonder how many of the Israel critics on this forum are Muslims. It would explain their anti-semitism, and their overly loud protestations at the word.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Are you serious? You've never heard of the Spanish Inquisition?

Wasn't specifically against jews.

The pogroms in Russia?

Yep.

Discrimination against Jews in the Soviet Union?

The Soviet Union did things like that to everyone.

"Dhimmi" status when living under Islamic rule in the Ottoman Empire?

That's something they did to all non-muslims. And considering the time was actually incredibly enlightened.

Murders and assaults against Jews in pre-Israel Palestine?

Got another one, though for hundreds of years the Jews living there were left alone and there were a lot of Arabs killed during that time as well. I'll give that to you though.

How about nearly ten wars Israel has fought with Arabs sworn to its destruction since its inception, and thousands of Jews murdered by terrorism during this time?

And number 3. Though last time I checked Israel won those wars, rather easily.

The world at large never made a serious move to assist Jews (outside of American resupplying of Jewish arms in '56) in peril.

Maybe because like me there unable to see where the jews are in peril, at least relative to other peoples. There are plenty of other groups in more danger than jews IMO.

Edited June 17, 2010 by TrueMetis

[dre]

Zionism isn't about a biblical right to a piece of land. Do some real research. You know very little about Zionism and it's evolution over time. It was absolutely founded as a "solution" to anti-semitism. Herzl felt that anti-semitism was an unstoppable component of the world (history proves that he's right), and that Jews needed autonomy and security from persecution in a state. Eventually, the land of Israel was decided upon.

If you're opposed to Zionism, you're opposed to Jewish self-determination, as we know Jews cannot have guaranteed self-determination without a state - the history of brutal anti-Zionism around the world isn't hard to study up on. Only if one rejects Jewish identity can one be opposed to Zionism, taking the perspective that a country cannot be both Jewish and moral and fair. Only if you have a problem with Judaism can you opposed to a Jewish state. Certainly many anti-Zionists are opposed to all nationalistic movement, in which they are equal opportunity bigots. Jewishness is not something that is contrary to the values of a free society. It is entirely compatible with liberal democratic values, and this is illustrated in Israel. You could easily have a Christian country rooted in the values of a liberal democracy, as well.

A reaction to antisemetism is one component, but its not the only one. And its YOU that needs to do some research as usual.

Zionism is the Jewish national movement of rebirth and renewal in the land of Israel - the historical birthplace of the Jewish people. The yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the Land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been the cornerstone of Jewish religious life since the Jewish exile from the land two thousand years ago, and is embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture.

The driving force behind zionism is to establish a Jewish homeland that has been there ever since jews were exiled. Its all about jews having a state on their biblical homeland.

Disputing a certain groups ownership or right to a certain piece of realestate doesnt necessarily have anything to do with any dislike of that group...it COULD.. but thats not necessarily the case.

I cant believe you cant see through the obviously logical fallacy youre expousing. It seems like your mind is so clouded with bitterness and hatred, and victim-mentality that you are unable to grasp even basic logic and reason.

Edited June 17, 2010 by dre

[Bob]

TrueMetis - Can you make your attempts to trivialize the history of Jewish persecution around the world any more obvious? Are you disputing that the Jewish experience in contemporary history isn't one of extreme persecution?

Israel lost 10% of its population in the War of Independence. It lost a thousand soldiers in the Six-Day War (thousands more injured). It lost three thousand people (thousands more injured) in the Yom Kippur War. I guess that's an "easy" victory. Not enough dead Jews, according to you?

[sharkman]

Like I say Bob, I wonder how many of the posters around here are Muslims, which would explain the intense interest in Jews.

[Guest TrueMetis]

TrueMetis - Can you make your attempts to trivialize the history of Jewish persecution around the world any more obvious?

No.

Are you disputing that the Jewish experience in contemporary history isn't one of extreme persecution?

Compared to the rest of the world? Yes.

Israel lost 10% of its population in the War of Independence. It lost a thousand soldiers in the Six-Day War (thousands more injured). It lost three thousand people (thousands more injured) in the Yom Kippur War. I guess that's an "easy" victory. Not enough dead Jews, according to you?

And? What's you point? People die in war? These number are in line with most wars.

Edited June 17, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Bob]

Like I say Bob, I wonder how many of the posters around here are Muslims, which would explain the intense interest in Jews.

I was under the impression that we didn't have any Muslims in here. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? Do we have any Muslim participants? I'd like to get their opinion(s) on some things.

[dre]

Like I say Bob, I wonder how many of the posters around here are Muslims, which would explain the intense interest in Jews.

DDDDUHHHH. I dunno! I wonder how many Albanian sheppards are allergic to wool?

[sharkman]

DDDDUHHHH. I dunno! I wonder how many Albanian sheppards are allergic to wool?

So you figure there are some too?

[dre]

I was under the impression that we didn't have any Muslims in here. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? Do we have any Muslim participants? I'd like to get their opinion(s) on some things.

Im the aethist son of a boer and a jew.

[dre]

Are you serious? You've never heard of the Spanish Inquisition? The pogroms in Russia? Discrimination against Jews in the Soviet Union? "Dhimmi" status when living under Islamic rule in the Ottoman Empire? Murders and assaults against Jews in pre-Israel Palestine? How about nearly ten wars Israel has fought with Arabs sworn to its destruction since its inception, and thousands of Jews murdered by terrorism during this time? The world at large never made a serious move to assist Jews (outside of American resupplying of Jewish arms in '56) in peril.

The problem of course is that zionism is rooted in events that happened thousands of years before most of those things. Its the modern manifestation of the desire of many jews to return to the biblical homeland they were exiled from 2000 years ago.

[Bob]

The problem of course is that zionism is rooted in events that happened thousands of years before most of those things. Its the modern manifestation of the desire of many jews to return to the biblical homeland they were exiled from 2000 years ago.

No it isn't. Zionism is a contemporary movement primarily rooted in the Jewish experience of persecution in Europe, and isn't connected to ancient Jewish persecution. It has little to nothing to do with biblical prophecy. Herzl and many early Zionists weren't particularly religious, and formed Zionism as a primarily irreligious nationalist movement.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Bob

[dre]

No it isn't. Zionism is a contemporary movement primarily rooted in the Jewish experience of persecution in Europe, and isn't connected to ancient Jewish persecution. It has little to nothing to do with biblical prophecy. Herzl and many early Zionists weren't particularly religious, and formed Zionism as a primarily irreligious nationalist movement.

[dre]

Nope, youre still partly wrong. This sums it up pretty nicely.

Zionism is the Jewish national movement of rebirth and renewal in the land of Israel - the historical birthplace of the Jewish people. The yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the Land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been the cornerstone of Jewish religious life since the Jewish exile from the land two thousand years ago, and is embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture.

Modern Zionism emerged in the late 19th century in response to the violent persecution of Jews in Eastern Europe, anti-Semitism in Western Europe. Modern Zionism fused the ancient Jewish biblical and historical ties to the ancestral homeland with the modern concept of nationalism into a vision of establishing a modern Jewish state in the land of Israel.

Like I tried to explain to you before both of those things are components. Youre simply choosing to ignore the definition that doesnt fit your argument.

In either case though a person could be against zionism without being anti-semetic. Like these jews do http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm, and many other people do.