Myth of the two-state solution.

[sharkman]

I say whatever the fuck I want, wherever the fuck I want to say it...

You certainly do, but sometimes, less is more.

[Remiel]

Spare me the false quotes from anti-semitic websites. You are a really fucked up person. Ben-Gurion never said such a thing. Keep spewing your anti-semitism from behind the security of your computer.

You know, being rather critical, at least at times, I thought perhaps I should look for the source of the quote to see for myself if you were right...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

You can find it in there...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Gilbert

Attributed to Ben-Gurion by this guy.

What do you know of Martin Gilbert?

[dre]

You know, being rather critical, at least at times, I thought perhaps I should look for the source of the quote to see for myself if you were right...

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

You can find it in there...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Gilbert

Attributed to Ben-Gurion by this guy.

What do you know of Martin Gilbert?

Actually you can find references to that quote all over the place.

For what its worth I dont really have a problem with the Zionist movement. I dont see anything inherently wrong with a sect of Jews wanting to return to the holy land. I dont have a problem with the State of Israel or its existance either. I think it will exist forever, and if it ever faced a real credible threat to its existance Id want my government to aid in its defense.

Im just pointing these things out to expose some of the absurdly simplistic logic fallacy being thrown around by Bob and his hilarious assertions that if you oppose zionism or some of the actions of Israel that makes you a racist.

Plus the guy makes it kinda fun... Love his veiled threat about how Im lucky to be hiding behind my keyboard! The internet is always good for a pile of laughs when that kinda stuff starts coming out

[Remiel]

Actually you can find references to that quote all over the place.

For what its worth I dont really have a problem with the Zionist movement. I dont see anything inherently wrong with a sect of Jews wanting to return to the holy land. I dont have a problem with the State of Israel or its existance either. I think it will exist forever, and if it ever faced a real credible threat to its existance Id want my government to aid in its defense.

Im just pointing these things out to expose some of the absurdly simplistic logic fallacy being thrown around by Bob and his hilarious assertions that if you oppose zionism or some of the actions of Israel that makes you a racist.

Plus the guy makes it kinda fun... Love his veiled threat about how Im lucky to be hiding behind my keyboard! The internet is always good for a pile of laughs when that kinda stuff starts coming out

Well, I suppose that is alright if you are able to see the humour in something... But, personally I do not find the hijacking of a term that should reserved for practices that are movingly despicable to be funny, in any way. Just tragic, and maybe vile.

[bloodyminded]

What I said was that I believe the majority of activists on the flotilla, and the types of people that take part in those things, are anti-semitic. I stand by that position, as that's what I've seen.

I know that's what you've said, repeatedly, and i believe that you stand by that position.

The primary problem with your position is that it's flatly untrue. When you assert that everyone (or, as you coyly amend, almost everyone) who disagrees with you on these matters does so because they're Jew-haters, you have effectively declared all debates over; you even said, of the flotilla, that there was "no controversy"...when it is one of the most controversial issues that has been discussed lately. What your "nearly everyone is an anti-semite" stance allows you is a soothing balm of sanctimony; but more importantly, it allows you to think that there is no debate; that whatever people who disagree with you might say, they are automatically untrustworthy. No matter what the facts might be. Because most of them are arguing only from their bigotry towards the Jews. Why pay attention to what a bunch of antisemites have to say?

I strongly suggest you make an effort to veer off from this type of coward's road. It's open, even proud fanaticism to insist upon it the way you have been doing.

Edited June 17, 2010 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

Yeah, and you defended yourself by saying you only average 2 posts a day, which is a denial mechanism. I haven't even gotten into the content of your posts yet, but what you are doing is not normal. And your tirades against this tiny little country are certainly not normal since there is so many of them. So what's the deal, really?

Are you going to waste all your time obssessing over Naomiglover's posting history?

Why does her interest in Israel so exercise you? What is it about Israel?

