$9 Billion No-Bid Contract for 65 F-35s

[Alta4ever]

My point again is where in Canada is an arrester hook needed in Canada that isn't for training?

That was answered for many posts ago our forward operating bases requiring arresting wire.

[Alta4ever]

Thats not what I said at all.

But the reality is that when youre flat broke chances are youre not going to be able to afford insurance against every possible negative consequence under the sun. Its just not possible. Sometimes you just cant have everything you want, and you need make do with only the bare necessities. Thats the position we are in now.

Canadians face a larger threat from DEFECIT SPENDING than we do from foreign migs.

So we should be frugal. Most of our operations (flying patrols over our own airspace and shooting down rogue airliners) can be done with much cheaper planes. So maybe we should buy 20 of these F35's, and 50 GEN4.5 planes for these other tasks... I dunno. But we should be as cheap and frugal as possible.

You do realize that if we can't assert our arctic sovereignty we are going to loose that territory. Right now all we have that can effectively patrol it with is our airforce.

[dre]

Funny but other countries manage to do it, countries we depend upon for our security.

Yeah, and those other countries are in a lot of trouble for it now, and almost all of them have realized its not sustainable.

[Moonbox]

Yeah, and those other countries are in a lot of trouble for it now, and almost all of them have realized its not sustainable.

Yes...that's why they're all buying even more F-35's than we are...

There are a lot of other places we could be saving money...like special interest group funding, bailing out pension plans for overpaid workers, government jobs etc that don't involve castrating our armed forces and sending them out to fight with junk.

[Wilber]

Yeah, and those other countries are in a lot of trouble for it now, and almost all of them have realized its not sustainable.

All the more reason for good planning when it comes to systematically updating our military and then sticking with the plan regardless of the economic conditions. Like dollar cost averaging in investing, spread your costs out instead of "holy shit I need everything" once every three decades. There will always be those who put it at the bottom of the list with the result that we will always end up paying more when we can least afford it and being cheap is no longer an option.

[Wilber]

Good one DoP. I like this one even better.

[wyly]

The more types you have, the higher your operating costs. Just ask any airline exec. Why do you think WestJet and Southwest only operate one type of aircraft?

ya ask any airline exec why they don't use jumbo's on short haul hops or on regional routes...use the proper airplane for the job, distance, fuel, load...since west jet doen't do long haul flights they have no need other types of planes...

[wyly]

You guys miss the point entirely. We are a nation of 35 million sitting on the second largest land mass of any country in the world, two thirds of it are surrounded by oceans. There is absolutely no way we can defend this country on our own. We must have allies to do so. Being an ally is a two way street. If you don't have anything useful to offer your allies, you are nothing more than a freeloader.

I'm continually amazed by people who brag about this country being so great but are so grudging when it comes to ensuring its security..

and who protects all those other countries that are never attacked or invaded?...who's afraid of things that go bump in the night? apparently canadian conservatives...

[wyly]

We need a fighter that fits our needs for the projected next 30 years, I agree, but those needs aren't fighting a major war with China. Furthermore, the notion that 65 F-35s vs 35 Typhoons would make more than a pin prick of a difference in such a conflict is laughable.

we will make absolutely no difference in a conflict we're worthless militarily...any foe that we need these planes for are nuclear powers and any conflict would escalate to a point where all aircraft are redundant...we're little kids strutting around with a big gun pretending to be as big and tough as the big guys, we're small flea that could be brushed aside by any serious opponent if they wished...by why would they want to? it's bad for business, China and Russia are interested in making money not war, China can buy(and has) our oilfields why go to war for it? ...but fighters appeals to gun stroking conservatives so buying votes is what it's all about...the conservatives are going to spend 16 billion (probably more) for the redneck vote...

Indeed, shouldn't we be at least warry of the purchase? Most people are acting as though nothing can touch this bloody thing, yet in the defense weekly article it said that the US and Lockheed were incredibly relieved to find an international buyer becase not only have there been huge technical issues, the project has been close to the chopping block in congress. Indeed, after only procuring 168 I want to say, the F-22 program has already been cancelled. Needless to say, the F-22 was the basis for the F-35.

I came across a website today that found the F35 in tests is no better than latest Russian technology(4.5) and certainly not better than the next Russian variant which it claims is better then the F22...idiotic game of whose got a bigger penis is all this is....

[Smallc]

I came across a website today that found the F35 in tests is no better than latest Russian technology(4.5)

And where did you find that? The only thing I came across were websites that talk about simulations that involved the Russian built planes destroying the refuelling planes for the F-35.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....I came across a website today that found the F35 in tests is no better than latest Russian technology(4.5) and certainly not better than the next Russian variant which it claims is better then the F22...idiotic game of whose got a bigger penis is all this is....

Does "bigger penis" game apply to stop gap procurements of rotary winged aircraft (CH-47s), main battle tanks (Leopard 2A6M ), and broke dick submarines (former Upholder class)? There is a definite trend here.

Maybe Canada can borrow some F-35s from Australia!

[Wilber]

ya ask any airline exec why they don't use jumbo's on short haul hops or on regional routes...use the proper airplane for the job, distance, fuel, load...since west jet doen't do long haul flights they have no need other types of planes...