Let's look at other poster:

You could say: bloodyminded is "obssessed" with posting about horror movies, and about Western hypocrisy regarding issues like terrorism. (I plead Guilty!)

Toadbrother is "obssessed" with posting about Parliamentary history and protocol.

Shady is "obssessed" with how bad the Democrats are.

Punk'd is "obssessed" with how bad the Republicans are.

Bush-Cheney2004 is "obssessed" with American superiority over Canadians.

August is "obssessed" with the Left.

DogonPorch is "obssessed" with Islam.

Sharkman is "obssessed" with the evils of any poster who isn't on the political Right.

However, only Naomiglover's posting tendencies are of note to you....because, Godzilla forbid, she is criticizing Israel; and anyone who criticizes Israel (also known as "Jesus" to Christians) must have a screw loose.

Edited June 17, 2010 by bloodyminded

[GostHacked]

Bob.

So, even thought I have no issues with Jews as individuals, I do have a problem with their leadership, so you've labeled me anti-semite. I am glad that your views, Bob are not the views of all Jews or even the majority of them. If all Jews had your view, then you would see me become an anti-semite for sure.

[myata]

So, even thought I have no issues with Jews as individuals, I do have a problem with their leadership, so you've labeled me anti-semite. I am glad that your views, Bob are not the views of all Jews or even the majority of them. If all Jews had your view, then you would see me become an anti-semite for sure.

I'm not sure how much can be found in reexaminations of various nuances of the "anti" terminology. Clearly it's been used as a prefabricated label to dissmiss facts and views that contradict the doctrine, offhand and without any rational argumentation.

As such the strategy is pure propaganda having no relation to intelligent disputing or searching for solutions. It'll play its tune for as long as the battery runs and the only response I could think of is to filter it out like an annoying commercial.

[Bob]

Well, I suppose that is alright if you are able to see the humour in something... But, personally I do not find the hijacking of a term that should reserved for practices that are movingly despicable to be funny, in any way. Just tragic, and maybe vile.

Spare me your feigned outrage. Anti-semitism means nothing to you. Your family wasn't prevented from living in certain communities, entering most universities, or barred from any professions because they were Jewish. Your family didn't get incarcerated because they were seen as disloyal because of their Jewishness of Zionistic leanings. Your family didn't have its possessions and property taken from them because they were Jewish. None of your family was murdered in the Holocaust for being Jewish. None of your family has been injured or murdered in Israel because they were Jewish. Anti-semitism means nothing to you - stop pretending the term is trivialized when it was trivial for you to begin with. To you, anti-semitism has been and always will be words on a page, and have no meaning. Get off your soapbox, you're fooling nobody.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Bob

[Bob]

I'm not sure how much can be found in reexaminations of various nuances of the "anti" terminology. Clearly it's been used as a prefabricated label to dissmiss facts and views that contradict the doctrine, offhand and without any rational argumentation.

As such the strategy is pure propaganda having no relation to intelligent disputing or searching for solutions. It'll play its tune for as long as the battery runs and the only response I could think of is to filter it out like an annoying commercial.

Yes yes, of course there is no overlap between the anti-semitism of the Islamic and Arabic worlds and their animosity towards Israel. Certainly no connection whatsoever. Jews weren't being murdered before 1967 in Israel and pre-Israel Palestine because they were Jewish, all the hostilities began AFTER 1967 as a legitimate resistance to occupation. Case closed.

[Remiel]

Spare me your feigned outrage. Anti-semitism means nothing to you. Your family wasn't prevented from living in certain communities, entering most universities, or barred from any professions because they were Jewish. Your family didn't get incarcerated because they were seen as disloyal because of their Jewishness of Zionistic leanings. Your family didn't have its possessions and property taken from them because they were Jewish. None of your family was murdered in the Holocaust for being Jewish. None of your family has been injured or murdered in Israel because they were Jewish. Anti-semitism means nothing to you - stop pretending the term is trivialized when it was trivial for you to begin with. To you, anti-semitism has been and always will be words on a page, and have no meaning. Get off your soapbox, you're fooling nobody.

You listen and you listen damn well: You have no fucking idea what I feel about anti-Semitism, or how it has wounded my family. I may not have a drop of Jewish blood in me, but I have family that does, and do not try for a GOD DAMNED SECOND to try to tell me that what has happened my family, the ones who are Jewish, does not matter to ME!

Edited June 17, 2010 by Remiel

[bloodyminded]

Spare me your feigned outrage. Anti-semitism means nothing to you. Your family wasn't prevented from living in certain communities, entering most universities, or barred from any professions because they were Jewish. Your family didn't get incarcerated because they were seen as disloyal because of their Jewishness of Zionistic leanings. Your family didn't have its possessions and property taken from them because they were Jewish. None of your family was murdered in the Holocaust for being Jewish. None of your family has been injured or murdered in Israel because they were Jewish. Anti-semitism means nothing to you - stop pretending the term is trivialized when it was trivial for you to begin with. To you, anti-semitism has been and always will be words on a page, and have no meaning. Get off your soapbox, you're fooling nobody.

Raul Hilberg, Norm Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Uri Avnery, and many, many more have had very intimate associations with this worst of the century's nightmares. And yet they would disagree with you, absolutely, and completely agree with us. So I'm afraid the special pleading isn't going to work.

[sharkman]

You listen and you listen damn well: You have no fucking idea what I feel about anti-Semitism, or how it has wounded my family. I may not have a drop of Jewish blood in me, but I have family that does, and do not try for a GOD DAMNED SECOND to try to tell me that what has happened my family, the ones who are Jewish, does not to ME!

Good grief you whiny little child. If you can't deal with certain subjects without freaking out maybe you should bug off.

[sharkman]

Raul Hilberg, Norm Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Uri Avnery, and many, many more have had very intimate associations with this worst of the century's nightmares. And yet they would disagree with you, absolutely, and completely agree with us. So I'm afraid the special pleading isn't going to work.

So the side who can come up with the most names wins? It's bigger than that.

[dre]

Good grief you whiny little child. If you can't deal with certain subjects without freaking out maybe you should bug off.

Funny you dont say that during any of Bobbies little spazmatic wretching episodes.

[dre]

Yes yes, of course there is no overlap between the anti-semitism of the Islamic and Arabic worlds and their animosity towards Israel. Certainly no connection whatsoever. Jews weren't being murdered before 1967 in Israel and pre-Israel Palestine because they were Jewish, all the hostilities began AFTER 1967 as a legitimate resistance to occupation. Case closed.

Dude just give it up. You dont even know the literal meaning of "anti-semetism" and you know almost nothing about the zionist movement either.

All you do is dance around screaming "IM A VICTIM!!!".

[myata]

Yes yes, of course there is no overlap between the anti-semitism of the Islamic and Arabic worlds and their animosity towards Israel. Certainly no connection whatsoever.

I said no such thing which means that you just have to prove it. That the animosity is caused predominantly by anti-semitism and not e.g. by Israel's (or pre-Israel) own act. I thought you should be getting the idea by now, none of these default one size fits all justifications and/or excuses is going to work here.

Edited June 17, 2010 by myata

[sharkman]

Funny you dont say that during any of Bobbies little spazmatic wretching episodes.

Which reminds me, I've never said it about any of yours either.

[Bob]

Raul Hilberg, Norm Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Uri Avnery, and many, many more have had very intimate associations with this worst of the century's nightmares. And yet they would disagree with you, absolutely, and completely agree with us. So I'm afraid the special pleading isn't going to work.

So you list fringe Jews (Finkelstein being an atheist and a communist) to add Jew-credibility to your false assertion that I'm using the term "anti-semitic" inappropriately? With all due respect, I'm quite sure I have a much better radar for anti-semitism than you, and it's quite clear what you seek to defend all criticism of Israel, no matter how absurd and blatantly anti-semitic.