True, so why have two types of fighters?

[Wilber]

and who protects all those other countries that are never attacked or invaded?...who's afraid of things that go bump in the night? apparently canadian conservatives...

Maybe we should just contract some other country to defend us, that seems to be what you are saying.

[Moonbox]

I came across a website today that found the F35 in tests is no better than latest Russian technology(4.5) and certainly not better than the next Russian variant which it claims is better then the F22...idiotic game of whose got a bigger penis is all this is....

Show us a reference and I can tell you how stupid that website was. The only unfavorable simulation for the F-35 against Russian technology was where a bunch of Sukhoi's shot down the F-35's refueling plane. The test did not pit the F-35 against the Russian fighters.

You're trying so hard to discredit the F-35 you're discrediting yourself with how bad your arguments are.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Moonbox

[nicky10013]

Show us a reference and I can tell you how stupid that website was. The only unfavorable simulation for the F-35 against Russian technology was where a bunch of Sukhoi's shot down the F-35's refueling plane. The test did not pit the F-35 against the Russian fighters.

You're trying so hard to discredit the F-35 you're discrediting yourself with how bad your arguments are.

As opposed to people claiming that we SHOULD be purchasing these planes at 140 million a pop before maintanence because these planes apparently can make hard landings?

[Alta4ever]

As opposed to people claiming that we SHOULD be purchasing these planes at 140 million a pop before maintanence because these planes apparently can make hard landings?

You do realize that the DND draws up the requirements for equipment for them to meet a specific purpose, while operating under complicated field conditions that many other countries simply do not have.

For someone who trusts everything the civil service says as laid out in the thread about the census, why do you not trust DND to be able to pick the right equipment for the task at had.

[nicky10013]

You do realize that the DND draws up the requirements for equipment for them to meet a specific purpose, while operating under complicated field conditions that many other countries simply do not have.

For someone who trusts everything the civil service says as laid out in the thread about the census, why do you not trust DND to be able to pick the right equipment for the task at had.

The non-civilian aspect of the DND has an agenda. What agenda does Stats Can have other than providing the most accurate information possible?

[Moonbox]

The non-civilian aspect of the DND has an agenda. What agenda does Stats Can have other than providing the most accurate information possible?

Really? Is that why you think that STATS Canada wants a mandatory long form census? It couldn't have ANYTHING to do with them wanting to keep their golden ticket jobs???

Edited July 29, 2010 by Moonbox

[nicky10013]

Really? Is that why you think that STATS Canada wants a mandatory long form census? It couldn't have ANYTHING to do with them wanting to keep their golden ticket jobs???

They have to send out quite a few more forms to make the voluntary form anywhere close to as accurate as the mandatory form, so something tells me it isn't the case. They'll get far more money for the voluntary form. However, their reputation comes from accuracy. So, not suprisingly, despite the influx of cash (which no one wants to talk about), they want the mandatory form.

As for money, not only will the physical census cost 5 million more, the CPC wants to pay for 30 million in advertising to make sure that people actually do the voluntary long form. And these people are supposedly fiscally conservative? Get the fuck out of here.

[Alta4ever]

The non-civilian aspect of the DND has an agenda. What agenda does Stats Can have other than providing the most accurate information possible?

The fact they have a vested interest in keeping their jobs, the civil service doesn't like it when governments try to reduce the size of their bureaucracy.

[nicky10013]

The fact they have a vested interest in keeping their jobs, the civil service doesn't like it when governments try to reduce the size of their bureaucracy.

Like I said, this voluntary census form will actually increase the size of the bureaucracy and money spent, not reduce it.

[wyly]

And where did you find that? The only thing I came across were websites that talk about simulations that involved the Russian built planes destroying the refuelling planes for the F-35.

I came across it a couple of days ago unfortunetly to keep my computer working fast I delete history/cookies every day if i come across it again I'll save it...it involved austrailian assesment in regards to the SU30, the SU30 has better detection systems for a F35 to strike will require it to "turn on" giving up any of it's stealth ability as the SU will pick up on it's heat and radiation signature...and one on one combat the SU was a superior fighter at close range...

[Alta4ever]

Like I said, this voluntary census form will actually increase the size of the bureaucracy and money spent, not reduce it.

How many hours of lost production do they have when they are calling and harassing people to fill out the mandatory census. Sorry but it will get smaller.

[wyly]

True, so why have two types of fighters?

look up India's reason for doing so, they refer to it as heavy and light fighters...India is similar in size to Canada so similar requirements...

and an all-around do everything plane has never worked in the the past and this one won't either, it'll do many things ok but be great at none of them...replace the A-10 as a close ground support weapon? it'll never match the A-10's ability...

Edited July 30, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

Maybe we should just contract some other country to defend us, that seems to be what you are saying.

what I'm saying is we have no enemies...who protects Costa Rica with no armed forces? why haven't they been attacked by their neighbours or the Chinese?...if any country with the ability to invade us wanted to do so we couldn't do a thing about it, we'd be totally neutralized in a matter of days...so why spend billions on something we cannot prevent?...why would a country invade us for resources we're quite willing to sell them(and have)?...the only country likely to attack us is our neighbour and if they decided to our military airports would be neutralized within hours and all 60-70 J35's would be useless junk...