When the violent agitators on the Mavi Marmara prayed together as they psyched themselves up before "battling the Jews", you didn't see anti-semitism. When the message to the Israeli navy was "go back to Auschwitz" and "remember 9/11", you didn't see anti-semitism. When terrorists who openly state their hatred of Jews are celebrated and defended by "peace activists", you don't see anti-semitism.

I know what these "peace groups" are all about. I know they are opposed to Jewish self-determination (inseparable from a Jewish state). I've been to anti-Israel rallies and seen the hateful rhetoric that is the norm, not the exception. I see the anti-semitism all over the internet, and not just on openly anti-semitic websites.

Like I said, you're so ignorant and hate-filled you're beyond help. You refuse to see the things the way they are in order to maintain your dishonesty.

[dre]

Spare me your feigned outrage. Anti-semitism means nothing to you. Your family wasn't prevented from living in certain communities, entering most universities, or barred from any professions because they were Jewish. Your family didn't get incarcerated because they were seen as disloyal because of their Jewishness of Zionistic leanings. Your family didn't have its possessions and property taken from them because they were Jewish. None of your family was murdered in the Holocaust for being Jewish. None of your family has been injured or murdered in Israel because they were Jewish. Anti-semitism means nothing to you - stop pretending the term is trivialized when it was trivial for you to begin with. To you, anti-semitism has been and always will be words on a page, and have no meaning. Get off your soapbox, you're fooling nobody.

Complaints about feigned outrage coming from YOU!??? Are you kidding yourself?

And then followed up by a whole post about what a victim you are

Why dont you at least do some elementary research about anti-semetism, and anti-zionism before you go on these hilarious rants?

Edited June 17, 2010 by dre

[Remiel]

Good grief you whiny little child. If you can't deal with certain subjects without freaking out maybe you should bug off.

For a person who whines a lot about absolutes of morality, you sure as hell do not understand why for him to suggest I do not care about my family is such an absolute insult of a most serious kind.

[bloodyminded]

So the side who can come up with the most names wins? It's bigger than that.

Of course it's bigger than that, and Bob could come up with plenty of names.

The point, which frankly couldn't have been much more clear, is that Bob says we are disagreeing with him about the use of the "anti-semite" label because we aren't Jews and can't understand (even though some of those who disagree with him ARE Jews, which sort of shatters that); I responded by informing him there are many well-known Jews who absolutely would agree with me, and disagree with him...

Meaning that his assertion is wrong by definition.

[Bob]

Even growing up in Canada I've been assaulted three times by other students in high school because I was Jewish. Guess what? The attackers were always Muslims. That's just one anecdote, but please spare me your assertion that anti-semitism isn't alive and well. It's right here in this very forum masking itself in the form of criticism of Israel and anti-Zionism.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Bob

[dre]

Which reminds me, I've never said it about any of yours either.

Well there was the "less is more" thing

[bloodyminded]

So you list fringe Jews (Finkelstein being an atheist and a communist) to add Jew-credibility to your false assertion that I'm using the term "anti-semitic" inappropriately?

Why are they "fringe Jews"? Because they disagree with Bob the anonymous internet poster, who I assume must symbolize the apex of Jewish life and culture?

Noam Chomsky is arguably the single most well-known political dissident on Earth. Hardly "fringe." Uri Avnery is well-known too, and was once directly involved at high levels of Israeli political power...which suggests some insider knowledge, not to put to fine a point on it.

But finally, and most of all, Raul Hilberg...a "fringe Jew"?

Hilberg invented the field of Holocaust Studies!

If it weren't for him, it's quite possible we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now!

With all due respect, I'm quite sure I have a much better radar for anti-semitism than you, and it's quite clear what you seek to defend all criticism of Israel, no matter how absurd and blatantly anti-semitic.

I don't think you have any radar for antisemitism at all. Zero. You see it where it doesn't exist...even as you vomit racist epithets about the Palestinians.

Edited June 17, 2010 by bloodyminded